[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 33: Ohhh Honey It Is Already a Disaster.....

[EmCatlyn]

5 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

That's another thing. Brenda knew that her daughter was being sexually assaulted. So far as we know, Anna knows that Josh watched CSA, and there's no evidence of anything else.

So Brenda ignored her 9-year's statement that she was being raped. Anna is ignoring the feds statement that her husband watched CSA.

Brenda's denial is far worse than Anna's, imo. But Anna is thought to be foolish for remaining with her husband.  ….

Am I missing something?  Jessica didn’t make a “statement” when she was nine — or at any time before the letter that she wrote at age 23.

This is Jessica’s account in “My Story”:

Quote

An initial awareness of questionable behavior began when I was around nine years old. Something (I’m still not sure what) caused my mother to become suspicious of my father’s interactions. I didn’t realize there was zero evidence of anything specific and all I did was nod uncertainly when a few general questions were asked by my mother. I heard my mother raise her voice to my father for the first time in my life and I thought the adults would figure it out. I didn’t understand that my father simply denied any wrongdoing and became more secretive and dangerous from then on.

What I understand from this quote (bolding mine) is that Brenda asked “general questions” and that Jessica nodded “uncertainly.” To me it does not seem Brenda “knew” anything for sure.  Jessica did not open up and tell her mother what was going on. It appears that Jessica said nothing and that her father denied the accusations and was “more secretive” (that is, hid the abuse better) in the future.  

The story goes on to say that when she was 23, after a series of events, she finally shared with her mother a document describing her abuse. (See below. Bolding is again, mine.)

Quote

I personally had never shared the details of what he had done to me. Doing so would put me in danger but it had to be done. I sat down and wrote a fourteen page document about the worst abuse. It poured out of me in terrible detail and it was the first time I felt the power of its story. I showed the letter to my mother who was rightly outraged. My father refused to read it and accused me of lying. I had taken my first step towards speaking out, but I had shared my story with another victim trapped in the same prison as me. My father lashed out at both of us with whatever threats necessary to maintain his control and began consistently threatening my mom with the lives of the entire family

In short, her account is that her mother did not know, that she had not told her mother until this point and that this is when her mother was “outraged” and had to stop denying her fears/suspicions.  And at this point her father starts threatening their lives.   (Is there a later and/or better account that makes it clear that Brenda did know?)

Now, I will grant that Brenda probably suspected but didn’t want to face that in addition to beatings and so forth, her daughters were being sexually assaulted.  But suspecting is not the same as knowing.  I definitely think she failed her daughters. (I think she failed all her children by not getting out of that marriage the first time he hit one of them.) And I don’t want to seem to be saying that it was okay she didn’t leave him because she thought he was “just” beating his kids, not raping them. (The beatings are reason enough to leave, in my opinion.)

I am just concerned that we should have the story straight.  According to Jessica, she did not tell or try to tell her mother about the abuse when she was nine, and Brenda only knew for sure when she read the document Jessica wrote at age 23.  So if there is another account, I want to know it.  (It sure is a fascinating rabbit hole!)

Back to Anna, I agree that she and Brenda have some of the same problems (denial, no money, etc.) and that what the Willis father did is a lot worse than what Josh has done (as far as we know).  And I agree with you that it makes no sense to give Brenda a “pass” but be hard on Anna for not leaving Josh.

Personally, I think they both made mistakes and both have failed their kids.  I am not inclined to condemn either of them more than the other, but as I said in an earlier post, I think people may be easier on Brenda because her failure is in the past while we are seeing Anna not leave Josh every day news about them comes up.  It is not rational, but I think some of us want her to leave so badly that we get angry because she shows no signs of leaving.   

Edited July 30, 2021 by EmCatlyn
Add/clarify

[Jackie3]

1 hour ago, EmCatlyn said:

Something (I’m still not sure what) caused my mother to become suspicious of my father’s interactions. I didn’t realize there was zero evidence of anything specific and all I did was nod uncertainly when a few general questions were asked by my mother. I heard my mother raise her voice to my father for the first time in my life and I thought the adults would figure it out. I didn’t understand that my father simply denied any wrongdoing and became more secretive and dangerous from then on.

Brenda knew. Jessica uses vague language because using explicit language is very triggering.

Here's what Jessica tells us:

1. Brenda became suspicious Jessica is being sexually abused by her father. She goes to Jessica to find out if her suspicions are true.

2. She asks Jessica some "general" questions ("Did Daddy ever. . .")

3. Jessica says yes, he did.

4. Based on what she hears, Brenda becomes angry at Toby. So angry that she raises her voice to him for the first time.

What could have happened to make her yell at Toby? Well, Jessica is writing about being sexually assaulted by her father.  Would she suddenly include a story about some minor matter, like Toby forgetting her birthday, and this made her mom yell? Of course not. This is obviously about the sexual abuse.

5. Unsurprisingly,  her father denied "wrongdoing." (It's clearly too difficult for Jessica to write "rape")

Brenda knew. Why else would she have been angry? She may have chosen not to ask for details, but she knew what was happening, or she wouldn't have yelled at her husband.

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Jackie3

[Idlewild]

I don’t think Anna will move back into the big house- last time it was a short term thing and she had fewer children. 
This time he is claiming innocence and she is standing by him- business as usual for Anna. The Duggars will no doubt support her as Anna has never made any effort to support her family financially ( other than some half hearted shilling on Instagram and she must know that isn’t an option now).

She married into this circus and actively sought publicity and was a cheerleader for JB & M. She now has them painted into a corner- she played the submissive wife role so well her only option for making money is a tell all & JB isn’t having that. You can tell from the statement they issued after the show was cancelled they still think they’re pretty awesome people. 
So she’ll stay in a Duggar property, continue to have her kids hang out with their aunts and cousins and pretend all is fine. 
If Josh is convicted or pleads guilty, she’ll probably reassess, but for now it’s Keep Calm and Carry On. 

[gustava]

6 hours ago, Idlewild said:

She now has them painted into a corner- she played the submissive wife role so well her only option for making money is a tell all & JB isn’t having that

Is Anna savvy enough to know that writing a tell all might be a money maker for her and something she can hold over JB's head?

[QuiverFullofBooks]

10 minutes ago, gustava said:

Is Anna savvy enough to know that writing a tell all might be a money maker for her and something she can hold over JB's head?

No, but he is.

[Idlewild]

I think Anna knows her power well enough. She plays the role of the submissive wife but she’s interested in politics and prior to Josh’s arrest was active on Twitter and Parler.

If she wanted to reach out to a sympathetic writer I think she’d know where to start. I doubt she has to even mention the subject to JB- they both know what could happen if he doesn’t play nice.

[AprilQuilt]

12 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

Exactly. However, any mother who hears "Dad got into my bed while I was sleeping and took off his pajamas." is going to ask more questions. Brenda was a grown woman and knew what that could mean. Very few young children have the correct language, yet pedophiles are caught and convicted.

I do agree, but I know that Brenda is hardly the first or the only woman in this kind of situation to basically wish it all away. If my daughter said any such thing to me I would do my absolute damnedest to work out precisely what it was she was reporting - but even so there would also be a huge part of me that didn't want to believe that of my partner. Add in coercive control and other abuse and it all gets much harder. It sounds like she confronted Toby about it and he gaslighted her, and she stopped pursuing it. If he was financially, physically and emotionally abusing her and the children, she was probably pretty used to doubting her judgement and rolling over for him. This was just another time.

And it's one thing even to know that your child is being abused: it's another to have the confidence and general wherewithal to advocate for them; to know who to speak to and how to get yourself taken seriously; to get the best professionals onside to make your case in court; to put your family through a trial that might well not come out your way, in which case your abuser is still free but now he's MAD. Oh, and you've got legal bills to pay. And it's maybe been in the news, and now your community knows all your business.

When abusers are caught and convicted, it's because a really long and shaky process came to fruition. A lot of people can't see it through, let alone take the first steps. Like I say, I like to imagine that if it were me I'd be a woman possessed re making my child safe and getting justice for them, but my life is totally different from Brenda's.

[Jackie3]

23 minutes ago, AprilQuilt said:

When abusers are caught and convicted, it's because a really long and shaky process came to fruition. A lot of people can't see it through, let alone take the first steps. Like I say, I like to imagine that if it were me I'd be a woman possessed re making my child safe and getting justice for them, but my life is totally different from Brenda's.

So isn't that true for Anna, too? Of course, Brenda's road would've been a hard one. From what you are saying, women with oppressive fundie husbands really can't protect their kids, because the path is so impossible. (Actually, I disagree, because some fundie women have done it). 

But in any event, if Brenda couldn't do it, and that seems understandable, how can Anna? I mean, their situations are really similar. 

[EmCatlyn]

10 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

Brenda knew. Jessica uses vague language because using explicit language is very triggering.

Here's what Jessica tells us:

1. Brenda became suspicious Jessica is being sexually abused by her father. She goes to Jessica to find out if her suspicions are true.

2. She asks Jessica some "general" questions ("Did Daddy ever. . .")

3. Jessica says yes, he did.

4. Based on what she hears, Brenda becomes angry at Toby. So angry that she raises her voice to him for the first time.

What could have happened to make her yell at Toby? Well, Jessica is writing about being sexually assaulted by her father.  Would she suddenly include a story about some minor matter, like Toby forgetting her birthday, and this made her mom yell? Of course not. This is obviously about the sexual abuse.

5. Unsurprisingly,  her father denied "wrongdoing." (It's clearly too difficult for Jessica to write "rape")

Brenda knew. Why else would she have been angry? She may have chosen not to ask for details, but she knew what was happening, or she wouldn't have yelled at her husband.

 

Interesting. I guess it comes down to how you read the account.   I don’t interpret it as “Brenda knew.”  I interpret it as “Brenda suspected.”  She  was angry and yelled and then Toby claimed it was all lies and Brenda accepted that.  She continued suspicious, but as Jessica tells it, her mother didn’t know for sure.  Yes, it was denial, and yes she should have left.  I just read Jessica’s account to say that her mother didn’t know for sure about the sexual abuse until at 23 Jessica wrote it all down.

As I said before, I think Brenda “should” have left the first time he laid a heavy hand on one of the kids. She clearly didn’t protect her kids, even if she didn’t know (for sure) about the sexual abuse.  

However, I do think that Jessica sees her mother as a fellow victim, as someone who was powerless in the family and could see no way of escape because Toby was threatening to kill her or one of the kids.

As for Anna, we have nothing to suggest that she is physically abused or that Josh pays enough attention to the kids to beat them.  However, she clearly is in denial about Josh and any possible sexual threat to her kids.  Again, I hold her responsible.

[Coconut Flan]

Carry on here: