[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 30: LaCounting On to His Trial Date

[mrs]

I haven't posted in years. I can't believe this is just coming to light.

 

Remember, back on the yuku boards when we were talking about the sin in the camp?! The broken engagement. The Oprah scandal.  TWOP rumors? The conspiracy seems to be true. ALL OF IT. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

11 minutes ago, mrs said:

I haven't posted in years. I can't believe this is just coming to light.

 

Remember, back on the yuku boards when we were talking about the sin in the camp?! The broken engagement. The Oprah scandal.  TWOP rumors? The conspiracy seems to be true. ALL OF IT. 

I remember the sin in the camp and Oprah things about the molestations, but haven't heard of a conspiracy, besides JB/M wanting to keep it quiet.  Was there something else?  Was it from Alice?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, Sabine said:

i don't think he can be healed, but maybe he can be made to understand that only he can literally set Anna and the kids free. And that he can let her raise the kids without interference from JimBob and his handmaid. 

I think there are a lot of kind people on this thread who have hope they he can change in some way.  It's human nature to try to understand and to assume others have some potential for empathy.

Putting the well being of Anna or the kids isn't something he's capable of doing.  And I don't mean he wants to and tries but fails, I mean he doesn't have the emotional or mental capacity to think that way.  This isn't a guy who had an affair or indulged in some consensual, but in their lifestyle deviant, behavior with adults.  The material with which he was caught proves he doesn't see children as people.  If he saw children as human beings entitled to consideration there is no way he could have done what he did.  

I think we can expect Josh to do exactly what he thinks will benefit him nothing else.  He'll go to therapy as it will make him look better to the board deciding if he should be let out early for good behavior.  He will stay with Anna as long as it's practically convenient for him to do so.  He doesn't think like we do and so ascribing anything resembling normal thought processes to him is futile.

[Cam]

13 hours ago, amaznmom2u said:

The Church is currently facing a crisis as fewer men are being called to serve BECAUSE of the abuse, so a lot of work/research is being done into how to minister with a shrinking priesthood. The Church now discourages 1v1 counseling and recommends priests have, get this, "accountability partners"!!!!!1!11!!!!

I am Catho-lite, I still love my church and rituals and even still use my very first rosary. Yet I also find comfort in other idealogies: Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, for example.  (This last part was just a ramble thought for those who were questioning their own spirituality. Truthfully we don't know what will happen, so however you find comfort and peace is acceptable, imho)

“Wherever you find comfort and peace is acceptable imho”. On some levels I very much agree, and I always try to be respectful of the faiths of others. Yet here we both are, members of a forum that finds fundie lifestyle questionable at best. And I definitely am against cults, yet many find “comfort” there. So I’m pulled in a few directions with this statement.

Yes, there’s a decrease in men called to the priesthood due to the pedophilia epidemic uncovered in the Catholic Church. Another reason is birth control, and by that I mean, because of it, there are far less huge Catholic families that were so prevalent back in the day. Used to be, out of each large family, it was always assumed at least one of the boys would enter the priesthood which was like a glowing holy badge of honor status symbol for the parents. 

 

[Drala]

11 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

No matter what JB & Michelle believe, before falling asleep at night, they have to feel creeped out that they raised a son who would get off watching this. I wonder what they think about the scripture they repeat, “Train up a child in the way he should go and he will not depart from it”? I wonder if they will admit to each other in private that it didn’t work. Michelle loved all of the attention from Christian mothers who would ask her how she does it all and why the children are so well behaved.

When I was raising my children back in the 80's, I was OK with kids acting like kids and didn't put a whole lot of stock into making sure they were always well behaved.  Humans need to go through developmental stages and be allowed to make mistakes as they're learning and growing.   It seems to me that repressing immature or annoying behavior in kids for the sake of making them obedient and "well behaved" will only delay their need for acting out behavior into adulthood.  My kids could be absolute hellions when they were growing up, but as adults they've been wonderfully caring and responsible.

Josh may be a special case.  Kids develop empathy between ages three and nine, and Josh appears to have missed this developmental milestone altogether, although he was probably very well behaved at the time.   Michelle was likely too preoccupied with being a baby factory to notice any problems in her oldest child's psychosocial development, if she was even aware of the importance of that learning stage.

[Alisamer]

2 minutes ago, Drala said:

 Michelle was likely too preoccupied with being a baby factory to notice any problems in her oldest child's psychosocial development, if she was even aware of the importance of that learning stage.

Michelle seemed to me to literally ONLY care about the "sweet little babies!" Once they got to about 6 months or so the shine had worn off and she was eager to birth a new one. Josh, being the first, had M & JB to himself for about 2 years until the twins were born, though M had a miscarriage during this time. After that it was baby after baby after baby.

Once Josh was a preschooler I bet he had very little attention from mom, and probably not as much as he needed from JimBob either. 

I think that the Duggar parents are probably shocked at how terribly Josh turned out. And it's a bit early to say yet, but so far it looks like Jana and the older girls were better mothers to their siblings than Michelle was. 

It could just be the way he's wired, it could be something else. But the fact that the one Duggar child who ever got real 1 on 1 parenting (though only as an infant and young toddler) without other kids around demanding attention turned out to be the problem child makes me wonder. 

[SassyPants]

6 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

Michelle seemed to me to literally ONLY care about the "sweet little babies!" Once they got to about 6 months or so the shine had worn off and she was eager to birth a new one. Josh, being the first, had M & JB to himself for about 2 years until the twins were born, though M had a miscarriage during this time. After that it was baby after baby after baby.

Once Josh was a preschooler I bet he had very little attention from mom, and probably not as much as he needed from JimBob either. 

I think that the Duggar parents are probably shocked at how terribly Josh turned out. And it's a bit early to say yet, but so far it looks like Jana and the older girls were better mothers to their siblings than Michelle was. 

It could just be the way he's wired, it could be something else. But the fact that the one Duggar child who ever got real 1 on 1 parenting (though only as an infant and young toddler) without other kids around demanding attention turned out to be the problem child makes me wonder. 

Josh is obviously a couple of tweaks away from being a healthy, functional adult. I’d also point to Jana who in her family and cult, is also an outlier. Their birth positions likely came with additional stress and demands from their parents, which may have impacted them more so than their siblings. I always thought Jana was far quieter than her similarly aged cohort sibling group. While Josh acted out, Jana may have retreated. Just my observations from looking back on earlier years.

[Drala]

10 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

It could just be the way he's wired, it could be something else. But the fact that the one Duggar child who ever got real 1 on 1 parenting (though only as an infant and young toddler) without other kids around demanding attention turned out to be the problem child makes me wonder. 

I definitely think some people are born with a predisposition to sociopathic behavior, but there's also little doubt that nurture plays a role.  When I consider JB & M's extreme response to the miscarriage that followed Josh, I can't help but wonder how their unresolved grief might have impacted Josh.  The CSAI he most probably downloaded depicted the sexual torture of a toddler.  That's some really deep-rooted sh*t.

[Hane]

11 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

When it’s your close family, I’m going to bet you’re hoping for ways that it could somehow be a mistake. I sure as hell would.

Been there. Over 20 years ago, my cousin’s husband, a CPA, was considered “Mr. Clean.” When I mentioned I was calling him to ask about a tax question, someone told me, “Don’t ask him to help you cheat—he won’t!” (That was NOT my intention.)

He was the comptroller of a local hospital, and wound up making the news for tens of thousands of dollars of unauthorized expenses on his company credit card. We all thought it was some bean-counter run amok. No—it was porn purchases.

He was fired and started working for himself. Not long afterwards, he was found guilty of embezzling from an elderly woman whose conservator he was. He was treasurer of the choir his wife belonged to, and drained all its funds. He was treasurer of his Baptist church, and systematically replaced all the experienced members of its finance board with people clueless about money. When his wife learned about what he’d done to the choir’s funds, she went to the police. Soon afterwards, it was discovered that he’d completely drained the church’s entire endowment.

When the porn thing happened, my cousin wanted to leave him, but her mother, a very sweet but astoundingly naive woman (who had a blissfully happy marriage), told her, “He’s your husband! You can’t leave him at a time like this!” And then my cousin was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. (She’s alive and healthy now, thank God.)

When all this crap hit its peak, *he* left *her*. Now she’s in her 70s, and despite years and years of being a SAHW (no kids) and doing his clerical work, she lost her house and is making peanuts working at an office job. He wound up in the slammer for a year or two. Her own twin brother is astounded that she was oblivious to all her husband’s malfeasances.

My message here is LADIES, EARN YOUR OWN MONEY AND KEEP IT SECURED. Failing that, keep an eagle eye on your family finances.

[hauntedoklahoma]

3 hours ago, Dollypeeps said:

When Josh gets jailed does he have to do the therapy is it compulsory? 

 

 

 

I mean, whether or not they order it is a totally different question than whether or not he'll actually DO it. They can force him to sit there and listen to the therapist ask him questions or sit there in silence for an hour but they cannot force him to talk and/or participate. If he DOES talk they can't force him to be honest, either. He clearly does not want to change, so even if he were ordered to participate in therapy, it would be functionally useless to him.

[Jackie3]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Putting the well being of Anna or the kids isn't something he's capable of doing.

I think you have to run psychological tests on a person to know what they are capable of doing or not doing. Even then, these tests are pretty squishy. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Jackie3

[ContrastingButtons]

Getting a little ahead of myself, but couldn’t help putting it out there...

Josh & Anna 31: Charged on 2 LaCounts

(I can’t let the LeCount factor go.  ?)

Edited May 10, 2021 by ContrastingButtons

[OrchidBlossom]

8 hours ago, Whipple said:

I have always been of the minority opinion that Anna and Josh will divorce . I do not see this being a 50-year marriage. I have felt this way since before the facts came out about the first molestation scandal. Hear me out. She is going to outlive her parents and in-laws and maybe Josh will as well, Josh is radioactive and they will never have a church community, and her adult children may see their dad for the monster he is and resent her for staying and pressure her to leave. Alternatively, once the Duggar parents pass away, Josh will have no incentive to stay. He could also connect with a Steamy paramour while in prison. As soon as Anna is of no use to him, he will be gone. He treats women like objects.

I'd be super interested to hear why you have always thought they'd divorce. Someone commented ( @Sabine  I believe) that they saw Josh just leaving to get cigarettes (or like, idk, bibles?) and never coming back, and I have a much easier time picturing that just because as others have said he doesn't seem capable of considering others at all and just does what he wants. But I have a much harder time imagining Anna leaving him. She's stuck with him so far. And I can't really picture Josh filing for divorce. Pay for a lawyer? Pay spousal support? Child support? Seems like a lot of work and he is preeminently lazy. 

I'd love the perspective of a former IBLPer on whether they'll be radioactive/never have a church community after this. Considering how much shit IBLP covers up, I can easily imagine them letting him play the redemption card (again) but obviously this is such a shocking and horrifying situation, and with feds involved, that I do wonder if it changes the game for them.

Edited May 10, 2021 by OrchidBlossom
missed word

[dawbs]

well it's not like we actually offer anything resembling treatment for ANYTHING in our failure of a prison system.  We don't adequately provide counseling or pharmaceuticals to things easily diagnosable, let alone things we REALLY don't understand.

Basically you should assume that nobody gets adequate services.

Quote

As of 2000, 13 percent of State prison inmates (approximately 79 percent of those with mental disorders) were receiving some type of regular counseling or therapy from a trained professional.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK64123/#:~:text=As of 2000%2C 13 percent,(Beck and Maruschak 2001).

[HerNameIsBuffy]

26 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

I think you have to run psychological tests on a person to know what they are capable of doing or not doing. Even then, these tests are pretty squishy. 

In most cases yes.  In cases with the material he had, no.  I am fully comfortable writing him off as a human being incapable of seeing others as actual people based on that alone.

Because if you see children as people you can't have done what he did.  Sorry, I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[Jackie3]

13 minutes ago, OrchidBlossom said:

'd be super interested to hear why you have always thought they'd divorce. Someone commented ( @Sabine  I believe) that they saw Josh just leaving to get cigarettes (or like, idk, bibles?) and never coming back, and I have a much easier time picturing that just because as others have said he doesn't seem capable of considering others at all and just does what he wants.

Oh, I definitely think Josh will divorce Anna. Maybe not right away (he'll need her support in prison). But once he gets out. 

Josh doesn't want to be married to one woman for the next 40 years. He wants a lot of other sexual things, instead (many of them deviant and illegal). 

As for child support, that's not a problem. First of all, if he was a good man, he'd support 7 kids whether married or divorce. In other words, getting divorced won't change his child support obligations. However, he may choose to divorce and become a deadbeat dad. Lots of guys do that.

It may be painful to hear that he could hurt Anna so much--first, by his sexual deviance/adultery AND THEN by breaking up a marriage I think she wants to preserve. But if Josh is putting himself first, as I think he will, then divorce is the way he'll get the lifestyle he wants.

I doubt he'll go to prison for life. After that, he'll probably choose to divorce and then live the life he wants, though as a registered sex offender.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Jackie3

[HerNameIsBuffy]

10 minutes ago, OrchidBlossom said:

I'd be super interested to hear why you have always thought they'd divorce. Someone commented ( @Sabine  I believe) that they saw Josh just leaving to get cigarettes (or like, idk, bibles?) and never coming back, and I have a much easier time picturing that just because as others have said he doesn't seem capable of considering others at all and just does what he wants. But I have a much harder time imagining Anna leaving him. She's stuck with him so far. And I can't really picture Josh filing for divorce. Pay for a lawyer? Pay spousal support? Child support? Seems like a lot of work and he is preeminently lazy. 

I'd love the perspective of a former IBLPer on whether they'll be radioactive/never have a church community after this. Considering how much shit IBLP covers up, I can easily imagine them letting him play the redemption card (again) but obviously this is such a shocking and horrifying situation, and with feds involved, that I do wonder if it changes the game for them.

@formergothardite posted her insight as to how this is playing out in Gothard's world over the weekend.  

 

[Jackie3]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

In most cases yes.  In cases with the material he had, no.  I am fully comfortable writing him off as a human being incapable of seeing others as actual people based on that alone.

Because if you see children as people you can't have done what he did.  Sorry, I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Why would anyone give him the benefit of the doubt?

[Grumpy Grandma]

An "if" question- If he were convicted, or plea bargains, is there a chance he will be prevented access to his kids upon release? Do the courts put some sort of safeguard in place for the kids post-release (assuming Anna remains married to him)? 

[libgirl2]

He won't divorce Anna and vice versa. Maybe they will just live apart? I had an Aunt who separated from her husband and they lived apart for something like 40 years.... in different countries! Yes, Catholics don't divorce, at least they didn't. 

[Whipple]

I actually cannot say why I thought they would divorce before all of this went down.  It's just that a lot can happen in 50-60 years. And even people like Anna have their limits when it comes to mental health and what she can tolerate.  It was clear to me that even in the early episodes, he was abusive. Maybe my own experience comes into play. I was NEVER going to divorce my ex-husband, absolute NEVER. I didn't believe in divorce and was a little judgmental about people who did. That was another lifetime ago and I have a lot more understanding and regrets. Anyway, it came down to my own mental health. We were all circling the drain and I had absolutely no choice.  She may have a breakdown. It happened to Marie Osmond who allegedly tolerated abuse for decades until she could take no more. It was down to her own survival. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Whipple
drew lines through it and shouldn't have.

[closetcagebaby]

3 minutes ago, Grumpy Grandma said:

An "if" question- If he were convicted, or plea bargains, is there a chance he will be prevented access to his kids upon release? Do the courts put some sort of safeguard in place for the kids post-release (assuming Anna remains married to him)? 

This is extremely unlikely. It’s very very hard to get parental rights removed and even if he was convicted, I don’t think they would be able to do this. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, Whipple said:

I actually cannot say why I thought they would divorce before all of this went down.  It's just that a lot can happen in 50-60 years. And even people like Anna have their limits when it comes to mental health and what she can tolerate.  It was clear to me that even in the early episodes, he was abusive. Maybe my own experience comes into play. I was NEVER going to divorce my ex-husband, absolute NEVER. I didn't believe in divorce and was a little judgmental about people who did. That was another lifetime ago and I have a lot more understanding and regrets. Anyway, it came down to my own mental health. We were all circling the drain and I had absolutely no choice.  She may have a breakdown. It happened to Marie Osmond who allegedly tolerated abuse for decades until she could take no more. It was down to her own survival. 

I know how hard it is. I'm sorry you went through that and I'm glad you did finally come down on the side of self-preservation.   

[onekidanddone]

12 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

However, he may choose to divorce and become a deadbeat dad. Lots of guys do that.

He had basically been a deadbeat dad from day one

[Dandruff]

1 hour ago, Drala said:

I definitely think some people are born with a predisposition to sociopathic behavior, but there's also little doubt that nurture plays a role.  When I consider JB & M's extreme response to the miscarriage that followed Josh, I can't help but wonder how their unresolved grief might have impacted Josh.

I suspect that a lot of pressure was put on Josh at that time to become the ideal, Gothard-trained young man and role model, while positive attention was being focused on a seemingly-endless stream of babies.  With each new sibling, Josh would have had more responsibility while also dealing with more noise, strict discipline, and fewer available resources (e.g., "rice three ways").  He was taken out of school.  JB wanted a position in government and was flipping a coin to decide his next move.  Michelle, at some point, couldn't even handle the laundry.  They were all supposed to trust in Jesus.  It can't have been easy.

The situation at the Bates home may have been similar but Zach Bates appears to be OK.  Were the circumstances actually much more challenging at the Duggar home?  Was Josh born predisposed?  Could there have been some other factor we don't know about?