[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 33: Ohhh Honey It Is Already a Disaster.....

[Snarkasarus Rex]

12 minutes ago, JanasTattooParlor said:

Has anyone looked at their first post? It literally starts off with “Nothing about David or I was prearranged. We chose each other.” Unless they’ve been reading here or Reddit, why would they start a public Instagram and start telling their side of the story? No one in the non-fundie world outside of snark groups know who they are. Also, starting their story off that way really makes it seem like the opposite is true whether she realizes that or not. Oh and they left the comments on and every single one is negative or telling her good luck being related to the Rodriguii. Post in spoiler for anyone who doesn’t have an Instagram. 
 

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I don’t get why they did this either…unless it’s a very ill-advised attempt to convince ‘people’ that their relationship and the Rebers’ custodial duties aren’t some kind of quid pro quo?

[Mama Mia]

40 minutes ago, JanasTattooParlor said:

Has anyone looked at their first post? It literally starts off with “Nothing about David or I was prearranged. We chose each other.” Unless they’ve been reading here or Reddit, why would they start a public Instagram and start telling their side of the story? No one in the non-fundie world outside of snark groups know who they are. Also, starting their story off that way really makes it seem like the opposite is true whether she realizes that or not. Oh and they left the comments on and every single one is negative or telling her good luck being related to the Rodriguii. Post in spoiler for anyone who doesn’t have an Instagram. 
 

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I’d imagine not only would they see snarky comments around the general interwebz, plus there is no doubt at least low-key gossip in their general circles. Even extreme cultists must be buzzing about the whole situation. 

[Jinder Roles]

6 hours ago, ALM7 said:

@formergothardite, thank you so much for explaining the once saved-always saved doctrine.  I've managed to pick up on bits and pieces of eternal security, but I was never able to pin down the general concept followed by the majority of Evangelicals.  In fact, I was flipping channels and heard a pastor on TV say, there was only one way to lose one's salvation, to commit the unpardonable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.  As a life-long Atheist, these concepts are so foreign to me.  Thank you again for explaining the doctrine.

Few other questions ...

-Do families like the Duggars etc. believe in the elect? 

-How do families like the Duggars as one example, get their heavenly rewards, is this where the concept of good works comes in?

-Why is every thing about Jesus.  God is certainly mentioned a lot, but not like Jesus.  Also, they hardly ever mention the Holy Spirit, don't they believe each entity is one, but separate?  Why is the emphasis always on Jesus?    

Thank you again, it just gets so confusing, and I know from reading your posts for years, you understand their doctrine.

It can be confusing and certainly not everything is straight forward

1. It depends. Definitely Ben and Jeremy are Calvinistic leaning and probably subscribe to the elect. The others, not so sure. I'm pretty sure the Duggars are not Reformed Christians so maybe not. I think it depends on the child. 

2. Kind of?! Yes, Christians who are steadfast in their faith my get some heavenly rewards but the concept is that you can't earn heavenly rewards. You are inherently unworthy and God chooses to bless you or not. Paul does say "faith without works is dead" but one cannot gain salvation through works, only faith

3. Jesus is literally the cornerstone of Christianity. He is the saviour of the world through his sacrifice so naturally Christians tend of focus on him. Yes, God is important but Jesus (who is also God lol) is the way Christians receive salvation and learn lessons (especially about love, how to live, the new covenant etc.) 

 

Again, the Duggars' doctrine is not straight-forward. Theology is supremely important to them but equally as important is their rituals and lifestyle. 

As for Josh, I've got no idea if he's a believer or not. Only he can answer that. But I do think it's possible to have an earnest belief in Jesus/God and do horrible things or believe horrible things. It happens all the time. 

 

TBH, I no longer believe in the Christian stuff but was raised in the Baptist faith and so a lot of the theology I grew up around is similar to the Duggars. 

[ALM7]

1 hour ago, Jinder Roles said:

It can be confusing and certainly not everything is straight forward

1. It depends. Definitely Ben and Jeremy are Calvinistic leaning and probably subscribe to the elect. The others, not so sure. I'm pretty sure the Duggars are not Reformed Christians so maybe not. I think it depends on the child. 

2. Kind of?! Yes, Christians who are steadfast in their faith my get some heavenly rewards but the concept is that you can't earn heavenly rewards. You are inherently unworthy and God chooses to bless you or not. Paul does say "faith without works is dead" but one cannot gain salvation through works, only faith

3. Jesus is literally the cornerstone of Christianity. He is the saviour of the world through his sacrifice so naturally Christians tend of focus on him. Yes, God is important but Jesus (who is also God lol) is the way Christians receive salvation and learn lessons (especially about love, how to live, the new covenant etc.) 

 

Again, the Duggars' doctrine is not straight-forward. Theology is supremely important to them but equally as important is their rituals and lifestyle. 

As for Josh, I've got no idea if he's a believer or not. Only he can answer that. But I do think it's possible to have an earnest belief in Jesus/God and do horrible things or believe horrible things. It happens all the time. 

 

TBH, I no longer believe in the Christian stuff but was raised in the Baptist faith and so a lot of the theology I grew up around is similar to the Duggars. 

Thank you very much @Jinder Roles.  Dang, in reality, all one needs to do is be a decent human being, have a moral compass, etc., they sure complicate it for themselves! 

Most of my Christian friends are main-stream [Episcopalian, etc], they just don't seem interested in dictating how others should live their life.  I have respect for them, and they have never once tried to convert me Lol.

Edited July 17, 2021 by ALM7
word, as usual

[AussieKrissy]

12 hours ago, LanaBanana said:

David and Hannah have opened a public Instagram account

https://www.instagram.com/p/CRY-ySpsf1A/

Who are they?

edit to add oh is that the reber daughter with the Keller son? 

Edited July 17, 2021 by AussieKrissy

[marmalade]

6 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

Who are they?

edit to add oh is that the reber daughter with the Keller son? 

Yup. They're engaged.

[AussieKrissy]

2 minutes ago, marmalade said:

Yup. They're engaged.

Oh lord I missed the engaged part. I just assumed it was a courtship announcement. Lord the brother looks like Nathan. Some strong sibling matches in that family. The two boys and Anna and Susanna 

[marmalade]

16 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

Oh lord I missed the engaged part. I just assumed it was a courtship announcement. Lord the brother looks like Nathan. Some strong sibling matches in that family. The two boys and Anna and Susanna 

They didn't announce the engagement on that post. David announced it on his private account, now a joint account.

Edited July 17, 2021 by marmalade
Autocorrect strikes again!

[SorenaJ]

Do any Baptist fundies do believers baptism as adult? 
 

Why don’t they all? 

[formergothardite]

4 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

Do any Baptist fundies do believers baptism as adult? 
 

Why don’t they all? 

If you get saved as an adult you get Baptized then. But the general idea is that if a child can get saved they can get baptized.

[SorenaJ]

I just thought, for the Duggars, they would make it into a big celebration, like they do with their graduation, like invite people over, and have a party. I think that's how it is done a lot with infant baptisms, it's a big celebration. Same for confirmation, in the Church of Denmark. 

[fraurosena]

14 hours ago, formergothardite said:

They were supposed to be real things. The crowns filled with jewels we were supposed to go throw at the feet of Jesus at some point in our heavenly stay. The gate of heaven was made out of one giant pearl. The streets were gold. The walls of heaven were made out of blue glass or something like that.  And there was going to be a feast that lasted a thousand years. It is all very weird to think about now. 

That just sounds so incredibly garish and tacky... 

 

[formergothardite]

20 minutes ago, fraurosena said:

That just sounds so incredibly garish and tacky... 

 

It is no wonder that the same people who taught me this also think Trump has impeccable taste when it comes to home decor. 

[Smee]

15 hours ago, formergothardite said:

They were supposed to be real things. The crowns filled with jewels we were supposed to go throw at the feet of Jesus at some point in our heavenly stay. The gate of heaven was made out of one giant pearl. The streets were gold. The walls of heaven were made out of blue glass or something like that.  And there was going to be a feast that lasted a thousand years. It is all very weird to think about now. 

This is interesting to me to read because I’ve been in fundie-lite evangelical churches for half my life and was nodding along to the theology explanations about works and faith and the trinity etc… but all the churches I’ve been in have taken the approach of “we don’t know exactly what heaven will be like but it will be with God and it will be perfect”, and treated the book of Revelation as largely symbolism to denote extravagance and abundance, not a literal description of a physical reality of heaven.

[gustava]

I'm confused about the timing and geography of the Hannah/David engagement. 

What is David doing in Arkansas?  I thought the family lived in Florida.

Did they meet before Josh was put under Reber house arrest?  How long have they been officially engaged?

[formergothardite]

38 minutes ago, Smee said:

This is interesting to me to read because I’ve been in fundie-lite evangelical churches for half my life and was nodding along to the theology explanations about works and faith and the trinity etc… but all the churches I’ve been in have taken the approach of “we don’t know exactly what heaven will be like but it will be with God and it will be perfect”, and treated the book of Revelation as largely symbolism to denote extravagance and abundance, not a literal description of a physical reality of heaven.

I Googled and apparently this description of heaven comes from the book of Revelation. And there are actually 12 gates each made of a giant pearl and each named after one of the twelve tribes of Israel. I suspect the small IFB churches I attended in the 70s and 80s took things way, way more literally than most other denominations. 

It also seems like the mansions idea is possibly the result of a poor translation in the KJV and the original text almost certainly didn't mean Jesus was up in heaven building literal mansions. 

[church_of_dog]

17 hours ago, formergothardite said:

They were supposed to be real things. The crowns filled with jewels we were supposed to go throw at the feet of Jesus at some point in our heavenly stay. The gate of heaven was made out of one giant pearl. The streets were gold. The walls of heaven were made out of blue glass or something like that.  And there was going to be a feast that lasted a thousand years. It is all very weird to think about now. 

But what if once you're in heaven, you're on god's clock -- didn't we hear during the creation story* that a million years equals one second?

* or was it merely from a comedy routine:

Spoiler

A man was praying to God. He said, "God!?" God responded, "Yes?" And the guy said, "Can I ask a question?" "Go right ahead," God said. "God, what is a million years to you?" God said, "A million years to me is only a second." "Hmmm," the man wondered. Then he asked, "God, what is a million dollars worth to you?" God said, "A million dollars to me is as a penny." So the man said, "God, can I have a penny?" And God cheerfully said, "Sure! Just a second."

 

[Travelfan]

16 hours ago, ALM7 said:

Thank you very much @Jinder Roles.  Dang, in reality, all one needs to do is be a decent human being, have a moral compass, etc., they sure complicate it for themselves! 

Most of my Christian friends are main-stream [Episcopalian, etc], they just don't seem interested in dictating how others should live their life.  I have respect for them, and they have never once tried to convert me Lol.

Just being a decent person actually had nothing to do with Hevean or hell when I was growing up, the entire focus was on what you believed. It really screwed with my mind and had me convinced I was going to burn forever after I died for over 30 years until I broke free. I grew up thinking Ted Bundy was in heaven (I guess he had some jailhouse conversion to Christianity?? Which seems ridiculous now) and that Mother Theresa was going to hell because she didn’t believe the “right” Christianity.  I read a true story of a girl who died of a disease at 8 years old and it had her real picture on the cover. In the book it was obvious her family didn’t believe the “right” Christianity. I used to look at her picture and think how sad it was that she was burning in hell that very moment. You can see how this messes with your mind as a child and how difficult it is to untangle even after you’ve gotten out. It’s a big mind game based on fear. But yes, the way I was always taught was salvation by a specific faith, once you were saving you could never lose it, but you wanted to keep doing good after that point of salvation because you supppsedly loved god so much and didn’t want to disappoint him.  I never achieved the love for god, I just lived in fear and dread of him because he was going to send me to hell for doubting. 

[livinginthelight]

Sometimes these threads make me so sad. Hearing the horrible, soul-killing things that are taught, when faith can be such a positive and comforting and inspiring force in people's lives, including my own. I just wish I could go back in time and protect some of you from those toxic environments.

[ALM7]

7 hours ago, Travelfan said:

Just being a decent person actually had nothing to do with Hevean or hell when I was growing up, the entire focus was on what you believed. It really screwed with my mind and had me convinced I was going to burn forever after I died for over 30 years until I broke free.

[snipped]

@Travelfan, I'm so sorry what you endured, I can't imagine living in fear for so long. I know it took great strength and courage to break free.  You are indeed a survivor.

[Jinder Roles]

I used to have a paralyzing fear of hell growing up. Truthfully, heaven sounded boring but was obviously a better choice than eternal torture. All of the teachings about not trusting your flesh and how horrible and weak a person you are really fucked me up. I'm predisposed to anxiety and have ADHD, but hearing those teachings as a child activated my anxiety issues. 

Not much is said about heaven in the Bible. It's funny that the biggest goal for Christians is largely a mystery. The thing we were taught was important about heaven is that there was no pain and we'd spend eternity praising God (sounds boring). 

@Travelfan is right and I relate to their experience. According to Western Christianity, nobody can be a "good" person because we're inherently evil and will sin. The only person that is good is Jesus because he is perfect. Our lack of perfection is apparently such an egregious offense to God that we should be cast into hell (really not a great thing for an anxious perfectionist to internalize). This is where Ray Comfort gets his annoying "are you a good person" schtick from. 

@SorenaJ It's not about age. You get baptized when you decide to accept Jesus and want to make a public declaration about it. Baptism isn't necessary for salvation but highly encouraged and necessary for church membership in a lot of churches. Think of it as the equivalent of Catholic confirmation. 

 

[EmCatlyn]

On 7/16/2021 at 2:01 PM, Alisamer said:

I

I think some people would consider me not actually Christian because I tend to think if God has three aspects then he could have more than three, and probably a bunch of different names, too - and God as a higher power who takes whatever name or form works for each person in each culture makes much more sense to me than a God who created everyone and considers everyone his children, but then only let certain groups know about him and sends every one of his children in groups who haven't heard of him yet to hell. I think God uses different names in different cultures, and cares more about what kind of person you are than what name you call him. 

Thanks for coming to my rambling TED talk that is only vaguely on topic!

During my Unitarian Universalist days, I ran into the (supposedly) Hindu saying, “The Lord is one, but he is known by a thousand names.”  I kind of look at it like that still, though I am back in the Trinitarian fold.

It seems to me that God is too difficult for human beings to understand, so God manifests differently to different people at different times according to what people can understand.  For me, the experience of approaching God that made sense was informed by the Roman Catholic ritual of my childhood. I found a home in the Episcopal church because Episcopalians embrace the ritual and yet allow more flexible thought. 

The most important Christian teaching (as I understand Christianity) is that we should love others.  I don’t pretend to be very good at this — loving people can be very hard, especially when they do unlovable things.  But I believe that “compassion” is the next best thing to love.  I can have compassion even toward people I might hate.  I can try to understand and to see the other side and not “demonize” even when I feel nothing but disgust and anger.

It is the absence of compassion (which is not the same as pity) and real (not performative) humility that I find most difficult to reconcile with fundy claims of Christian virtue.  People like the Duggars embrace a shallow, legalistic God whom they largely reinvent to support their own biases.  IMO, their God is a very narrow and largely in-Christian deity.  But I try to be compassionate.  Most of them sincerely believe.

 

[Alisamer]

On 7/17/2021 at 1:50 AM, SorenaJ said:

Do any Baptist fundies do believers baptism as adult? 
 

Why don’t they all? 

Yeah I grew up baptist (fundie lite, and now much more liberal) but all the Baptist churches I've been in believe in adult baptism. You get baptised when you get saved, whether that's age 7 or age 97. You can also get baptised when switching denominations, I think - in my fundie lite church I remember an elderly lady who had married an elderly man in the congregation (both widowed, I think) and she had been Lutheran her whole life. She got Baptised into the church when she chose to join our church with her husband. I don't remember it being presented as "finally this lady is REALLY saved!" but more as her choosing to be baptised by immersion to symbolize her becoming a member of the Baptist church. I don't think anyone thought people who were in a different denomination of protestant and got "sprinkled" instead of "dunked" were going to hell, or at least I didn't get that impression. I was a kid, though, so it could have sailed over my head. 

On 7/17/2021 at 6:47 AM, SorenaJ said:

I just thought, for the Duggars, they would make it into a big celebration, like they do with their graduation, like invite people over, and have a party. I think that's how it is done a lot with infant baptisms, it's a big celebration. Same for confirmation, in the Church of Denmark. 

I think it varies a lot, for Baptists. I don't remember anything special when I got Baptised, except maybe my grandparents attended that Sunday morning... they went to different Baptist churches. We might have all had lunch together as a family, maybe. 

We did baptisms once a quarter or so - there'd be the baptisms and everyone would take communion together with the new members of the church. It was kind of a special celebratory Sunday, but not a huge deal. We definitely didn't get a party or anything. I don't even remember when my sisters got baptised at all, so it couldn't have been played up like a huge thing.

At my current church when you get baptised you get a glass communion cup instead of the little plastic ones, and you get to keep that and some other small gift, not sure if it's a bible, or certificate, or something. At the church I grew up in you got dunked and then got grape juice and a bit of cracker. 

On 7/17/2021 at 10:10 AM, church_of_dog said:

But what if once you're in heaven, you're on god's clock -- didn't we hear during the creation story* that a million years equals one second?

* or was it merely from a comedy routine:

  Hide contents

A man was praying to God. He said, "God!?" God responded, "Yes?" And the guy said, "Can I ask a question?" "Go right ahead," God said. "God, what is a million years to you?" God said, "A million years to me is only a second." "Hmmm," the man wondered. Then he asked, "God, what is a million dollars worth to you?" God said, "A million dollars to me is as a penny." So the man said, "God, can I have a penny?" And God cheerfully said, "Sure! Just a second."

 

I remember that comedy routine and it has informed my religious understanding better than about any sermon I've ever heard. It's the only way the creation story even begins to make sense, IMO - it's a metaphor for both how creation worked and how infinite God is. It's why I'm always boggled by the young-earth creationists and the anti-evolution people. And the biblical literalists. Jesus told parables, why wouldn't some of the old testament stories be parables, too? God created the earth, sure, I'll buy that. That doesn't have to mean he did it in six literal 24 hour days and that evolution never happened. We know the Earth is older than that, and that evolution happened and is still happening.

What if God's big into science and the Earth is his Petri dish? He set it up and dropped a bit of organic material on there and watched to see what happened.  Makes more sense than taking a rib out of an already formed and living man to make him a companion because he was lonely. That story makes God sound like he didn't plan all that well, doesn't it? "Hey I'm gonna make a guy and put him on this new planet I made... oh, wait. How will the planet get full if it's just one guy? It'll be boring to watch just one dude forever. Hey Adam, lay down, I'm gonna take out one of your ribs."

All this discussion is far more interesting than pedo Josh, while he's waiting for his trial to commence!

[church_of_dog]

@Alisamer I agree!  Along with:

Edited July 19, 2021 by church_of_dog

[Antipatriarch]

Ha! Gary Larson did that gag more than once: