(CW: Child Sex Abuse) Josh & Anna 29: Left with Nothing but a Flip Phone Full of Shame

[Cam]

2 hours ago, Alice in Fundieland said:

 “When you teach your daughter, explicitly or by passive rejection, that she must ignore her outrage, that she must be kind and accepting to the point of not defending herself or other people, that she must not rock the boat for any reason, you are not strengthening her pro social sense; you are damaging it — and the first person she will stop protecting is herself.” 

****

‘the world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.’”

Powerful quotes!

[seraaa]

16 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I think it was pretty obvious she was talking about people who still operate as children being both financially dependent upon and servile to their parents.  Do you honestly think she meant anyone who works for a family business?  Or that if the reasons were some type of disability where they were not able to live independently she meant them?  

You have to apply some common sense when reading posts or everyone is going to need to put disclaimers on everything.  

It was not obvious to me, which is why I commented.

I am also very, very overtired though, and my sensitivity to this topic right now is probably a sign I should actually go sleep

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, RainbowSky said:

A *lot* of people will talk down to others who work for family businesses. Honestly, that's gross. Like people who "only" work fast food or retail, etc. That isn't good enough so they aren't contributing to society. 

Up until this job I worked for family businesses my whole career.  Some family members are absolutely only employed due to nepotism and couldn't function in the real world, some are excellent and the businesses are lucky to have them as they'd be an asset to any organization, and the vast majority are run of the mill employees who are just fine.

My point was there was nothing that would indicate @Coconut Flan was speaking about anything outside the context of this discussion or disparaging wide swaths of people no one is even talking about.  If we all had to put disclaimers on everything we say posting will become quite a tedious project. 

Like I should probably put a disclaimer here that I am not speaking for CF, haven't gotten authorization from her to assume she was speaking as a reasonable person within the context of the discussion.  I don't have verifiable proof that she didn't mean to say everyone who has ever worked for a family business or who lives with their folks due to an actual inability to live on their own have terrible parents, but I'm going to go ahead and work under that assumption until she states otherwise.   

[coffeebean7]

3 hours ago, Sullie06 said:

Unfortunately a lot of sex offenders are on Probation. They usually get 10 years felony Probation, have to register as sex offenders, cannot have access to electronics, etc. The push to keep people out of incarceration is stronger than ever. We have a teenager on Probation right now for Attempted Murder. 

Oh I know it.  Lovely field to work in.

[neuroticcat]

2 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

I feel anyone willing to spend money listening to JB and Jchell speak after molestation came to light are still go to continue to listen if Josh goes to jail.  Cultists gonna cult

Yes and I think it could be spun as part of their testimony - how to deal with hard times/rebellious children/ suffering. 
 

It also might be a draw to fundies who are jealous of them - sort of a how the mighty have fallen. 
 

Unless it cracks their core enough to actually examine their beliefs there are many ways it could be part of their “ministry” and they might see/sell it as such. 

[Cam]

Regardless of what their religion tells them to do, don’t you think there are members of the church the Duggars attend who don’t care for them and will scour the internet to read up on all the Josh dirt? Surely there is whispered gossip going around the congregation about the extent of the charges. I think especially at least some of the parents of young children will be repulsed and not “forgive” Josh just because Jesus tell ‘em to. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 minutes ago, coffeebean7 said:

Oh I know it.  Lovely field to work in.

Out of curiosity how do they enforce the no electronics thing? I'm trying to think of how you'd police that at home and I can't come up with an effective way to do it.

And does it apply to the workplace?  Like if we hire someone for a production position they won't need to use the computer, but if they are promoted to supervisor they will.  In those cases would someone who was barred from using electronics be able to get a waiver for work?  

[bertnee]

A couple days ago, someone posted that they learned about the dark web from a true crime podcast. I found the podcast they referenced because I really don't know much about the dark web and how it works. The podcast was specifically talking about the horrific video by the Australian man, which was referenced by the prosecutor in Josh's case as one of the worst ever and was apparently one of the files Josh had on his computer. I could only listen to it for a few minutes. I can't comprehend it. I'd like to know that the child victims are alive and safe now and being helped, but I can't even search for it because I really don't want to know more about the video and obviously I don't even know the names of the victims. But I just really hope they are. I truly can't understand anyone wanting to participate or view that kind of abuse. And I especially can't understand someone who has a child of their own wanting to view that.

Edited May 6, 2021 by bertnee

[purple_summer]

2 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

A healthy young man with no particular skill set? Lots of families have a father like this. They earn a living through unskilled labor. They aren't rich, but I'd hardly call them "fucked." I know plenty of families like this, who are perfectly happy, and have no idea that others think they are fucked.

I think the difference here is that most young men, even if they aren’t particularly skilled, have had experience in the real world. They’ve gone to school, played sports, generally been in environments where you follow rules that don’t necessarily fit your beliefs/preferences. I mean the Duggars constantly brag about being on “Duggar time”, that doesn’t bode well for clocking in at a set time every day. 

[Galbin]

1 hour ago, violynn said:

How do you know which CSA material that Josh downloaded?  I didn't see anything mentioned in the reddit thread where the trial was being described about particular identified CP.  And there's a documentary on it?  I'm sure it's horrifically traumatic.

It was on Reddit. Trust me, you don't want to know. I really wish I didn't know about it.

[luv2laugh]

Daily Fail has more information on the Rebers https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9549899/Josh-Duggar-taken-clean-cut-Christian-couple-hes-released-jail.html

[neuroticcat]

2 hours ago, anjulibai said:

There's no doubt in my mind the children will be heavily coached on what to say, with all sorts of fear and guilt tactics used. 

Yes, and honestly they already have been. Blanket trained, instant obedience  kids simply will not be able to speak against their parents.

I wasn’t even raised in a fundie household but it was verbally and emotionally abusive. I remember a therapist for some reason asking me questions about our home life and I 100 percent lied because I wanted to give the right answer. 
 

How much more so to children who have literally been beaten into cheerful compliance and a godlike view of parents. I do think trained professionals will see flags but that is different from getting proof. 

[ladyaudley]

holy moly, i've taken time off of here because *gestures all around* and now I tangentially found out about this ? So much for all the "treatment" he vowed to have after Ashley Madison

[luv2laugh]

7 minutes ago, bertnee said:

And I especially can't understand someone who has a child of their own wanting to view that.

The predator who produced the CSA is a father of 2 children himself... In the 60 Minutes interview, they asked him how he could be a father and hurt other children and he wouldn’t respond. He smiled, laughed, and is a raging psychopath.

Edited May 6, 2021 by luv2laugh

[FunFunFundie]

1 minute ago, neuroticcat said:

Yes, and honestly they already have been. Blanket trained, instant obedience  kids simply will not be able to speak against their parents.

I wasn’t even raised in a fundie household but it was verbally and emotionally abusive. I remember a therapist for some reason asking me questions about our home life and I 100 percent lied because I wanted to give the right answer. 
 

How much more so to children who have literally been beaten into cheerful compliance and a godlike view of parents. I do think trained professionals will see flags but that is different from getting proof. 

In my experience (my daughter was in therapy for anxiety pretty young, which is very different, but it was a brush with child therapists), therapists are skilled at learning about tough situations from kids through things like indirect play.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

A healthy young man with no particular skill set? Lots of families have a father like this. They earn a living through unskilled labor. They aren't rich, but I'd hardly call them "fucked." I know plenty of families like this, who are perfectly happy, and have no idea that others think they are fucked.

I was talking about one specific person and no one else.

Yes, I consider someone with a SOTDRT taught by Michelle Duggar education, three small children, and no work experience outside of his shady father fucked.  He can unfuck his life if he gets out and starts earning independently, but three kids are expensive.  He's not like the unmarried or the newly married without kids...he can't just get a studio or 1 bedroom cute little place and both work while they establish themselves.  They need a bigger place so all of their living expenses will be higher.  

Three kids are no joke financially.  Sending Kendra off to work won't help much as day care will likely be more than she could earn, so unless they do split shifts it's cheaper for her to be home with the kids.  (And split shifts is a huge change for a SAHM who never expected to work.) 

Three kids need health care, unlike the singles and newly marrieds who can roll the dice for a bit like millions of young healthy people do.  It's not okay that anyone has to make that choice, but they can choose to be uninsured and someone with three children cannot.  

Idk how many of the people you're talking about were raised to revere the authority of their father only with no thought to ever working for anyone else, but that's a very small subset of people outside of the fundiverse.  

So yeah, I stand behind saying Joe and Kendra are fucked if they can't get out from under....and if they don't decide to limit the size of their family they may never get unfucked because he's not going to be able to replicate his Daddy's TLC hustle.  

[neuroticcat]

1 hour ago, gustava said:

What does John David do?

Isn’t he a pilot or something? ?

1 hour ago, ihaveanexamintwodays said:

this whole situation is not only horrific, but really highlights how little agency this cult is. The women are conditioned to "want" what their husbands tell them, and the whole borg isolates themselves from experiences like college, or even external experiences that are less "out-there".

I really do feel bad for Mrs. Reber. Her husband sounds like a typical asshole fundie man. Her son is involved with the Freedomists podcast that all the middle Duggar kids are into, Jed/Jer were just groomsmen in the son/DIL's wedding. The son & daughter seem to both be friends with the younger half of the Dugglets, if the Rebers have only been Duggar-adjacent for a few years it'd make sense that they've heard of Josh but only really interact with the younger kids. maybe the SAHD teaches piano lessons to the Lost Girls or something? 

I also think the same questions about fundie women’s agency/responsibility  is true here too though. Yes, the men rule, but many of the women are ardent defenders and believers in that. It’s a public statement of her piety and submission that she supports her husband despite her misgivings.

Some of the most ardent fundie biblical nonsense defenders I have met are the women and she may very well see this as her ministry opportunity/death to self/ serving other Christians in need. 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by neuroticcat
Typos everywhere! Blame Josh.

[OrchidBlossom]

15 minutes ago, bertnee said:

A couple days ago, someone posted that they learned about the dark web from a true crime podcast. I found the podcast they referenced because I really don't know much about the dark web and how it works. The podcast was specifically talking about the horrific video by the Australian man, which was referenced by the prosecutor in Josh's case as one of the worst ever and was apparently one of the files Josh had on his computer. I could only listen to it for a few minutes. I can't comprehend it. I'd like to know that the child victims are alive and safe now and being helped, but I can't even search for it because I really don't want to know more about the video and obviously I don't even know the names of the victims. But I just really hope they are. I truly can't understand anyone wanting to participate or view that kind of abuse. And I especially can't understand someone who has a child of their own wanting to view that.

I believe two of the children were rescued and reunited with their families. Unfortunately, one was killed. I remember reading about the case when it first happened.

[SassyPants]

2 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I was talking about one specific person and no one else.

Yes, I consider someone with a SOTDRT taught by Michelle Duggar education, three small children, and no work experience outside of his shady father fucked.  He can unfuck his life if he gets out and starts earning independently, but three kids are expensive.  He's not like the unmarried or the newly married without kids...he can't just get a studio or 1 bedroom cute little place and both work while they establish themselves.  They need a bigger place so all of their living expenses will be higher.  

Three kids are no joke financially.  Sending Kendra off to work won't help much as day care will likely be more than she could earn, so unless they do split shifts it's cheaper for her to be home with the kids.  (And split shifts is a huge change for a SAHM who never expected to work.) 

Three kids need health care, unlike the singles and newly marrieds who can roll the dice for a bit like millions of young healthy people do.  It's not okay that anyone has to make that choice, but they can choose to be uninsured and someone with three children cannot.  

Idk how many of the people you're talking about were raised to revere the authority of their father only with no thought to ever working for anyone else, but that's a very small subset of people outside of the fundiverse.  

So yeah, I stand behind saying Joe and Kendra are fucked if they can't get out from under....and if they don't decide to limit the size of their family they may never get unfucked because he's not going to be able to replicate his Daddy's TLC hustle.  

And this right here is another reason why I think what JB +M did is criminal. None of those kids is going to have the money producing ride that there parents received. And in the process of putting his kids to work to support the family, he denied all of them the education, values and skills that are necessary to successfully live and support a family in our current world. On top of that, JB planted the seed that using BC was a sin against God. The Duggars literally set their kids up for failure. He, in particular, never wanted to lose control over his kids. JB and M are users and abusers.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, neuroticcat said:

Isn’t he a pilot or something? ?

Ha!  But I do have a serious question, is this something he does full time?  Are there enough people there paying for private shuttle service to make it a full time gig?  Crop dusting?  

I know his constable gig is unpaid, but he used to run the Duggar tow truck business.  Is he still doing that?  I know he's always had a reputation around here and the least lazy Duggar, but I have no idea if he's working enough to support his family on his own.   I mean the plane stuff it's Mommy and Daddy's plane so in that he works for them...anyone know if he works outside of a business owned either by his parents or co-owned with siblings?

[NoKidsAndCounting]

Josh has been officially released to the Rebers.  Maybe they can install cameras running in Josh's "quarters" 24/7, without sound to protect any legal conversations?

[nausicaa]

I really wish people who admitted they "didn't know the depths of human depravity" until now (a pretty stunning admission of naivete by an adult) would realize they aren't qualified to be speculating on the psychology of child molesters because of a couple Google searches. And that they aren't just "asking questions." They're ginning up the drama, whether they realize it or not.

I really wish a certain poster would learn a lesson from the Turpin thread after they were called out. It's exhausting. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by nausicaa
Edited to make more general because I don't need emotional vampires sucking my life force out.

[SassyPants]

Just now, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Ha!  But I do have a serious question, is this something he does full time?  Are there enough people there paying for private shuttle service to make it a full time gig?  Crop dusting?  

I know his constable gig is unpaid, but he used to run the Duggar tow truck business.  Is he still doing that?  I know he's always had a reputation around here and the least lazy Duggar, but I have no idea if he's working enough to support his family on his own.   I mean the plane stuff it's Mommy and Daddy's plane so in that he works for them...anyone know if he works outside of a business owned either by his parents or co-owned with siblings?

Does JB own the mobile home park where JD lives? Wasn’t there some talk that JD was working on the RV park that JB wanted to open?

[frugalitymom]

He has been released 

https://www.5newsonline.com/article/news/crime/josh-duggar-released-on-bond-evidence-made-clear/527-06c496de-614c-461a-ab35-1dcda8984442?fbclid=IwAR1oqwq5_zm9RPv5x_hBmeQ0ueOtg039t0oh0kxjDSLOsoQpfTKEoMIThc8

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, SassyPants said:

And this right here is another reason why I think what JB +M did is criminal. None of those kids is going to have the money producing ride that there parents received. And in the process of putting his kids to work to support the family, he denied all of them the education, values and skills that are necessary to successfully live and support a family in our current world. On top of that, JB planted the seed that using BC was a sin against God. The Duggars literally set their kids up for failure. He, in particular, never wanted to lose control over his kids. JB and M are users and abusers.

Agreed - and because they had most of those kids while still broke and then TLC came along to make JB and M millionaires it just reinforces the magical thinking that you can have a ton of babies and God will not only provide, but reward.  JB and M are living breathing prosperity gospel right at home.