[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 33: Ohhh Honey It Is Already a Disaster.....

[ToriAmos]

I feel the same about educating all those anti-abortionists about the real reasons someone would choose to end their pregnancy in late term. Or choose to not have the child of their rapist/father/uncle/brother at 13 or 14, or ever. The idea that liberals are just tripping around saying 'you know what? I've changed my mind. I don't want this baby now.'

[Cults-r-us]

3 hours ago, Free Jana Duggar said:

Yea I  know.  I'm not really wishing for that, just wondering if even that would shock her into leaving...

 

She doesn't believe he is guilty. So showing her what a guilty person watched won't sway her.

[SPHASH]

5 hours ago, closetcagebaby said:

I get where you’re coming from but advocating for police to force someone to watch child sexual abuse videos is a pretty heinous thing imo. 

Please forgive my ignorance but in a CSA trial are the actual images presented as evidence and does the judge and jury see them.  That would be traumatic.

Edited July 5, 2021 by SPHASH

[Expectopatronus]

@Cults-r-us I know that trashy new sites have said this but has Anna released a statement? I’m not sure I would put much stock in a gossip website quoting “a source close to the family”. I suspect the lawyers have advised the Duggars to keep their traps shut re Josh’s innocence or guilt. 

[baldricks_turnip]

6 hours ago, Free Jana Duggar said:

I've been wondering if there could be anything that might get Anna to leave Josh.  I think she knows what CSA is. She knows it involves inappropriate touching and probably has an idea of various acts it might entail.  However, I believe that's as far as most people choose to go because it's so disturbing.  

I went down the unfortunate rabbit hole and read about that pedophile monster in Australia who abused an 18 month old baby. There was only maybe a 2 sentence description of the video, and it made me sick. I would never have even imagined.

Maybe investigators should sit Anna down and make her watch it for herself. You can't unsee something like that (heck, I can't unsee the words I read that described it).  They need make her watch it and then get in her face and remind her that she has a baby that age and that's what her husband was watching on his computer.

If she wouldn't leave after that, then she needs her kids taken away.

Just my rant for today.    

I would imagine she might go through a process of kind of denial/'trickle-truthing' herself. She will tell herself it's a mistake or outright conspiracy. If she accepts that the material was actually downloaded there at his workplace, she'll believe it was someone else. If she comes to accept it was him because of the log in/password details, she'll choose to believe that he was seeking legal pornography (and maybe this stuff was batched in). If they introduce evidence of search terms or accessing websites that only contain CSAM, she might choose to believe that he was seeking images of older teens (still illegal, but more palatable to those looking to excuse his choices).
If she is forced to face the reality that he downloaded exactly what we all know he downloaded, she'll probably just tell herself it was Satan targeting such a godly, pious man.

[BlondeAgent007]

3 hours ago, Expectopatronus said:

@Cults-r-us I know that trashy new sites have said this but has Anna released a statement? I’m not sure I would put much stock in a gossip website quoting “a source close to the family”. I suspect the lawyers have advised the Duggars to keep their traps shut re Josh’s innocence or guilt. 

I wouldn't put total stock in it.  BUT with 19 kids, plus spouses and grandchildren, the Reber's daughter, close business/church people....  

Big families contain lots of mouths.

[The Mother Dust]

I love this fanfiction drift.  I can't let it go without mentioning my favorite pod-ficcer, quietnight on AO3.  As long as I've been a fan of fanfic, I only discovered pod-fics a few years ago. (Basically audiobooks of fanfic, for those who dont know)  She is my favorite.  Her voice is the best, and she always embellishes her work with perfect sound effects and music, and sometimes bloopers at the end.   She is also selective in the stories she chooses to record....they are all fantastic. She does a good mix of funny, light hearted, and hot. A few angsty ones. Rated G to R.   She is also a great traditional artist and draws alot of "cover-art" for her stories.  

 I would link to her profile here, but not sure if I'm allowed to.  But if you search for her name just as I wrote it above on AO3, you'll find her stuff.  She does mostly MCU fics, however even if thats not your cup of tea, I encourage you to try one of her stories....I tell you, she's that good, I bet you'd enjoy her work even if you're not an MCU fan.  One of my favorite things is to put one of her PG-13 or less stories on in the car when I have to take the occasional long drive, and listen to it just like an audiobook.   She's also really nice too, and engages with her fans.  Ugh....can you tell i'm a fan?  lol. 

[patsymae]

"Not all prisons have the same bans."

 

I taught a writing workshop for women in a county jail. They wouldn't let me give them notebooks--the reason given was that then prisoners would come to the group just to get a notebook (!). I had to hand out individual sheets of paper as they used them. I also had to collect the flexible pens they used after each session. If they wanted a pen they could buy one in the commissary for $2.

[Cults-r-us]

On 6/20/2021 at 9:03 PM, feministxtian said:

how long do you think it'd take for him to get busted downloading CSA again? The odds of learning his lesson seem mighty slim. 

I looked up causes of persons getting hooked on CSA. The cases I read said something like most people see porn and go on. But people who developed problems escalated to viewing edgier and edgier porn, eventually ending at CSA. It said people who want help don't seek it due to stigma.

On 6/30/2021 at 1:07 PM, Coconut Flan said:

I have missed some point with workbooks.  They're allowed to have writing paper.  What makes a workbook worse?  

At church, we have to send ones without spirals in our school supply kits because they use the spirals as weapons or some such.

[Cults-r-us]

On 6/20/2021 at 7:06 PM, Tatar-tot said:

I was thinking of Josh and the Willis father. Both sickos but different behavior.  Both enabled by their wives:  consciously or unconsciously.  What is it with these far right wing religions and attracting and developing these perverts?  I just don’t get it.

Patriarchal culture, which causes inequality and powerlessness for women + educational and identity abuse + isolation = opportunity for sexual abuse. Look at the FLDS.

[patsymae]

On 7/4/2021 at 9:17 PM, SPHASH said:

Please forgive my ignorance but in a CSA trial are the actual images presented as evidence and does the judge and jury see them.  That would be traumatic.

As far as I know, yes. And that would be part of the jury selection process, letting people know they would see things that would be disturbing (to say the least) and do you think you can do that and still be fair.

6 hours ago, Cults-r-us said:

Patriarchal culture, which causes inequality and powerlessness for women + educational and identity abuse + isolation = opportunity for sexual abuse. Look at the FLDS.

Or, and I hate to say this as a cradle Catholic, off-again, on-again, off again with the new statement from the bishops, the right wing of the Catholic Church.

[sixcatatty]

1 hour ago, patsymae said:

As far as I know, yes. And that would be part of the jury selection process, letting people know they would see things that would be disturbing (to say the least) and do you think you can do that and still be fair.

Or, and I hate to say this as a cradle Catholic, off-again, on-again, off again with the new statement from the bishops, the right wing of the Catholic Church.

In the one case, looking at the picturres/films was indeed part of voir dire. At the time, a new case had come down and the judge followed the procedure to a *t*. He, the government and the defense went through all 51 exhibits and he had the government explain why for all of them. He told the government to pare them down, so the next day, the government came in with 25 of 51 exhibits. Then he, the government and the defense went through the pieces of film (I forget how many) and he had the government pare the film down to 2 minutes, 3 seconds and so on for all of the film. He also had therapists around for folks who thought they may need to talk to someone. He included the lawyers in that group.

I had to go over to the appellate clerk's office and examine the 25 pieces.  If I hadn't known what I was looking at, a few would have looked like candid shots a parent would take of a child (my parents took a picture of me in a diaper in a bucket, for example). Some were bad. Some were worse. The films were worst of all. The judge had decided that the jury would not hear the sounds from the film. I wasn't spared that, which I think made things doubly painful. And I'm an adult.

I had my husband come pick me up. When he came in, I just grabbed him and held on for a long time. It was a quiet, thoughtful afternoon in my office. I was quiet when I got home and didn't get much sleep. Unfortunately, there is something called secondary trauma and all criminal defense lawyers deal with it differently. I have a box that crime scene pictures go in, testimony about the things human beings do to other human beings and those pictures go in. I try very hard to keep it there but as with all damage, sometimes it escapes and I spend a sleepless night.

And that's so much less than those poor children.

[EmCatlyn]

On 7/8/2021 at 10:47 AM, patsymae said:

"Not all prisons have the same bans."

 

I taught a writing workshop for women in a county jail. They wouldn't let me give them notebooks--the reason given was that then prisoners would come to the group just to get a notebook (!). I had to hand out individual sheets of paper as they used them. I also had to collect the flexible pens they used after each session. If they wanted a pen they could buy one in the commissary for $2.

Why aren’t prisoners allowed notebooks?  I can understand certain types of notebooks (spiral bound, for example) but there are notebooks with sewn or glued sheets.  

[BlackberryGirl]

They don’t allow note books because we haven’t figured out that INCARCERATION is the punishment. Society wants to just pile on and pile on. You are in prison. You can’t leave...for YEARS, so of course you can’t have a notebook.

[EmCatlyn]

39 minutes ago, BlackberryGirl said:

They don’t allow note books because we haven’t figured out that INCARCERATION is the punishment. Society wants to just pile on and pile on. You are in prison. You can’t leave...for YEARS, so of course you can’t have a notebook.

Sorry to be dense, but if, as you are saying, the point is to punish, why notebooks?  How is it a punishment?

I have never noticed a great fondness or attachment to notebooks in the general (non-prison) population.  Notebooks are associated with school and/or work. Unless you are someone (like me) who likes to write and keep journals and such, not having a notebook should not feel like a huge deprivation.  How is this different behind bars?  

I can see the restriction of reading material as a punishment— but writing materials?  Do prison inmates want notebooks? Why? 

(Genuinely curious here. No snark.)

[Natalie22]

Not OP, but I'm guessing they're saying that society as a whole doesn't realize that restricting someone's movement is enough of a punishment and continues to try and find more and more ways to punish people.  I think if most people in the general public were unable to do anything or set their own schedule, they also would really want a notebook.  People like to draw, journal, write stories, etc.

[Sabine]

3 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Sorry to be dense, but if, as you are saying, the point is to punish, why notebooks?  How is it a punishment?

I have never noticed a great fondness or attachment to notebooks in the general (non-prison) population.  Notebooks are associated with school and/or work. Unless you are someone (like me) who likes to write and keep journals and such, not having a notebook should not feel like a huge deprivation.  How is this different behind bars?  

I can see the restriction of reading material as a punishment— but writing materials?  Do prison inmates want notebooks? Why? 

(Genuinely curious here. No snark.)

because they can. In the same way as they can deny female prisoners access to tampons and other hygiene products. Because they can. 

[EmCatlyn]

6 minutes ago, Sabine said:

because they can. In the same way as they can deny female prisoners access to tampons and other hygiene products. Because they can. 

That’s not the same.  Access to hygiene products should be a right.  I am not sure that having a notebook should be a right, though i don’t know how I (personally) could survive imprisonment if I couldn’t write.   

I get it that you and others are saying that not allowing notebooks is part of some power kick that prison authorities can get into.  And I don’t doubt that is the case.  I am just surprised that anyone would punish the average person by not allowing notebooks.  Is it to limit self-expression?  To reduce the chance that prisoners might keep records?  Is there some justifiable concern, such as fear that notebooks might be used to keep records of illegals transactions?  It puzzles me.

More than 100 years ago, when the author Oscar Wilde (The Importance of Being Ernest, The Picture of Dorian Gray)  was sent to prison for homosexuality (this was in Britain),  he was not allowed to write anything except letters, so one of his great pieces of writing is in the form of a very long letter.  I always assumed the prohibition against writing anything but letters was a petty punishment directed against him (an author) specifically, not that it was a general rule that applied to everyone.  Now I guess I must look up if it really was. ??‍♀️ 

[Natalie22]

The only thing I've heard/seen (from the Netflix show girls incarcerated) is that sometimes they can write notes to each other and pass them to each other which is not allowed.  It could potentially lead to issues, but also that seems a bit extreme to prevent people in prisons from having notebooks.  I think often it is to prevent inmates from not having to pay insane prices for things from the prison store.  You can get a basic notebook for a dollar in the normal world, but they can charge whatever they want inside prison if they prevent people from getting them as gifts or from any programs for inmates.

[Dandruff]

Given the possibility of going to prison, I wonder whether Josh will have the sense to be vaccinated beforehand.

[marmalade]

12 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

Given the possibility of going to prison, I wonder whether Josh will have the sense to be vaccinated beforehand.

Smuggar have sense? ?????

[Sabine]

2 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

That’s not the same.  Access to hygiene products should be a right.  I am not sure that having a notebook should be a right, though i don’t know how I (personally) could survive imprisonment if I couldn’t write.   

I get it that you and others are saying that not allowing notebooks is part of some power kick that prison authorities can get into.  And I don’t doubt that is the case.  I am just surprised that anyone would punish the average person by not allowing notebooks.  Is it to limit self-expression?  To reduce the chance that prisoners might keep records?  Is there some justifiable concern, such as fear that notebooks might be used to keep records of illegals transactions?  It puzzles me.

More than 100 years ago, when the author Oscar Wilde (The Importance of Being Ernest, The Picture of Dorian Gray)  was sent to prison for homosexuality (this was in Britain),  he was not allowed to write anything except letters, so one of his great pieces of writing is in the form of a very long letter.  I always assumed the prohibition against writing anything but letters was a petty punishment directed against him (an author) specifically, not that it was a general rule that applied to everyone.  Now I guess I must look up if it really was. ??‍♀️ 

that is the point, THEY get to decide what are your right and not. Some decide that you don't have a rights to toilet paper or a note book or a tampon. And they do that because they can. 

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Natalie22 said:

The only thing I've heard/seen (from the Netflix show girls incarcerated) is that sometimes they can write notes to each other and pass them to each other which is not allowed.  It could potentially lead to issues, but also that seems a bit extreme to prevent people in prisons from having notebooks.  I think often it is to prevent inmates from not having to pay insane prices for things from the prison store.  You can get a basic notebook for a dollar in the normal world, but they can charge whatever they want inside prison if they prevent people from getting them as gifts or from any programs for inmates.

So you are saying that in some cases notebooks are allowed if they are purchased from the prison store.   Interesting.

Returning to Josh, I am sure that he will not care about not having a notebook.  That would be one of the few advantages of having been brought up only semi-literate. 

[crawfishgirl]

Christianity Today has an article regarding how Josh's charges are impacting the homeschool community.  It's a good read and discusses how they are trying to become more aware of issues and how insulating children doesn't always protect them.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2021/july-web-only/josh-duggar-sexual-abuse-charges-trial-family-homeschool.html

[NancyDrewFan1989]

22 hours ago, crawfishgirl said:

Christianity Today has an article regarding how Josh's charges are impacting the homeschool community.  It's a good read and discusses how they are trying to become more aware of issues and how insulating children doesn't always protect them.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2021/july-web-only/josh-duggar-sexual-abuse-charges-trial-family-homeschool.html

This whole article should be a must read for the homeschooling families following the same beliefs as the Duggars. It explains the fallout of all the excuses the Duggars had for Josh's behavior back when he was a teenager. So many people had defended Josh back in 2015 and praised Anna for sticking by him. Jim Bob and Michelle sent Josh to faith based rehabs where there were no licensed psychologists to help him with these problems. All of this possibly enabled Josh to feel that he was invincible and immune to consequences when he his heinous acts. The only positive thing I hope that comes out the Josh Duggar saga is that more fundie and homeschooling Christian families take more action and notice when an older child abuses one of their younger siblings.