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John and Chelsy 9: Title Update: Baby Madeline Is Here 10 Weeks Early


nelliebelle1197

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13 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Courtney Rogers is the last person I would say is listening to her doctor! She has kids less than 12 months apart!  Chelsy got sh*t for her spacing, but Courtney's is even more ridiculous. It's not like one or two kids are particularly close together, it's all 11 of them!  Not one of them is 18 months apart! We have no idea how the doctor has been suggesting leaving a large gap between kids. It took a dangerous birth with long term health consequences for both mama and baby for her to listen to her doctor.

Looks like you haven’t been following Courtney on instagram. She has said in her stories that they are waiting on having #12 because of what the doctor recommended. This one was her first with a traumatic birth and loss of oxygen. I don’t know what her doctor has told her in the past about having babies close together. But she listened to him this time. 

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14 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Looks like you haven’t been following Courtney on instagram. She has said in her stories that they are waiting on having #12 because of what the doctor recommended. This one was her first with a traumatic birth and loss of oxygen. I don’t know what her doctor has told her in the past about having babies close together. But she listened to him this time. 

I don't need to follow on Instagram lately! She has 11 kids most of whom are less than 18 months apart! YOU blamed Madeline's prematurity on Chelsy's spacing, but you excuse Courtney's spacing of the previous 11 children. It's pure luck or the grace of God that nothing went wrong for Courtney before she had the 11th child.  It's not fair or kind to only blame people when things go wrong. 

For people who don't know Courtney has 11 children.  The first two kids are 16 months apart, the third is 14 months younger than the fourth, the fourth is 10 months younger than the third, the fifth one is 15 months younger than the fourth, the twins (6 and 7) are 11 months younger than the 5th, the 8th is 20 months younger than the twins, the 9th is 13 months younger than 8th, the 10th is just shy of  year younger than the 9th, and the 11th is 17 months younger than the 10th. She had a difficult birth with number 11, but sure now she's listening to doctors. 

Editing to add my source fundie wiki; here's the link for Courtney.

Edited by Bluebirdbluebell
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On 7/11/2021 at 9:06 AM, fundiefan said:

Expenses Not Shared—Procedures directly related to the termination of a living, unborn child and/or removal of the living, unborn child from the mother due to an ectopic pregnancy are not shared (e.g. methotrexate, salpingectomy, salpingostomy), unless the removal of the child from its ectopic location was for the primary purpose of saving the life of the child or improving the health of the child.

Has that ever even been done?

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Just now, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I don't need to follow on Instagram lately! She has 11 kids most of whom are less than 18 months apart! YOU blamed Madeline's prematurity on Chelsy's spacing, but you excuse Courtney's spacing of the previous 11 children. It's pure luck or the grace of God that nothing went wrong for Courtney before she had the 11th child.  It's not fair or kind to only blame people when things go wrong. 

For people who don't know Courtney has 11 children.  The first two kids are 16 months apart, the third is 14 months younger than the fourth, the fourth is 10 months younger than the third, the fifth one is 15 months younger than the fourth, the twins (6 and 7) are 11 months younger than the 5th, the 8th is 20 months younger than the twins, the 9th is 13 months younger than 8th, the 10th is just shy of  year younger than the 9th, and the 11th is 17 months younger than the 10th. She had a difficult birth with number 11, but sure now she's listening to doctors. 

Oh lord get off your high horse. I said she listened to her doctor this time and I’m glad she did. That doesn’t mean I completely absolve her for past decisions. Quit putting words in my mouth. 

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1 minute ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I don't need to follow on Instagram lately! She has 11 kids most of whom are less than 18 months apart! YOU blamed Madeline's prematurity on Chelsy's spacing, but you excuse Courtney's spacing of the previous 11 children. It's pure luck or the grace of God that nothing went wrong for Courtney before she had the 11th child.  It's not fair or kind to only blame people when things go wrong. 

For people who don't know Courtney has 11 children.  The first two kids are 16 months apart, the third is 14 months younger than the fourth, the fourth is 10 months younger than the third, the fifth one is 15 months younger than the fourth, the twins (6 and 7) are 11 months younger than the 5th, the 8th is 20 months younger than the twins, the 9th is 13 months younger than 8th, the 10th is just shy of  year younger than the 9th, and the 11th is 17 months younger than the 10th. She had a difficult birth with number 11, but sure now she's listening to doctors. 

Quoting myself to point out, that Chelsy had her first two 17 months apart and her third was due 15 months later. 

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1 minute ago, Black Aliss said:

Has that ever even been done?

No. It’s a myth propagated in some “pro-life” circles.

If an ectopic fetus could be moved to the uterus and survive, doctors would be doing these procedures by the thousands, if not the millions. Do these idiots not realize the heartbreak of finding out that a much-wanted pregnancy is ectopic and cannot continue without killing both mother and fetus? Tubal pregnancies destroyed both of a friend’s Fallopian tubes; IVF didn’t work. (Fortunately, she was able to adopt a child.)

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23 minutes ago, Hane said:

No. It’s a myth propagated in some “pro-life” circles.

If an ectopic fetus could be moved to the uterus and survive, doctors would be doing these procedures by the thousands, if not the millions. Do these idiots not realize the heartbreak of finding out that a much-wanted pregnancy is ectopic and cannot continue without killing both mother and fetus? Tubal pregnancies destroyed both of a friend’s Fallopian tubes; IVF didn’t work. (Fortunately, she was able to adopt a child.)

I swear I read a pro-life story from a woman claiming she had an ectopic pregnancy that turned into a healthy baby. 

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40 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I swear I read a pro-life story from a woman claiming she had an ectopic pregnancy that turned into a healthy baby. 

It can happen. But not because a doctor did anything to move the developing gestational sac/embryo. That can’t happen. We have no possible way to keep an extremely extremely tiny developing human alive without the placenta working the way it’s supposed to. It stops working immediately when it’s not attached anymore even if fetus is full term.

Ectopic pregnancies (pregnancies where implantation occurs outside the uterus) are statistically uncommon, and of those 95% implant in a Fallopian tube. Most of the rest don’t make it past the ovary. A very, very small percentage implant in the abdomen, on the fundus of the uterus or another abdominal organ such as the bowel. Even these pregnancies almost never make it very far (causing a needed surgery when there is no way for a non viable fetus to exit the body on it’s own), though they can make it longer than a Fallopian tube that isn’t made to stretch. If it is detected the recommendation is surgery to remove the pregnancy from wherever it is because the risks are so high for Mom, and the chances so low for the fetus.

I fully believe you’ve seen a pro lifer claim this happened to them. Whether or not it actually happened and if so under what circumstances I am not sure, as it’s a story that fits the prolife agenda really well.

As someone who almost didn’t exist when my Mom nearly died (years before I was born) from a (Fallopian tube) ectopic that ruptured, who then went on to have one herself (got surgery thankfully before mine ruptured) this is a thing I’ve read and thought about a lot. I agree with @Hane who said that if surgery to move the pregnancy to the uterus was possible it would be amazing for so many people who have to make heartbreaking decisions about wanted pregnancies that just don’t go where they need to. 

Edited by JustEnough
edited to add a words for clarity and then a poster tag for credit, I swear I’m done now
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1 hour ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I don't need to follow on Instagram lately! She has 11 kids most of whom are less than 18 months apart! YOU blamed Madeline's prematurity on Chelsy's spacing, but you excuse Courtney's spacing of the previous 11 children. It's pure luck or the grace of God that nothing went wrong for Courtney before she had the 11th child.  It's not fair or kind to only blame people when things go wrong. 

For people who don't know Courtney has 11 children.  The first two kids are 16 months apart, the third is 14 months younger than the fourth, the fourth is 10 months younger than the third, the fifth one is 15 months younger than the fourth, the twins (6 and 7) are 11 months younger than the 5th, the 8th is 20 months younger than the twins, the 9th is 13 months younger than 8th, the 10th is just shy of  year younger than the 9th, and the 11th is 17 months younger than the 10th. She had a difficult birth with number 11, but sure now she's listening to doctors. 

Editing to add my source fundie wiki; here's the link for Courtney.

Fundie wiki is not really a great source, FYI. We tend to rely on the FJ list takers like @anjulibaiand @Bethella.

Anyway, just chill! Jerm has an opinion and your POV is different. No harm either way. 

Edited by nelliebelle1197
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I remember watching a documentary about a woman who had triplets, one of whom grew outside the womb. 
Melanie had early babies, but none as early as little Madeline Sue. Abigail was 34 weeks, for reference. 

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11 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

CF, we got SSI! The social worker arranged it all for us!

There is a way to do that.  Having worked there, I'm not allowed to explain to people how to do it.  

Basically there are ways to game the SSI system.  Many of them require an attorney to establish while some are known to social workers and others.  One friend of mine found a particularly talented attorney who got SSI benefits for her daughter for all 18 years from birth to adulthood even though they both worked excellent jobs and had plenty of assets.  To their credit, they saved the money for her.  Again finding a way to game the system.  What's truly sad to me is that people with the means to hire such an attorney are usually the very people who don't really need the money while the people the system was intended to help don't get much or anything.  

Edited by Coconut Flan
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23 hours ago, mango_fandango said:

Could Michelle have had more than two miscarriages and just not mentioned them? 

And I actually almost forgot that Chelsy was pregnant. Madeline Sue is a nice name. I hope everything goes well for her. 

Good question, the Duggars have been pretty transparent about Michelle's pregnancies and there were a few that were very close. But, when you look at the children, with the exception of Josie and Jordyn and the two sets of twins (duh), they are spaced out either fifteen or sixteen months apart. Michelle did mention she had to have C-sections and hospital births upon the advice of her doctors. So far we know that she had two miscarriages. It's possible she had more, but I kind of doubt it. It would've come out at some point during the show. 

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So, Chelsy has been on my mind and I can't help but wonder if she was trying to "beat her brothers" getting to baby #3 before them. The only reason I wonder this that if you look at the spacing between her brother's children they over two years for Carson and Josh and a year and nine months for Mitchell. Chelsy now has three children born in each year since she got married. eI just really hope that if that if Chelsy felt she was in some messed up competition that she doesn't rush the fourth child. If she keeps rushing to have children like this, then she is putting herself at risk for her and the baby's health. I just hope she realizes that it's not a competition and not worth it to rush into getting pregnant again after this. Knowing Chelsy she is already planning on getting pregnant sometime next year or late this year. I just hope they listen to doctors and John helps Chelsy realize that it's not worth it to rush for baby #4 so soon after this. 

Edited by NancyDrewFan1989
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3 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Fundie wiki is not really a great source, FYI. We tend to rely on the FJ list takers like @anjulibaiand @Bethella.

Just for reference- The age gaps mentioned in the original post match what I have. 

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1 hour ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

So, Chelsy has been on my mind and I can't help but wonder if she was trying to "beat her brothers" getting to baby #3 before them. The only reason I wonder this that if you look at the spacing between her brother's children they over two years for Carson and Josh and a year and nine months for Mitchell. Chelsy now has three children born in each year since she got married. eI just really hope that if that if Chelsy felt she was in some messed up competition that she doesn't rush the fourth child. If she keeps rushing to have children like this, then she is putting herself at risk for her and the baby's health. I just hope she realizes that it's not a competition and not worth it to rush into getting pregnant again after this. Knowing Chelsy she is already planning on getting pregnant sometime next year or late this year. I just hope they listen to doctors and John helps Chelsy realize that it's not worth it to rush for baby #4 so soon after this. 

I don't know how Chelsy feels with regards to her brothers, but I remember when she first was married believing that she thought she was late to get married. Just an overall feeling I had from her posts about her courtship and marriage early on.  If she really thought that, maybe she also thought she had to make up for lost time which breaks my heart, as she was married at a very normal age. 

On the other hand, I think she is very much a believer in all things fundie, with the only exception being her jeans.  So she might just believe in trying to get pregnant as soon as possible, and her producing breastmilk doesn't delay her cycle. 

I don't think Madeline will be the last (btw, I do love the name!), but it could prevent her from homebirths in the future, which I know Chelsy greatly preferred.  My sister couldn't get a licensed midwife after her premie and a previous emergency c-section, because the midwifes' insurance wouldn't cover assisting in her birth, under a kind of "2 strikes" system. 

It's weird, Chelsy has always reminded me of a prettier version of my sister, and their births have followed the exact same pattern so far (though my sister did have a miscarriage between #1 and #2, so her kids are spaced out more than Chelsy's)

 

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3 hours ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

So, Chelsy has been on my mind and I can't help but wonder if she was trying to "beat her brothers" getting to baby #3 before them. The only reason I wonder this that if you look at the spacing between her brother's children they over two years for Carson and Josh and a year and nine months for Mitchell. Chelsy now has three children born in each year since she got married. eI just really hope that if that if Chelsy felt she was in some messed up competition that she doesn't rush the fourth child. If she keeps rushing to have children like this, then she is putting herself at risk for her and the baby's health. I just hope she realizes that it's not a competition and not worth it to rush into getting pregnant again after this. Knowing Chelsy she is already planning on getting pregnant sometime next year or late this year. I just hope they listen to doctors and John helps Chelsy realize that it's not worth it to rush for baby #4 so soon after this. 

I doubt she is doing it to win a contest. She wrote in her blog that she wants a big family and to raise them using her mom as an example. I think her mom had the first 6 in 6 years(?) and Chelsy admired how easy it was for her. Well I bet it wasn't easy and trainings were harsh (Bontragers think 2 years old must behave as adults!!!), but she made it look as a dream come true. Chelsy and John are a healthy fertile couple and, if they don't start using BC, they will easily have a lot more kids. I don't think that other Bons having more or less children has any impact in Chelsy's decision. Probably, not even Madeline's premature birth will make Chelsy decide to have a little family. People say she's "modern" because her jeans, but she's hardcore fundie IMO.

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8 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

There is a way to do that.  Having worked there, I'm not allowed to explain to people how to do it.  

Basically there are ways to game the SSI system.  Many of them require an attorney to establish while some are known to social workers and others.  One friend of mine found a particularly talented attorney who got SSI benefits for her daughter for all 18 years from birth to adulthood even though they both worked excellent jobs and had plenty of assets.  To their credit, they saved the money for her.  Again finding a way to game the system.  What's truly sad to me is that people with the means to hire such an attorney are usually the very people who don't really need the money while the people the system was intended to help don't get much or anything.  

It is not gaming the system for extremely premature babies. It is in the code. I pulled the statute before we applied and SS issues guidance on it. It is a specific program- it is in the statute right here. The social worker at our hospital submitted a verification of her weight with the application. It sort of feels like you are saying we did something we should not have! Due to the nature of my job I was particularly concerned about doing something wrong, which is why I pulled the statute before we did it. The SSI for kids like her was $50 or $60 a month and was basically meant to allow us to qualify for Medicaid. She was automatically eligible for a year and stayed so until she was released from her main specialists at around 18 months. We actually turned down recertification at that point because we did not want to take resources we did not need. The SS caseworker encouraged us to stay on but we did not feel it was right since she was thriving and only had hearing aids at that point.

9 hours ago, mango_fandango said:

I remember watching a documentary about a woman who had triplets, one of whom grew outside the womb. 
Melanie had early babies, but none as early as little Madeline Sue. Abigail was 34 weeks, for reference. 

Melanie had Susannah who was much earlier and died.

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Re: ectopics-- It would be really great if it was possible to just pick up and move the fertilized egg to the right spot. But it's not and letting it continue easily becomes life-threatening. While Scamaritan doesn't care about the mother's life all that much, maybe they should care that it also threatens future fertility.

It's very very very highly unlikely that a pregnancy that implants outside the uterus will result in a healthy live baby and healthy live parent. That being said, I recently saw this one in a billion zillion that worked out successfully. But there's a reason there's a documentary on it-- it's incredibly super rare and far more likely to end up in tragedy.

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I was reading comments on the Maxwell blog and Teri said the baby had to be intubated on Sunday, the 11th & John & Chelsy can't hold her until it's out. I hope it is out by now, for baby's sake and John & Chelsy. I just cannot imagine not being able to hold your baby. 

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16 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I doubt she is doing it to win a contest. She wrote in her blog that she wants a big family and to raise them using her mom as an example. I think her mom had the first 6 in 6 years(?) and Chelsy admired how easy it was for her. Well I bet it wasn't easy and trainings were harsh (Bontragers think 2 years old must behave as adults!!!), but she made it look as a dream come true. Chelsy and John are a healthy fertile couple and, if they don't start using BC, they will easily have a lot more kids. I don't think that other Bons having more or less children has any impact in Chelsy's decision. Probably, not even Madeline's premature birth will make Chelsy decide to have a little family. People say she's "modern" because her jeans, but she's hardcore fundie IMO.

True, I just wondered because her brothers are younger than her and married before her. The three of them have spaced out their children farther than Chelsy has. 

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On 7/12/2021 at 1:17 AM, Foudeb said:

One pregnancy in four ends in miscarriage. Nature is the greatest abotionist of us all. I can guarantee *a lot* of people around you have had a miscarriage, some more than one. There is a big taboo around talking about it, so you won't know

I have to ask where it's taboo to talk about a miscarriage.  It certainly isn't where I live.  

13 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

qualify for Medicaid.

It is to qualify for Medicaid.  It used to be about $25 a month.  Not claiming you were gaming the system, but people do exploit loopholes as the other person I described.  The more I thought about her case, there may have been some deception going on.  

Edited by Coconut Flan
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9 hours ago, fundiefan said:

I was reading comments on the Maxwell blog and Teri said the baby had to be intubated on Sunday, the 11th & John & Chelsy can't hold her until it's out. I hope it is out by now, for baby's sake and John & Chelsy. I just cannot imagine not being able to hold your baby. 

I can.  I wasn't even allowed to touch Katherine for the first weeks as she was on minimal stimulation for the first week.  It was found to decrease the incidence and severity of brain bleeds.  Katherine did have a brain bleed, but it was Grade 1, the least severe.  We weren't able to hold her till she was six weeks old and then not on a regular basis till around 10 weeks.  Katherine weaned off the ventilator at 3 months, was on CPAP for a week or so and needed to be stable and feeding well before she could come home which she did one day before her four month birthday.

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Is the advice really to wait 18 months until trying to conceive, or yes it that children should be no born at least 18 months apart?

I am asking because the former would result in a minimum (!) spacing of 2 years 4 months (and only IF a couple conceives in the very first cycle of trying), so if most people complied with that advice, ~3 years would be the expected “usual minimum”. But at least where I live it’s very common (and considered normal/healthy) to have kids 2 years apart.

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5 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

have to ask where it's taboo to talk about a miscarriage.  It certainly isn't where I live.

When it is said 1 in 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage, it important to note that many of those are chemical pregnacies and the miscarriage happens at the very beginning of the pregnancy (4 or 5 weeks). It's not uncommon for a woman to think she has a late period and not count it as a miscarriage. So it is not that women hide their miscarriages, but in some cases they don't even know it happened. Others just don't consider chemical pregnancies as a miscarriage because there wasn't a previous embryo implantation (not saying it is right or wrong, just sharing what I hear around me). 

It's not a taboo where I live, but broadly speaking it's a sad experience and that's why people is a bit private about it. I think it was a taboo in the past, though. But in fundieland it is not a taboo, they all are very open about it and the rainbow babies are highly celebrated. I suppose they are open about miscarriage because it is a pregnancy after all and in fertility cults it is all what matters. Anyway, it is good fundie women are not critizised because they miscarry, which wouldn't be a susprise in such a patriarchal society.

Edited by Melissa1977
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