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[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 31: Charged on 2 LaCounts


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Jackie3
4 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

He did brain scans on more than just prison population, he also did most of his family and others without criminal behavior.

That may be. But it's more than predisposition or you wouldn't have such high ACE scores in the prison population.

I don't think science has come so far along that you can do a brain scan and "find" antisocial behavior anyway.

1 hour ago, DalmatianCat said:

Obviously, no one really knows, but I don’t think life for the married Duggars or teen boys will change all that much because I don’t believe JB is really cutting monthly checks to everyone. I think he takes most of the money from the show and re-invests it in a variety of different businesses, but I don’t think he gives a monthly paycheck to any child who is not actively working for one of his companies as opposed to a company they started on their own (there may be a lot of gray area here). I do think he expects them to get out on their own and make their own money. I think he gives them a little help starting out with housing...they can either choose a property owned by the family or a modest housing allowance and maybe a little seed money to start a business, but in general, I don’t think he’s funding most of kids. I think a lot of the kids choose similar businesses (selling cars, towing, real estate, etc.) but I think most of those are owned by individual kids and they keep that money.

My main reason for thinking this is:

1) Abbie made the comment that after getting married it was weird not getting a regular paycheck because that was how things worked in her family...you worked a job and got a paycheck. She and John David said something to the affect of waiting on investments and sometimes you had to wait for money to come in and that was new to her and made her nervous sometimes. Definitely didn’t sound like they were getting a monthly check from dad (and I don’t think Abbie was lying...it seemed like a genuine comment and something that did still worry her occasionally).

2) None of the Duggar kids seem to be living a luxurious lifestyle outside of (possibly) Jinger and Jeremy. Unlike the Sister Wives they’re not driving Lexus’ or BMW’s. Unlike the Bates girls they’re not regularly going to the salon and getting their nails done or buying lots of new clothes for themselves and their kids. Jessa has a couple Old Navy dresses she wears a lot, Jill seems to get clothes from Amy in exchange for advertising, Joy likes t-shirts and denim skirts, and they all seem to like that big consignment sale where they get tons of used clothes and toys for their kids. They also don’t seem to go on “big” vacations like Disneyworld (Josie was just there) or Sandals (Carlin and Evan). Outside of their honeymoons, most of their trips after getting married seem to be the beach (Jessa and Ben/Joe and Kendra), camping (Joy and Austin) or to visit family/friends. I think they did go skiing a few years ago for the show.

If anyone’s lifestyle would take a hit, I think it would be JB and Michelle’s, but not the kids who are out on their own. 

I like this comment. It's very honest, intelligent and intuitive. 

I do think that JB pays the boys who work at his businesses. For example, if Josiah and Jedediah renovate one of his properties, he pays them.  He might also "give" a property to a son to flip, and then the son has to renovate it and pay him back when it sells. He might have a car lot that needs someone to run it, and he'll pay a son to sit there all day and sell cars.

That's what I meant about a paycheck. I didn't mean that each kid gets a monthly "I'm a Duggar" stipend. I mean that many of the boys work for JB and get money in return for that work. The one exception might be John David, who seems to have gone out on his own. The rest of the neglected, uneducated boys probably don't work at Target or at a Jiffy Lube. I think JB gives them work from his empire of cheap buildings and car lots.

I think that these businesses will take a hit because the Duggar name is associated with a pedophile, which means fewer jobs for the remaining sons, and therefore less money each month. They may start to fight over the remaining work ("I should get to renovate that building because my wife is pregnant again."--that kind of thing)

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Really? I just spent 2 hours listening to the podcast. He and his wife came across as sincere, thoughtful, and very introspective about their life growing up in fundie families. Only about 30 minutes

A tweet I saw posted on FB that I feel is relevant to fundie thinking 

I know we’ve kind of gotten away from the discussion about Catholicism and its traditions and rituals, but I was still too torn up to discuss this in the last thread, so I will put this out here now.

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HerNameIsBuffy
7 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

That may be. But it's more than predisposition or you wouldn't have such high ACE scores in the prison population.

I don't think science has come so far along that you can do a brain scan and "find" antisocial behavior anyway.

No one was proposing that.  I just find the study between nature and nurture to be interesting, as well as important for science to keep researching.  

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Tatar-tot
2 hours ago, allyisyourpally5 said:

A redemption approach is possible but I just think in general the public reaction to a pedophile and CSA crimes is always considerably higher and I don’t think there’s coming back from this.

I think Josh has totally screwed up life for himself, his kids (now forever known for what their dad has done) and Anna (especially if she stands by him). I think JB and Michelle are done too. They won’t be happy and I’m sure they’ll try hard. I’m sure they won’t be 100 % done in their own circle within IBLP but I doubt they will be held up as the golden shining example anymore. 
The remaining Duggar’s - the last few, so Jackson and under, I believe may have an easier wrath just due to their age, If the income disappears I’m sure all will be married off as they turn 18.Is Josie 12? 6 more years of having to feed and provide. I do think this may make people less attracted to “be a Duggar” though and after what Jeremy said about that 50 page questionnaire - “fill in this questionnaire and I will decide if you are godly enough to join are family where we believe and ignore the fact that incest is common and have a pedophile son who we defend and love but don’t do the same for a daughter who we disagreed on some stuff with”. 
I take it back. Most of the Duggar’s are screwed.

 

I think JB has a TON of money stashed away.  I am not worried in the least about him financially.  He is debt free - which he brags about from tine to time.  Is sitting on 20 acres that could be subdivided.   He also own a number of rental properties that generate rental revenue. JB is also across the street from the dump.  I could see Waste Management wanting the property at some point.  He probably has money buried in the bank.  Don’t worry about the Duggar clan finances:  They are multimillionaires and will be just fine!!!

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SassyPants
13 minutes ago, Tatar-tot said:

I think JB has a TON of money stashed away.  I am not worried in the least about him financially.  He is debt free - which he brags about from tine to time.  Is sitting on 20 acres that could be subdivided.   He also own a number of rental properties that generate rental revenue. JB is also across the street from the dump.  I could see Waste Management wanting the property at some point.  He probably has money buried in the bank.  Don’t worry about the Duggar clan finances:  They are multimillionaires and will be just fine!!!

The thing is, the Duggars have been shown to be very lazy and rather unmotivated, last minute in their efforts. JB has been shown to sit on vacant property with the intention of either renting or selling, but not getting around to doing either for years! Remember when Anna and J left for DC and their previous home went into such disrepair that JB had to have it treated for serious mold? Real estate is only an asset if it’s making you money.

And why aren’t the adults who are working the show getting a pay check? 
 

Any adult  here work a job where their parents get the paycheck? 

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Bastet

From what I read about the origins of psychopathy, it is thought now that those cases that are caused by environment are treatable through intensive therapy. Those that are genetic are only somewhat treatable through cognitive therapy that helps the psychopath see how obeying the law and treating people well redound to their benefit. 
  The guy who studied this and found he had the signature brain scan said he was not affected because he had had an idyllic childhood; however, his kids disagreed, said he was a real shit, and gave multiple examples. 

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Phyllis_Stein

Per WOACB, both Apple TV and Amazon removed 19 KAC from their sites. 

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WiseGirl
1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

The thing is, the Duggars have been shown to be very lazy and rather unmotivated, last minute in their efforts

But is that reality or what the show packaged? Fundie finances are one of the biggest mysteries to me and I would love to learn the secret of traveling everywhere with no job (looking at you Lawson Bates).

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Candycane36
Posted (edited)

Jessa, Jinger, Jana, and Jill were the stars of 19 kids and counting. Everyone watched that show because of them. Michelle, JimBob, Josh and Anna and the other kids only played minor roles. This show was very popular back in the days of days before vlogging, and at its height was as popular as Kate plus 8. That show made millions, Jimbob got paid Millions, and those girls worked for free as young teenagers. There was no college fund, or trust fund for them. So, where did the money go?  This is an Unpopular oppuon, but I believe the real person who runs the shots and wears the pants is Michelle , not JimBob.  I also think Jimbob and Michelle have alot of money stacked away, and thier net worth is much higher than the  estimated 3 to 5 million.  I don't think they will go broke at all,  I think Jimbob is similar to Kris Jenner. He will find away to make money and profit off the scandal.

Edited by Candycane36
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QuiverFullOfCondoms
6 minutes ago, Candycane36 said:

Jessa, Jinger, Jana, and Jill were the stars of 19 kids and counting. Everyone watched that show because of them. Michelle, JimBob, Josh and Anna and the other kids only played minor roles. This show was very popular back in the days of days before vlogging, and at its height was as popular as Kate plus 8. That show made millions, Jimbob got paid Millions, and those girls worked for free as young teenagers. There was no college fund, or trust fund for them. So, where did the money go?  This is an Unpopular oppuon, but I believe the real person who runs the shots and wears the pants is Michelle , not JimBob.  

They also have their fleet of planes that cost money to maintain.

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Candycane36
Posted (edited)

Exactly, Jimbob has a fleet of planes for his personal use, but Jessa who was the main star, lives in a two bedroom home with soon to be four kids,   Jill had to fight for minimum wage , Jana lives at home, and any money Jinger has is probably from Jeremy's soccer career.  Those  girls were expoited, in so many ways, by thier parents, brother and tlc. 

Edited by Candycane36
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OHFL2009
15 minutes ago, Candycane36 said:

Exactly, Jimbob has a fleet of planes for his personal use, but Jessa who was the main star, lives in a two bedroom home with soon to be four kids,   Jill had to fight for minimum wage , Jana lives at home, and any money Jinger has is probably from Jeremy's soccer career.  Those  girls were expoited, in so many ways, by thier parents, brother and tlc. 

Jeremy almost certainly has no money left from his soccer career, and definitely not enough to support their LA lifestyle. His one season in MLS, he made $44,000. And that's living in the NYC metro area, so not low COL. I don't know how much he made in his year in Finland, but he wasn't playing in the top division, so definitely not a "make me rich" amount. I'd guess that $44k is the most he ever made in a season, and as a backup keeper who never saw the field, he didn't have any sort of endorsement deals to bring in extra money. 

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Bluebirdbluebell

Josh was featured quite a bit on 19 K & C. Michelle was the main star until it was clear she wasn't going to have more babies. Michelle isn't running the show. She probably has no clue how the money works.

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feministxtian
23 minutes ago, Candycane36 said:

any money Jinger has is probably from Jeremy's soccer career.

Jeremy really didn't have a soccer "career". He played for a couple of years and wasn't a starter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Vuolo

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Coconut Flan

Discussion of reputation reactions does not belong in regular threads.  It goes in community discussion and such posts will usually be moved there.  Further, questioning someone about their reactions is usually inappropriate.  People are allowed their opinions and to freely express them with the reaction system.  

 

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EmCatlyn
10 hours ago, Bastet said:

I remember jb claiming he discovered that incest among families he knows is common. (This prompted a discussion about how it is more likely in patriarchal families.)  It wouldn’t surprise me that he confided this in josh. JB may now get how damaging this is to his brand. 

Did he say “incest” or did he say something like “inappropriate touching”?

To me, the word “incest” has a different connotation than “inappropriate touching of a vulnerable child by an older sibling or other family member.”

Incest can refer to consensual sexual relationships between people too closely related for legal marriage.    Incest can also refer to situations where one participant does not consent.  The situations are not the same.

Incest usually implies more than just touching.  I would refer to what Josh did as “incestous molestation” unless he actually raped one of his sisters. 

In short, I think we should be more precise in our use of words like “incest” (and “rape”).  But I also wonder what JB actually said.

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CyborgKin
8 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

No one will give Michelle a mother of the year award.

Getting another one from DPiaT wouldn't be amiss though.

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HerNameIsBuffy
Just now, CyborgKin said:

Getting another one from DPiaT wouldn't be amiss though.

I need a high five reaction for that - very nice!

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Snarkasarus Rex
Posted (edited)

I think people are forgetting Boob is either fully supporting or subsidizing the income of a family with damn near 40 people. The car lot is a pretty low margin business and many of the Duggars’ properties are vacant and not generating revenue. And the boys were largely trained using their ‘watch someone do it and then we do it ourselves’ philosophy vs. an apprenticeship or industry-approved training. This isn’t a good set up for long-term capital growth. 
 

While they aren’t broke by any means, the show provided the bulk of their cash flow.  Losing the show will hurt their bottom line significantly...that’s why they’ve gone to such lengths to protect it. 

Edited by Snarkasarus Rex
Can’t spell
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choralcrusader8613
Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Did he say “incest” or did he say something like “inappropriate touching”?

To me, the word “incest” has a different connotation than “inappropriate touching of a vulnerable child by an older sibling or other family member.”

Incest can refer to consensual sexual relationships between people too closely related for legal marriage.    Incest can also refer to situations where one participant does not consent.  The situations are not the same.

Incest usually implies more than just touching.  I would refer to what Josh did as “incestous molestation” unless he actually raped one of his sisters. 

In short, I think we should be more precise in our use of words like “incest” (and “rape”).  But I also wonder what JB actually said.

Do we really need to be that pedantic? It's an internet forum, not a court of law. This kind of parsing seems really unnecessary when the end result is the same: sexually abused children frightened that someone stronger will hurt them.

Edited by choralcrusader8613
typo
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Mrs. Kravitz
9 hours ago, Don'tlikekoolaid said:

The Physiatrist and the Iceman is a fascinating interview with Richard Kuklinski and Dr Dietz. Really explains how nature and nurture can create a broken human.  I’d post a link but y’all know I can’t on this iPhone with my crap connection.  

The interview is three parts but really informative.

I was just thinking of him when someone mentioned antisocial personality disorder. I remember watching one of his interviews in my abnormal psychology class. He was a very interesting case. Up until him, it was assumed that anyone with antisocial personality disorder cared about nothing and no one but themselves. However, in his interviews, the man was calm and collected while talking about his gruesome murders (and, as I recall, seemed like he thought himself very clever in his methods), but he was brought to tears when asked how his wife and kids took the revelation of the murders he committed. He felt terrible about the pain and suffering his crimes (or at least getting caught) had brought to them. Although, I should add, the man was also a pathological liar - he claims to have murdered 100-200 people, but very few of his confessions checked out.

I recall also watching a documentary on Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber) that included an interview with his mother. She said that he had been a very normal, happy baby up until he became ill and was hospitalized for several months in isolation. I want to say he was under a year old. Hospitals being what they were at the time, his parents were not allowed contact with him during his stay, and by the time they were able to bring him home, she at first thought they had given her the wrong baby because his personality was so altered. She blamed that experience on why he turned out the way he did. 

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EmCatlyn
8 minutes ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

Do we really need to be that pedantic? It's an internet forum, not a court of law. This kind of parsing seems really unnecessary when the end result is the same: sexually abused children frightened that someone stronger will hurt them.

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be pedantic.  I was (a) asking what JB had actually said and (b) expressing my personal discomfort with words that may be interpreted in more than one way.

I disagree that “the end result is the same” — not all molestation of children is incestuous, and not everything that can be labeled “incest” is abusive (non-consensual).  For example, some people think an intimate relation between first cousins is incest even if they are roughly the same age, met and fell in love not knowing they were related, etc.  

However, I agree that no matter what we call it, molesting younger children is disgusting and that if the younger children are your close relatives it is especially disgusting.

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HerNameIsBuffy
8 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

For example, some people think an intimate relation between first cousins is incest even if they are roughly the same age, met and fell in love not knowing they were related, etc.  

Are you under the impression anyone in this conversation, or any of the previous threads, was using it in this way?  

Children cannot consent, so there is no consensual contact being discussed here.  You seem like you are parsing words to minimize sexual assault.  

45 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

In short, I think we should be more precise in our use of words like “incest” (and “rape”).

That is not expressing your personal discomfort, that is you stating how you feel we should all refer to this.  You should use the words you think are appropriate, but you don't get to police the language of others.

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Bastet
1 hour ago, EmCatlyn said:

In short, I think we should be more precise in our use of words like “incest” (and “rape”).  But I also wonder what JB actually said.

I don’t remember. This was some years ago. Maybe someone else does. 

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EmCatlyn
Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Are you under the impression anyone in this conversation, or any of the previous threads, was using it in this way?  

Children cannot consent, so there is no consensual contact being discussed here.  You seem like you are parsing words to minimize sexual assault.  

That is not expressing your personal discomfort, that is you stating how you feel we should all refer to this.  You should use the words you think are appropriate, but you don't get to police the language of others.

No.  I am actually concerned that “incest” is not a strong enough word for in-family sexual attacks because “incest” does not automatically connote abuse.

This made me uncomfortable, and I stated my opinion that it would be better to be more precise. Since I am just giving an opinion, it is hardly “policing the language of others.”  I certainly did not try to support my opinion with any claim to authority.  It was just an opinion based on the different ways that I have heard the term “incest” used.  

I am sorry if it seemed I was either minimizing the seriousness of child sexual abuse or trying to dictate to others how to speak of such abuse.  I am just trying to find the best words to communicate difficult things. 

Edited by EmCatlyn
Changed a word for (I hope) greater clarity,
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Cults-r-us

If you want a deal on a car, you want a deal on a car. You don't care if the car lot guy has a perv brother. Maybe it will inspire the Duggars to make better car and other business deals.

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