[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 30: LaCounting On to His Trial Date

[Dollypeeps]

2 minutes ago, closetcagebaby said:

This is extremely unlikely. It’s very very hard to get parental rights removed and even if he was convicted, I don’t think they would be able to do this. 

See in the UK Scotland he’d get supervised visits with a third party so not Anna as they’d deem her unsafe. If she let him back into the home once released if any minor kids still there, they’d do an investigation and either do supervised or remove the kids depending on what way it all went. 

 

[AuntKrazy]

On 5/7/2021 at 3:32 PM, SnarkyLawyer said:

 

Additionally, although I disagree that a federal magistrate doesn't have to safeguard Constitutional rights, a state judge definitely does, and the same considerations I've already stated, would apply. There have to be legal grounds to demand that Anna submits to an evaluation, and assuming she won't follow the law, due to her religious beliefs, gets into a really sketchy area.

 

Oh boy - if I implied that the federal didn't have to safeguard rights, I'm extremely sorry.  That's the last thing I meant and my comment before that was poorly articulated.  

I'm a paralegal with an immigration firm that deals with people post-conviction who are trying to clear up their past records enough to obtain PR, Visas, Work permits, study permits, etc. 

I wish I didn't deal with CSA cases as often as I do.  I'm pretty cynical/jaded about the legal system with regard to offenders; and tend to view the system as in dire need of balance with regard to the protection of victims. I don't know if an automatic appointment of a guardian ad litem when the parent of a minor child is charged with CSA would be considered a viable option for the courts, but I wish it were standard operating procedure.

It may simply be that the area I am willing to sacrifice liberty for safety in is with regard to the protection of children.

 

 

[SassyPants]

To be an expert...

I have always wondered why an adult Josh is able to make untoward decisions ...he clearly has the ability to make those choices, yet he has the inability to use BC or get a vasectomy or file for divorce. Why does he have the ability to make destructive decisions, yet seems stymied when it comes to making more healthy decisions? This guy is all kinds of screwed up.

It would be far healthier for Josh, Anna and their kids if they limited family size or ended their sham of a marriage. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 hours ago, Drala said:

I definitely think some people are born with a predisposition to sociopathic behavior, but there's also little doubt that nurture plays a role.  When I consider JB & M's extreme response to the miscarriage that followed Josh, I can't help but wonder how their unresolved grief might have impacted Josh.  The CSAI he most probably downloaded depicted the sexual torture of a toddler.  That's some really deep-rooted sh*t.

I'm not sure what you're saying, that due to their grief over a miscarriage could have impacted toddler Josh to cause this?

In an ideal world kids would always have happy and emotionally available parents, but from the beginning of time parents have had to deal with very real life problems while raising kids.  it sucks but if that turned kinds into child predators there would be a lot more of them.  I mean it hasn't been that many generations since infant mortality dropped to the point where most people with big families weren't burying at least one and often multiple kids before age 5.  Parents grieve, they get divorced, they are otherwise distracted by their own pain that they can't parent with their A game and kids are generally pretty resilient ... this isn't the expected outcome of that.

IMO If anything affected him it's that he seems to have inherited his parents knack for seeing children as commodities rather than actual people.  Commodities whose value is strictly tied to how well they please the adults.  JB/M didn't see baby after baby as individuals worthy of care, they saw them as numbers to be passed to a buddy once the new kid smell wore off.  But I am not a mental health professional, just some rando on the internet.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy

[SunnySide]

1 hour ago, Hane said:

My message here is LADIES, EARN YOUR OWN MONEY AND KEEP IT SECURED. Failing that, keep an eagle eye on your family finances.

I have seen this advice multiple times from women of various circumstances. It is worth repeating so “the people in the back may hear” as the saying goes. Financial abuse may not be talked about as much as other forms of intimate partner abuse; but it is very real, takes many forms and most of all is just another way to control someone. Just like all types of abuse it can happen to any gender, but my guess is that especially in fundie land it happens to women far more often than men. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

To be an expert...

I have always wondered why an adult Josh is able to make untoward decisions ...he clearly has the ability to make those choices, yet he has the inability to use BC or get a vasectomy or file for divorce. Why does he have the ability to make destructive decisions, yet seems stymied when it comes to making more healthy decisions? This guy is all kinds of screwed up.

It would be far healthier for Josh, Anna and their kids if they limited family size or ended their sham of a marriage. 

Or if he had no kids ever, which would be my preference.

He absolutely can make decisions, as he's shown us, but he makes his own decisions when he thinks he can get away with it.  To choose to limit family size, leave the cult, whatever....even if he wanted to that would result in having to be self-supporting and clearly he won't choose any path that will result in Mommy and Daddy no longer paying his bills.  

And there is no indication he ever wanted to make a healthy decision.  He may well want the fundy public life and have his secret depravity on the side.  He wouldn't be the first or the last person to want to live a double life.  

[SnarkyLawyer]

9 minutes ago, AuntKrazy said:

Oh boy - if I implied that the federal didn't have to safeguard rights, I'm extremely sorry.  That's the last thing I meant and my comment before that was poorly articulated.  

I'm a paralegal with an immigration firm that deals with people post-conviction who are trying to clear up their past records enough to obtain PR, Visas, Work permits, study permits, etc. 

I wish I didn't deal with CSA cases as often as I do.  I'm pretty cynical/jaded about the legal system with regard to offenders; and tend to view the system as in dire need of balance with regard to the protection of victims. I don't know if an automatic appointment of a guardian ad litem when the parent of a minor child is charged with CSA would be considered a viable option for the courts, but I wish it were standard operating procedure.

It may simply be that the area I am willing to sacrifice liberty for safety in is with regard to the protection of children.

 

 

I apologize for the misunderstanding. I wasn't referring to you, when I made my comment. Someone else said it, or at least, that's how I interpreted it.

In my opinion, CSA images should give law enforcement probable cause to interview the perpetrator's children for suspected abuse, especially when the age ranges are the same. If the SO or spouse cooperates, a GAL isn't necessary, but if not, I believe it should be grounds for the court to appoint one. That is only my opinion, and apparently, not what the law states. Images and physical abuse are treated as completely separate issues.

CSA images were just getting started, in the early 90's, in terms of people downloading such images onto personal computers.

[Whipple]

3 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

I suspect that a lot of pressure was put on Josh at that time to become the ideal, Gothard-trained young man and role model, while positive attention was being focused on a seemingly-endless stream of babies.  With each new sibling, Josh would have had more responsibility while also dealing with more noise, strict discipline, and fewer available resources (e.g., "rice three ways").  He was taken out of school.  JB wanted a position in government and was flipping a coin to decide his next move.  Michelle, at some point, couldn't even handle the laundry.  They were all supposed to trust in Jesus.  It can't have been easy.

The situation at the Bates home may have been similar but Zach Bates appears to be OK.  Were the circumstances actually much more challenging at the Duggar home?  Was Josh born predisposed?  Could there have been some other factor we don't know about?

Brilliant posts today about nature-nurture! Sociopathic tendencies are inherited. My sister and I had a similar upbringing--same parents, both were slightly sociopathic but not criminal and we were both neglected. I ended up being dependent in terms of my attachment style, and she went off on her own. She is a true sociopath (maybe even a psychopath) in and out of prison for being a con artist, and  I am an empath who to this day needs reassurance from people if I am not in the proper state of mind.  I think the difference is in our DNA. For some reason I did not inherit the sociopathic tendencies, and with my sister all of it not only lined up, but was amplified. Knowing that these traits are inherited and knowing that we cannot choose our parents, does that mean that we might have a degree of empathy for sociopaths and psychopaths? Maybe to some degree, the answer is yes. At the extreme end, until there is more understanding about treatment and prevention, it is too unsafe for these predators to be outside of society, people like Josh need to be locked up as they are too damaged for redemption to be effective. It's just like Jill says, "all so very sad."

Incidentally, my sister's criminal story is being featured on Entertainment Tonight today--not derailing the thread by giving any more detail so don't ask. Anyway, the fact that my sister's life is blowing up because she decided to go a step too far, does explain my obsession of late with Josh and with the Duggar's and why I am back to posting after years of being sporadic. Back to work.

[Four is Enough]

On 5/9/2021 at 12:29 PM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

This seems to be a fiction being perpetuated here.  @formergothardite stated that even for ILBP and ATI families this has crossed a line where she would get support for leaving.  

That may have been true before, but that is not her cult's stance this time....so if she stays it's in defiance of what they're taught, not because of it.

I felt bad for Anna, thinking she had to stay with Josh, for one reason: In these cults, there may be what is said, but there is definitely what is done... I am certain she's getting pressure all around to stay with Josh and won't consider leaving him because "he was selected for her by God".. I wouldn't put up with that, but I'm not her.

23 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

Not that anyone said it here but I’m horrified at the belief Anna would only do something if hurt his own children. That shows complete inhumanity. The fact that any  child or adult has been raped and  brutalized should be the uncrossable line. It shows just how deep and dangerous their cult is. Separating victims outside their cult as lesser humans 
 

Absolutely agree with this and if my husband was accused, I would probably leave him right away.

22 hours ago, BlackberryGirl said:

but there are things I miss.the rosary, the prayers, my mind still says most of the old Catholic prayers I was raised with. I miss lighting a candle. But go back, nah...too much knowledge...the abuse scandal has forever made the Catholic Church an organization to which I can not belong.

One reason I stay is that the ritual calms me. I, too, kept my children company when they were altar servers, to protect them and the priest. But for me, every priest is not a pedophile. I have no respect or good for someone who covers up these people, but when I go to mass I am still able to separate the word of God from the speaker. The Liturgy of the Word holds me up in a way that just reading it at home does not. so I am a Catholic.... but I worship separately, more in my mind.

20 hours ago, Cam said:

It boggles my mind that the pedophilia epidemic in the Catholic Church has not caused more people to turn away. But as you say, brainwashing runs deep and millions of people, billions even, are conditioned from birth to believe and never question. 

See above. I've questioned plenty. I've also seen that pedophilia is not solely attached to the Catholic church. There are predators in every sect, it seems. This does NOT condone any of it, and makes me sad to think of so many predators in this world. So we protect our children, teach them about consent, and never keep secrets. The message of love that Jesus taught is still there. It has to be separated from the bad messengers.

13 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

Well sure.But that’s easy to be sure of when it’s not your own brother/son/spouse. When it’s your close family, I’m going to bet you’re hoping for ways that it could somehow be a mistake. I sure as hell would. 

That's exactly what happens. And you will say that until it's been proven true.  I would think that JB and M would be there right now. It sure as fuck didn't take me all those years to learn that what my son was accused of was true.. From day one, we looked for the truth. You can deal with the truth. 

[EmCatlyn]

9 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

To be an expert...

I have always wondered why an adult Josh is able to make untoward decisions ...he clearly has the ability to make those choices, yet he has the inability to use BC or get a vasectomy or file for divorce. Why does he have the ability to make destructive decisions, yet seems stymied when it comes to making more healthy decisions? This guy is all kinds of screwed up.

It would be far healthier for Josh, Anna and their kids if they limited family size or ended their sham of a marriage. 

The decisions you identify as “healthy” are not decisions that would be approved of by his community.  He has no reason to see them as good decisions. He probably doesn’t get a vasectomy or divorce Anna because he sees no advantage to it.  Staying married and having lots of kids are things for which he gets approval, even when he is getting stern, grieved, angry or disgusted looks for everything else he does.

I would not be surprised if Josh divorces (or at least leaves Anna and his family) someday.  He just has to get to the point where leaving feels better than staying.

[nokidsmom]

1 hour ago, Hane said:

My message here is LADIES, EARN YOUR OWN MONEY AND KEEP IT SECURED. Failing that, keep an eagle eye on your family finances.

Amen to this.

Even as a kid I decided that it was imperative that I earn(and keep) my own money no matter what.  Because even if one has a responsible, trustworthy spouse, things can still go wrong.   

I remember my mother being a in panic when my father was hospitalized for an extended period of time.   He was the sole provider and she was a SAHM with 3 young kids.   Luckily Dad recovered but I am pretty sure that experience was the impetus for her to go back to school and get a nursing degree.   And her career not only saved my parents' bacon financially when Dad lost his union job, Mom also made enough money that if anything happened with Dad, she could stay in the house, pay bills plus she also had her own retirement money.  She maxed out her retirement contributions from the start. 

 

[feministxtian]

9 minutes ago, Whipple said:

She is a true sociopath (maybe even a psychopath) in and out of prison for being a con artist, and  I am an empath who to this day needs reassurance from people if I am not in the proper state of mind.  I think the difference is in our DNA. For some reason I did not inherit the sociopathic tendencies, and with my sister all of it not only lined up, but was amplified. Knowing that these traits are inherited and knowing that we cannot choose our parents, does that mean that we might have a degree of empathy for sociopaths and psychopaths? Maybe to some degree, the answer is yes. At the extreme end, until there is more understanding about treatment and prevention, it is too unsafe for these predators to be outside of society, people like Josh need to be locked up as they are too damaged for redemption to be effective. It's just like Jill says, "all so very sad."

JB seems to be "off". He seems to get off on controlling his kids, the idiotic competition with his sons, the fixation on his daughters' "purity" (Meech is also fixated on this one). Josh had his parents to himself for a couple of years then the baby floodgates opened, they went all in on the IBLP bullshit, which I think JB saw as a way to be the "big man". Also, pursuing a 16 year old girl (Meech)...I don't know...JB has always seemed to be in dire need of a good shrink too. Knowing what we know about his upbringing, that is, hsi father wasn't good with money, his mother had to "rescue" the family from privation...I think there's a long line of psychological disorders there. It also seems that some of the kids went the other way, Jill recognizing that she's a "people pleaser" and getting secular therapy...I think that might be part of the rift there. Jill recognized the unhealthy patterns, maybe Derdick helped, and is taking steps to try to move beyond that into some sort of "normal". Jinger said she tried to be the "peacemaker". 

Lordy...that family would be a great PhD thesis. 

[Mela99]

I think, if anything, Anna will go to Florida to live with the kids. They will never actually divorce. And in a few years, thanks to the influence of her parents and in-laws, Smug will worm himself back into her graces.

[Eclipse]

it was true but also turns out way worse than most of us thought back then.

[AuntKrazy]

No apology necessary, but thank you. 

2 minutes ago, SnarkyLawyer said:

In my opinion, CSA images should give law enforcement probable cause to interview the perpetrator's children for suspected abuse, especially when the age ranges are the same. If the SO or spouse cooperates, a GAL isn't necessary, but if not, I believe it should be grounds for the court to appoint one. That is only my opinion, and apparently, not what the law states. Images and physical abuse are treated as completely separate issues.

I just want to reiterate what you said here - as I find it incomprehensible that possession of CSAI is not automatic probable cause for investigating CSA.     

 

[SweetLaurel]

21 minutes ago, SunnySide said:

I have seen this advice multiple times from women of various circumstances. It is worth repeating so “the people in the back may hear” as the saying goes. Financial abuse may not be talked about as much as other forms of intimate partner abuse; but it is very real, takes many forms and most of all is just another way to control someone. Just like all types of abuse it can happen to any gender, but my guess is that especially in fundie land it happens to women far more often than men. 

 Even women with an education and two or three kids in 'mainstream'  life feel stuck.  'He makes more' or is the only breadwinner.  "I'll be on welfare and the judge will award him custody."  "I don't have three months deposit for an apartment and I'll be homelesss. and he will take the kids."   "I don't see any options."  They feel trapped and stuck.   One woman told me, "I'm just staying for the money, you know what that makes me, right?"   Those are women with young kids, and then you talk about the ones who haven't worked in decades - and a fundie woman would still have small kids - and he leaves her for his mid life crisis or dies and she's  - you would not believe the panicked miserable life changed stories I've heard.  I feel so badly for these brainwashed women who this never even occurs to "he will support and be with me forever and will always be the sweet adoring man he is now. Life will be great, 'cause Jesus!"   Yeah.  No.  

[Cheetah]

47 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

To be an expert...

I have always wondered why an adult Josh is able to make untoward decisions ...he clearly has the ability to make those choices, yet he has the inability to use BC or get a vasectomy or file for divorce. Why does he have the ability to make destructive decisions, yet seems stymied when it comes to making more healthy decisions? This guy is all kinds of screwed up.

It would be far healthier for Josh, Anna and their kids if they limited family size or ended their sham of a marriage. 

To me he seems to be acting like a teenager.... he wants to stay under his parents' control to a certain extent for the benefits of not having to adult too much (eg, having built-in child care, having housing and a job that he doesn't need to work especially hard for, etc) but he also acts out against that control by making poor decisions.  

[nokidsmom]

12 minutes ago, Mela99 said:

I think, if anything, Anna will go to Florida to live with the kids. They will never actually divorce. And in a few years, thanks to the influence of her parents and in-laws, Smug will worm himself back into her graces.

Agreed, I think of this as one of the more likely scenarios.   I am inclined to think that Anna will stay with him, no matter what, probably remain living around the TTH while he possibly does time, but also I can see her going back to Florida.   She can be around her own family as one way of gaining some space from the situation but at the same time, still remaining married to Josh.  

Honestly I think that if any divorce, however unlikely, happens down the line, I am inclined to think it will be Josh who will pull the trigger.  I can see where he just might think he has nothing to lose anymore, and I have posted earlier that possibly he's already there which is why he got caught in his current predicament.  

4 minutes ago, Cheetah said:

To me he seems to be acting like a teenager.... he wants to stay under his parents' control to a certain extent for the benefits of not having to adult too much (eg, having built-in child care, having housing and a job that he doesn't need to work especially hard for, etc) but he also acts out against that control by making poor decisions.  

I knew someone like this.    Grown man in late 40s BTW, going on 18, I am not kidding    He really didn't have much tolerance for responsibility which I am fairly certain contributed to his then ongoing second divorce and he made some unbelievably impulsive WTF decisions.   

[Cam]

The stereotype that men must be both the breadwinner and financial manager of the household is still a strong one. Imo, this was reinforced with TV shows that began in the 1950s, written, produced and directed by men. They created (fictional!) women who were subservient homemakers and moms, perfectly coiffed; the men were the heroes bringing home the bacon and doling out the cash. I can't watch those old shows on MeTV, or I start to hyperventilate. 

In some ways. I have a traditional marriage. One exception is that while my husband is better at making money, I'm better at managing it. Lots of self-learning over the years but I haven't done badly. 

Still, I know my husband feels almost a little embarrassed, like he should understand money more than he does. He's not totally clueless by any means, but in terms of savings and investing and allotting money to various areas, there are certain concepts he doesn't grasp. I still don't think he understands how a medical insurance co-pay works. And it was me who explained college costs to our son and how student loans worked. Son has thanked me profusely many times because he graduated with a minimum amount of college debt several years ago which is now almost completely paid. 

But, if my husband had insisted he take care of all of that, our finances would be a disaster! (And our marriage, too). So I don't get the "male leadership in all areas because penis brains are always smarter than uterus ones" mentality. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Cam

[allyisyourpally5]

I remember the early specials, when Michelle talked about the buddy system and passing the baby onto a buddy once weaned to get read for the next.....

I remember one of the kids showing the camera the sign up sheet they had to use if they needed to talk to mom and dad outside the already allotted time.

The special where they travelled to California, something stuck out to me then and now makes so much sense it makes me shiver. Josh and JD had a separate campavan all to themselves to sleep in. Maybe Joseph was in there too. The other 13 children plus JB and Michelle squeezed into the remaining motor home. They showed them finding a space to sleep and I remember thinking this is ridiculous, JB and M should split and have say boys and JB in one and Michelle and girls plus maybe baby boys in the other, roughly down the middle.

I now realise why it had to be that way and it’s just crap.

I don’t deny that Josh had a likely shit and pretty neglected upbringing in many ways  that likely contributed greatly to the path he took. He was deprived of real attention, education and knowledge. They all were. Also agree that it seems to stem further back.

But this doesn’t excuse his crime at all. Plenty of others have equally shitty or worse situations and don’t do this. 
 

I feel sorry for innocent Duggar’s who’s names will now be forever linked with this and it will definitely cause problems down the line. I hope JB and Michelle are completely knocked off their throne. Anyone in the family who continues to defend him if found guilty also needs a knock.

 

[fraurosena]

23 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I look forward to reading that.  I always appreciate the thoughtfulness you put into your replies.

I've learned a lot of FJ over the years just from being exposed to points of view sometimes very different than my own.   Over the years I've questioned things I believe, some have changed dramatically, some are unchanged but I'm better at explaining why when asked because of discussions here where I've had to examine why I hold certain things to be true.

You have a way of discussing things that is both direct yet so civil it's always an interesting exchange of ideas rather than snippy bickering.  Conversations with you always make me want to learn more, listen more. 

Then it wears off and I go back to my seat in the back of the snippy bickering class.  I'm a work in progress, not there yet.

 

Thank you for the compliment! It made me blush. ?  I try to live by a simple creed: never judge others. Form an opinion, but never, ever judge. I can only walk in my own shoes, not in anyone else’s, and I am not superior to anyone else. So who am I to judge? Of course I have opinions, and sometimes rather strong ones at that, but opinions can change with new insights, and I always try to be open to them. Just like you, I too have learned a lot on FJ in the past years. I have found that by being open to and non-judgmental about other opinions, my perspective has broadened and I can understand others better. But don’t worry, I can be pretty bitchy and snippy IRL, when I don’t always take the time to reflect before I respond like I can before I post online. 

On 5/9/2021 at 6:35 PM, formergothardite said:

Doesn't that mean giving a pass to all sorts of people who do awful things? The people who beat their kids to death for God. The Trump supporters who staged a violent insurrection because they truly believed what Trump told them? The people who spent years covering up for Gothard because they were true believers? If Gothard actually believed all his stuff do we give him a pass? Do we never hold these people responsible for their actions in your opinion? 

As promised, I would post my extended thoughts about this. Like I said in my short answer: no, it does not. Brainwashing influences what you think about things, it diminishes ones ‘agency of thought'. But it does not take away one’s ability to discern the difference between basic right and wrong, basic good and bad. It may fudge the edges, and you can believe it’s ok to hit children with plumbing line to punish them, but you know full well it’s wrong to torture them or kill them — for a god or otherwise.

The insurrectionist Trump supporters may have believed what Trump (and Faux, OANN and Newsmax) about a stolen election, but they knew that what they did was wrong and unlawful. Breaking and entering, violently attacking police officers and setting out to kill Pelosi and Pence is not at all acceptable behaviour, and they knew it. They just believed that they could get away with it.

And Gothard? Ugh, I can’t even with the hypothesis that he actually believed what he preached. But ok, for arguments sake: even if he actually believed it, it still doesn’t take away his knowledge of basic right and wrong. And you can bet he knew that his own actions were wrong. Why else would he try to cover it up?

As for Anna… Even though I think she is brainwashed, and believes in a wife’s submissiveness, in a god that is cruel enough to condemn innocent children to hell if they don’t ‘accept him into their hearts’, and that she should pump out baby after baby after baby, I don’t doubt she knows the difference between basic good and bad. She knows it’s wrong to break the law. She knows it’s good to love and protect children, and that it’s bad to torture and maim them. She knows it is bad what Josh has done. And she knows it is not simply bad, she knows it is very, very bad indeed.

So, she will get a pass from me for her beliefs and not outgrowing them on her own. But she won’t for actions that transgress basic tenets of right and wrong.

And now I'm going back to read the gazillion posts I haven't read yet since yesterday... 

[feministxtian]

2 minutes ago, allyisyourpally5 said:

But this doesn’t excuse his crime at all. Plenty of others have equally shitty or worse situations and don’t do this.

Trying to understand the pathology behind Josh and excusing the behaviors are two different things. 

I can understand why my child committed the crimes she did, however, she got no pass from me. Once she got her comeuppance, that is, a multi-year prison sentence, she got her head out of her @$$ and it dawned on her that maybe she's NOT smarter than everyone else, seeing as how she got caught. It worked for her. She's clean, sober, law-abiding and soon to have her Master's degree. I can only hope the same for Josh. 

***my kids are NOT NOT NOT angels. I accept blame for some of what happened, as if I had made better choices along the line. HOWEVER...they made their choices too. Blaming me for their faults only goes but so far, as blaming my parents, my X, etc. only goes so far when it comes to my epic fuckups. 

Yes, Josh had a fucked up childhood and the dynamics there were decidedly not "normal", but, he also had the agency to make certain choices, he did know right from wrong. 

[Cam]

3 hours ago, Drala said:

When I was raising my children back in the 80's, I was OK with kids acting like kids and didn't put a whole lot of stock into making sure they were always well behaved.  Humans need to go through developmental stages and be allowed to make mistakes as they're learning and growing.   It seems to me that repressing immature or annoying behavior in kids for the sake of making them obedient and "well behaved" will only delay their need for acting out behavior into adulthood.  

 

Yes to this!

[gustava]

Does anyone know what's in the LLC's that are in Anna's name?  Are the contents worth anything?

[RainbowSky]

13 minutes ago, gustava said:

Does anyone know what's in the LLC's that are in Anna's name?  Are the contents worth anything?

A house and some land IIRC.