[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 33: Ohhh Honey It Is Already a Disaster.....

[Dandruff]

5 minutes ago, Jrodseyeliner said:

And yet Jill is shunned???  That is the part I don’t get. 

Jill confronted JB's authority over her and the money she was owed.  Josh, as far as we know, hasn't.  But if Josh goes to prison, JB won't have control over him.  JB is payng big $$s to defend Josh.

It's a thought, anyway.

[anjulibai]

I don't know, I think JB will still have control over Josh in prison. What would Josh do when he got out? He's need JB to lean on. Josh is ever under JB's thumb.

[DalmatianCat]

3 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

The Duggars have a history of blinding themselves to the seriousness of what Josh does/has done once he has “repented” after being punished/sent to pray and work “therapy” etc.   Will they finally see the light?  (I think they won’t.  I hope I am wrong.)

To be fair…the first time Josh got caught his sisters were all minors and had to go along with their parents plan. Other than possibly deciding to ignore Josh and not speak to him (and it was a big family….I’m sure days could go by without speaking to someone if you didn’t want to), there wasn’t much they could to get away from him.

As adults, we have no indication that any of them leave their kids alone with Josh or Anna to babysit. Jill doesn’t, that’s for sure. Joy doesn’t seem all that close to Anna. Jessa goes to the big house a lot, but we don’t know that she leaves her children alone there while Josh is around. Jinger obviously doesn’t. Kendra and Lauren all seem like they’d call on their mothers/sisters for babysitting before Anna. So just since they haven’t come out and said “We will never leave our kids alone with Josh” doesn’t mean they weren’t already never leaving them alone with him or have decided that since the latest allegations. 

[Cults-r-us]

4 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I think all of us here can all agree that he is a creep and a person we don’t want around children.

The question, however, is how does his family see him?  

 

He probably creeps them all out. They smile and nod and make nice, but keep their distance.

[viii]

1 hour ago, anjulibai said:

I don't know, I think JB will still have control over Josh in prison. What would Josh do when he got out? He's need JB to lean on. Josh is ever under JB's thumb.

Plus Anna and the M kids will still be depending on JB. 

10 minutes ago, Cults-r-us said:

He probably creeps them all out. They smile and nod and make nice, but keep their distance.

This is such naive, wishful thinking. The Duggar family are not creeped out by Josh. He is their beloved son and brother. He is a part of every family gathering - he's in wedding parties, he's at game nights, etc. They have 'forgiven' him and he is fully involved in their lives. There is zero distancing. 

What his siblings actually think - we have no idea. I would hope they are completely repulsed but... 

[Jrodseyeliner]

3 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Just a thought. You know how most of us adults, especially those of us with kids or who had raised kids, have a financial plan in place? I would love to sit down with JB and Michelle to ask them what their master, financial plan was as they  grew their family to an astronomical size, isolated and refused to educate the children. What were they thinking? And for a long time, Josh was the only married child, so could they not see that he really could not support a growing family all on his own? I don’t want to think that JB or M are dumb as boxes of rocks (but then again they sold their family to the media as pure and above it all, yet harbored Josh, sooooo), they had to know that the show would eventually go away. 
Does JB really think he can support 19 (JIll out, Tyler in) large families and fund he and Michelle’s old age needs? Unless he is doing illegal activitie$, which wouldn’t surprise me, there’s just no way. 
 

How do you plan on Supporting 19 kids and all their kids, without any skills, jobs or intention of working? I DON’T GET IT!

ETA- I screamed “what’s your plan” at my adolescent (at the time) kids so often they use the phrase to mock me now that they are grown adults. “What’s your plan, mom”! My poor son had it the worst. His name is Daniel. What’s your plan, Dan really rolls nicely off of the tongue. 

I know right??? Like how is this logistically going to happen???  This is not even factoring in any emergencies that occur in life. 
 

surely one of those kids dreams of doing something that requires an education or working for someone??  

[Nike]

6 hours ago, DalmatianCat said:

 

6 hours ago, DalmatianCat said:

...As adults, we have no indication that any of them leave their kids alone with Josh or Anna to babysit. Jill doesn’t, that’s for sure. Joy doesn’t seem all that close to Anna. Jessa goes to the big house a lot, but we don’t know that she leaves her children alone there while Josh is around. Jinger obviously doesn’t. Kendra and Lauren all seem like they’d call on their mothers/sisters for babysitting before Anna. So just since they haven’t come out and said “We will never leave our kids alone with Josh” doesn’t mean they weren’t already never leaving them alone with him or have decided that since the latest allegations. 

Personally I wouldn't even take my children there if Josh was around even if I was planning to stay too. With a house that size and having more than one child to keep and eye on, and thousands of siblings to distract me, the risks are still huge.

I wouldn't even want Josh to LOOK at  my children and have whatever sick fantasies come to his filthy mind. 

 

[Melissa1977]

8 hours ago, anjulibai said:

I don't know, I think JB will still have control over Josh in prison. What would Josh do when he got out? He's need JB to lean on. Josh is ever under JB's thumb.

I agree. Plus life in prison is harder if you don't have money to buy things there. I'm talking about the stuff the prison sells to immates, like snacks, toothpaste etc. I think those "prison stores" are common, aren't they?. Josh will need daddy's money more than ever. 

[DalmatianCat]

6 hours ago, Nike said:

 

Personally I wouldn't even take my children there if Josh was around even if I was planning to stay too. With a house that size and having more than one child to keep and eye on, and thousands of siblings to distract me, the risks are still huge.

I wouldn't even want Josh to LOOK at  my children and have whatever sick fantasies come to his filthy mind. 

 

I definitely agree! I would never let my children be around Josh and wouldn’t leave them in Anna’s care either.

I’m just trying to look at this from the perspective of the adult kids who have only begun making adult decisions with a spouse in the last few years. I think they learned how to compartmentalize Josh’s behavior. I can see how the first time around they had to go along with their parents (and they may have genuinely thought Josh was “fixed”).
When the Ashley Madison thing came around it was mortifying and shameful, but lots of people let their kids be around family members after they have an affair/cheat on their spouse. Plus, outside of Jill and Jessa, the rest of the kids were still unmarried and living at home.
By the statements several of the married kids put out this time (that were released separately from their parents), I think we’ll see a different reaction if—for some horrid reason—Josh is able to get the charges dropped. I don’t expect them to release statements saying they will no longer allow their kids to be around him, but I’m sure there will be lots of family discussions and lines drawn in the sand privately, and if any couple isn’t ready to use the nuclear option like Jill, they might just stop showing up at family events when Josh is there. And that is only *if* he can get the charges dropped with no restrictions. But, I don’t think that’s going to happen. I think he’s going away for a long time and it will spare some of the more enmeshed kids the need to figure out what to do. Now, if they did still let their kids around him after all this, then yes, I would definitely be questioning their judgement! But so far, that hasn’t happened. 

[JenniferJuniper]

6 hours ago, Nike said:

I wouldn't even want Josh to LOOK at  my children and have whatever sick fantasies come to his filthy mind. 

This.  And this is one of the things that bothers me most about any of the Duggars with young girls (or boys for that matter).  Maybe they truly believed he wasn't a pedophile (anymore).  Maybe the fact that he married his wife was sufficient proof for them.  Maybe they were secretly relieved over Ashley Madison and the cheating with adult women. I don't know. They are ignorant, shallow people.  But now?  After hearing about what turns him on, I cannot see how any of his siblings can allow him to even look at their little girls knowing what was surely going through his mind when he did.  And knowing what he'd probably do if he got a chance.

Josh won't be in prison long enough for any of those gazillion baby granddaughters to grow up. Jim Bob will surely convince himself that Josh has been redeemed by the blood of lamb by the time he's out.  And as it stands now, with just a few exceptions, Jim Bob has a great deal of control over the parents of those granddaughters.  My advice would be that they start planning right now for a future not controlled by him or they'll surely be required to attend future Family Fun nights with that smirking pig sitting in the corner, leering at their kids.

[SassyPants]

3 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

This.  And this is one of the things that bothers me most about any of the Duggars with young girls (or boys for that matter).  Maybe they truly believed he wasn't a pedophile (anymore).  Maybe the fact that he married his wife was sufficient proof for them.  Maybe they were secretly relieved over Ashley Madison and the cheating with adult women. I don't know. They are ignorant, shallow people.  But now?  After hearing about what turns him on, I cannot see how any of his siblings can allow him to even look at their little girls knowing what was surely going through his mind when he did.  And knowing what he'd probably do if he got a chance.

Josh won't be in prison long enough for any of those gazillion baby granddaughters to grow up. Jim Bob will surely convince himself that Josh has been redeemed by the blood of lamb by the time he's out.  And as it stands now, with just a few exceptions, Jim Bob has a great deal of control over the parents of those granddaughters.  My advice would be that they start planning right now for a future not controlled by him or they'll surely be required to attend future Family Fun nights with that smirking pig sitting in the corner, leering at their kids.

This would require them coming to terms with and accepting the fact that every household is going to need a steady paycheck, and since most of them have no marketable skills that we know of, their standards of living are going to decrease, dramatically. I think this will be a bitter reality pill to swallow for most of them. A steady paycheck also means showing up on time for work, for decades on end. What a novel concept and huge drag for these people.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

My advice would be that they start planning right now for a future not controlled by him or they'll surely be required to attend future Family Fun nights with that smirking pig sitting in the corner, leering at their kids.

It's shocking how often this happens even in mainstream families.  When I learned something about an extended family member many years ago I was enraged at the ones who refused to believe it, but more disgusted by the ones who did believe it and allowed him in their home for gatherings anyway.  Total shunning is the only response to this realization IMO.

[JenniferJuniper]

3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

It's shocking how often this happens even in mainstream families.  When I learned something about an extended family member many years ago I was enraged at the ones who refused to believe it, but more disgusted by the ones who did believe it and allowed him in their home for gatherings anyway.  Total shunning is the only response to this realization IMO.

Agree.  Creepy uncles are a thing in every culture, and it's up to parents to keep their kids completely away from them. But are Jessa and Ben going to keep their daughter(s) away from Josh if they remain under JB's umbrella of financial protection and JB, as we can anticipate, never sees the light about his son?  Somehow I tend to doubt it.

I don't know the statistics, but Josh's own kids may be safer around him than his nieces and nephews (and before you know it, great nieces and nephews).  I think pedophiles are generally less likely to molest their own children, not that I'd bet more than 10 bucks on Josh.  But his siblings' kids are in grave danger around him, and we can only hope his brothers and sisters grasp this.

[Idlewild]

If I was one of the single siblings who was courting, I’d totally bring forward my wedding so Josh couldn’t attend.

If he cuts a deal I can see him having a relatively short sentence, a couple of years or so. I really think it will be business as usual for JB & M and Anna- they will just act like it didn’t happen.

As for the ‘independent’ siblings, who knows? I think the Vuolos will give him a wide berth, simply because all they care about is their own brand. I’ve no idea about the others- I’d be surprised if any publicly disowned him, they’d just try to avoid having their picture taken with him. Remember as recently as 2017 Derick made a video thanking Josh and Anna for their donation to his ‘ministry’ gofundme- if money is so important you’ll publicly grovel to your wife’s abuser, then I wouldn’t take it as read they’ll all immediately disown him.

[Four is Enough]

6 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I agree. Plus life in prison is harder if you don't have money to buy things there. I'm talking about the stuff the prison sells to immates, like snacks, toothpaste etc. I think those "prison stores" are common, aren't they?. Josh will need daddy's money more than ever. 

Prison commissary is expensive, too. I don't know if it's the same in federal prison, but everything had to be purchased through the commissary, not sent in by family, including underwear, socks, TShirts, shoes, snacks, coffee, toothpaste, soap, razors, toothbrushes, television, game consoles, fans, you name it. We could send books, but they couldn't come from us, they had to come directly from the publisher. (can't send drugs that way) We couldn't send him a birthday card with glitter on it, because drugs. He could purchase one and send it to us, though, because they vetted their suppliers. 

Our prison visits had NO contact save a 2 second hug at the end of the visit directly in front of a corrections officer.  Those tables where you sit across from the inmate and hold hands as shown on tv? Doesn't happen in my state. Even the detention center, you're separated by a thick lucite window with some holes for speaking, OR there's a phone you talk into. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, SassyPants said:

This would require them coming to terms with and accepting the fact that every household is going to need a steady paycheck, and since most of them have no marketable skills that we know of, their standards of living are going to decrease, dramatically. I think this will be a bitter reality pill to swallow for most of them. A steady paycheck also means showing up on time for work, for decades on end. What a novel concept and huge drag for these people.

I agree it will be tough for them, but people have done this for millennia and they'd better suck it up and get on with being self-supporting.  

Most families, if traced back far enough, have some very comfortable branches with money that generation by generation (or even in one) dwindles and they become working people like the rest of us.  Heck, everyone of European descent has nobility in their tree going far enough back, but the vast majority of us don't have castles and diamond tiaras on hand, hence needing jobs.  

Whole families have lost fortunes after wars or economic collapse and people had to roll up their sleeves and find a way to feed themselves and so if it's good enough for all of recorded history it's good enough for the Duggars.  

[JenniferJuniper]

1 minute ago, Four is Enough said:

Prison commissary is expensive, too. I don't know if it's the same in federal prison, but everything had to be purchased through the commissary, not sent in by family, including underwear, socks, TShirts, shoes, snacks, coffee, toothpaste, soap, razors, toothbrushes, television, game consoles, fans, you name it.

Commissary items and prices for the medium security federal prison in Arkansas.  Josh may well end up somewhere else, but it's likely to be similar wherever he lands. He'll be going through those Other Food Items like it's nobody's business.

https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/fom/FOM_commlist121918.pdf

[SassyPants]

2 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I agree it will be tough for them, but people have done this for millennia and they'd better suck it up and get on with being self-supporting.  

Most families, if traced back far enough, have some very comfortable branches with money that generation by generation (or even in one) dwindles and they become working people like the rest of us.  Heck, everyone of European descent has nobility in their tree going far enough back, but the vast majority of us don't have castles and diamond tiaras on hand, hence needing jobs.  

Whole families have lost fortunes after wars or economic collapse and people had to roll up their sleeves and find a way to feed themselves and so if it's good enough for all of recorded history it's good enough for the Duggars.  

I certainly don’t believe that they are above working for a living, but I’m wondering how easily one can become deprogrammed from the values and messaging that they have heard their entire lives. JB (and Gothard) are anti working outside of the home or for any business other than the one you own, correct? 31 YO Jana has never been to school, held a job or if rumors are correct, never garnered a paycheck. Does she even have a SS #? Probably, as JB would need that to claim her on his taxes…wait, can a 31 YO living at home still be used as a deduction?  They truly exist live  in a parallel universe.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

39 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I certainly don’t believe that they are above working for a living, but I’m wondering how easily one can become deprogrammed from the values and messaging that they have heard their entire lives. JB (and Gothard) are anti working outside of the home or for any business other than the one you own, correct? 31 YO Jana has never been to school, held a job or if rumors are correct, never garnered a paycheck. Does she even have a SS #? Probably, as JB would need that to claim her on his taxes…wait, can a 31 YO living at home still be used as a deduction?  They truly exist live  in a parallel universe.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply you thought they should be above working, I agree with you wholeheartedly that this will be a huge culture shock for them.

And yes, they are against working for anyone outside of their fellow cultists lest you work for an "unbeliever" or have to take direction from a woman!  Insert fundy pearl clutching here.  

She has an SSN, they all do.  No way JB wasn't writing off all of his precious flowers deductions and kids need an SSN.  You can claim an infant if they were born during that tax year without one, but would need it by the next.  

You can claim kiddults as a deduction if they meet the criteria quoted below.  

Quote

You can claim dependent children until they turn 19, unless they go to college, in which case they can be claimed until they turn 24. If your child is 24 years or older, they can still be claimed as a "qualifying relative" if they meet the qualifying relative test or they are permanently and totally disabled.

• Quote

   

  • Relationship – the person must have lived with taxpayer for the entire year as a household member or must be the taxpayer’s parent, grandparent, child, stepchild (by blood or adoption), foster child, sibling, step-sibling, or a descendant of any of these, in-laws, or any other blood relation
  • Gross Income – the person must have made less than $4,300 in 2020
  • Support – taxpayer must have provided more than half of the person’s total support during the year; any income received but not spent is not counted as part of a person’s support

   

  Above is the relevant part of a qualifying relative test.  So yeah, if she doesn't make more than $4300 a year with her influencer gig or whatever other side jobs she does he can still claim her as a dependent.  

46 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

Commissary items and prices for the medium security federal prison in Arkansas.  Josh may well end up somewhere else, but it's likely to be similar wherever he lands. He'll be going through those Other Food Items like it's nobody's business.

https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/fom/FOM_commlist121918.pdf

For the stuff I recognize it looks like most is below market price.  TIL that people in jail have to buy their own toilet paper.  Really?  I both do and don't want to know what the people do who don't have anyone sending them money.  

Edited June 11, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy

[JenniferJuniper]

20 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

For the stuff I recognize it looks like most is below market price.  TIL that people in jail have to buy their own toilet paper.  Really?  I both do and don't want to know what the people do who don't have anyone sending them money.  

Ah, but I have an answer.  According to my BIL's wife, federal prisoners are supplied with a limited amount of the cheapest toilet paper every week.  She kept hers in her locker as it was at risk of being stolen.  If you ran out before the end of that week, you'd have to either borrow, steal, or buy more.

[Antipatriarch]

2 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

Prison commissary is expensive, too.

Phone calls and email have become a big money-maker for prisons in some areas. They outsource it to companies that set the prices high and give the state a cut. It's often unreliable and/or requires waiting in line, but if you want that contact with the outside, you pay the big bucks.

[Nike]

1 hour ago, JenniferJuniper said:

Ah, but I have an answer.  According to my BIL's wife, federal prisoners are supplied with a limited amount of the cheapest toilet paper every week.  She kept hers in her locker as it was at risk of being stolen.  If you ran out before the end of that week, you'd have to either borrow, steal, or buy more.

Why does the thought of Josh panicking about running out of toilet paper makes me giggly with happiness? 

[shesinsane]

3 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

She has an SSN, they all do.  No way JB wasn't writing off all of his precious flowers deductions and kids need an SSN.  You can claim an infant if they were born during that tax year without one, but would need it by the next.  

Fun fact: 1987 was the first year Social Security numbers were required for every dependent claimed in a tax return. When comparing tax returns from 1986 versus 1987, roughly 7 million dependent children appear to have left their households. 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/declaration-of-non-dependents/

 

[Expectopatronus]

3 hours ago, JenniferJuniper said:

Ah, but I have an answer.  According to my BIL's wife, federal prisoners are supplied with a limited amount of the cheapest toilet paper every week.  She kept hers in her locker as it was at risk of being stolen.  If you ran out before the end of that week, you'd have to either borrow, steal, or buy more.

Isn’t that a human rights issue? Hygiene should be a guaranteed right which includes toilet paper, Kleenex, soap, toothpaste, toothbrush, deodorant, pads etc. Ideally, prison should be focused on rehabilitation which means protecting the dignity of the inmates. I don’t care what someone has done, they deserve basic, human dignity, nutritious food, medical care, therapy and education/work. 

[nokidsmom]

5 hours ago, SassyPants said:

This would require them coming to terms with and accepting the fact that every household is going to need a steady paycheck, and since most of them have no marketable skills that we know of, their standards of living are going to decrease, dramatically. I think this will be a bitter reality pill to swallow for most of them. A steady paycheck also means showing up on time for work, for decades on end. What a novel concept and huge drag for these people

This is where their parents completely failed them by limiting their education and opportunities.   Given the number of kids, JB and J'chelle had more reason than most to encourage all of them into paying work early on so they could develop job skills necessary to obtain the steady paychecks to provide for themselves   Because the prudent thing would be to expect that things could go wrong (and it has) so now they are facing massive legal bills and providing for eleventy kids, spouses, and grandkids.  Had more adult children been encouraged to become more independent, even the adult children at home, JB and J'chelle's financial pressures would have been a LOT less.

This is the price that JB pays for control.  I am not sorry for him but am sorry for the dependent family members who may need to scramble to make their own income and do not have the necessary education/experience/work skills to get a job that comes even close to maintaining the lifestyle they have become accustomed to.   Sure, I suppose some of them can go back to school and train, but there's so much lacking in terms of basic education, knowledge of how the work REALLY works, in short there's so much ground to cover before true independence, in their cases meaning no longer relying on JB's money or living on his properties.  Which means some pretty lean times are coming for a lot of them.

I would not be surprised that as painful as things have been for Jill, she might be breathing a sigh of relief that she and Derick forged their own path and it was a good thing to make JB cough up some money, even with attorney involvement.    They can pretty much carry on unaffected by whatever financial hits come JB's way.

Edited June 11, 2021 by nokidsmom