(CW: Child Sex Abuse) Josh & Anna 29: Left with Nothing but a Flip Phone Full of Shame

[closetcagebaby]

21 minutes ago, FunFunFundie said:

The podcast "Sword and Scale" covered this guy and while I am a murderino and fascinated by true crime, I had to turn it off midway. Like, scrambling to grab my phone and hit the pause button as fast as I could because I couldn't take it.

Just a heads up that the host of that podcast is a horrible misogynist who pressures fans for nude photos and makes fun of victim’s families among other things. Not a good person to support. 

[Jillybits]

51 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

I did note that the court wants the M kids to undergo forensic examinations, which I believe includes medical exams.  I read somewhere that the Duggars are objecting to this.  

 

At least in Florida, a forensic exam for child sexual abuse consists of an interview of the child by someone trained to conduct child friendly interviews in a neutral environment without leading the child.  Medical exams would only be attempted if the child disclosed abuse that would leave physical evidence.  Most sexual abuse would not leave any evidence, such as touching or taking photos, and a medical exam would be useless and could traumatize the child.  A quote unquote normal physical exam on a child wouldn't prove or disprove anything, so I highly doubt they would be attempting that in this situation unless one of the children disclosed recent abuse that would leave physical evidence. 

[FunFunFundie]

4 minutes ago, closetcagebaby said:

Just a heads up that the host of that podcast is a horrible misogynist who pressures fans for nude photos and makes fun of victim’s families among other things. Not a good person to support. 

Thanks. I had a little bit of a sense of that but not fully.

[Alisamer]

7 minutes ago, bettertomarry said:

Do smart watches/Apple watches count as 'internet'?

It probably depends? My Apple watch doesn't have cell capacity and is wifi only, but when within bluetooth range of my phone can do many things a cellphone can do like answer/make calls and texts. I don't think it has a browser, though. (Although you can ask Siri questions that might bring up a link you can click on to see a wikipedia page or something.) It gives me weather and news alerts and stuff too. (Also it can call for help if I fall or have a car accident - I have it set to text my family with my location and then I think it will call 911 - it does this if it detects a "hard fall" and you don't move afterward and don't tell it you're OK after several notifications. It's like the up-to-date cooler version of the med-alert things!)

My fitbit couldn't do much of anything other than give me notifications, really. 

So a smart watch without cell capability with no cellphone nearby would rely on Wifi - if they locked him out of the Reber's wifi (assuming they have internet access), it would be extremely limited in capability I'd think. I highly doubt he could watch porn on it, at least*. With no internet capability it'd basically be a watch and fitness tracker only I'd think. 

*Unless he was dumb enough to put porn images as watch screen backgrounds. You can make any image a background for the Apple watch anyway. 

[SassyPants]

I just remembered something. In the early 2000’s, My then teen daughter (34 now)went  through a rough patch. She had always been easy and compliant but at this point she was horrid. She made our home life a living hell for about 18 months. We sought counseling, she moved away for college and it has all worked out. It was at this time I read about the squeaky clean, pure, God loving family with their maybe 13/14 kids and thought they must have all the answers...guess not.

And this is the #1 reason I despise JB. He is an arrogant liar. He sold his family for money touting Christian values and his way of life. I wonder how many other parents felt less than? Effing liar. So despicable to cloak all his lies in the Jesus banner!

[anjulibai]

14 minutes ago, Jillybits said:

 

At least in Florida, a forensic exam for child sexual abuse consists of an interview of the child by someone trained to conduct child friendly interviews in a neutral environment without leading the child.  Medical exams would only be attempted if the child disclosed abuse that would leave physical evidence.  Most sexual abuse would not leave any evidence, such as touching or taking photos, and a medical exam would be useless and could traumatize the child.  A quote unquote normal physical exam on a child wouldn't prove or disprove anything, so I highly doubt they would be attempting that in this situation unless one of the children disclosed recent abuse that would leave physical evidence. 

There's no doubt in my mind the children will be heavily coached on what to say, with all sorts of fear and guilt tactics used. 

[CosmicStardust]

40 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

A 33 year old creep living with virtual strangers who now have to keep an eye on him 24 hours a day. Their life has already been disrupted as their daughter can no longer hold her piano lessons in their house. I listened to Emily Baker (lawyer) earlier. She thought Mrs Rebers looked uncomfortable about the whole idea of having Josh under her roof. She is possibly just obeying her husband. ( I feel sick just typing that).

Smugger will be living his best life. No parental duties, no work to get up for.  I hope the Rebers live on a few acres, need their house re-decorated etc. They can at least set gardening and decor chores for him to do. The idea of him and his evil sardonic grin and grubby sweaty body just ‘couch potato - ing’ in that house makes my blood boils. Daddy Jim bucks will be footing the bill for his board and lodging obviously, I hope he can compensate the Rebers monetarily without getting them into bother with the courts. 
The Rebers probably feel they are doing the Christian thing but how on earth can they bear to look Smugs in the face every day knowing what he has been watching????? He needs to be accommodated in a basement somewhere , let out for chores/ fresh air then shoved back down the stairs. I hope they aren’t going to actually sit at the meal table 3 times a day with him. He deserves to eat after the family, in the kitchen by himself. I personally would choke if expected to eat a meal in his company. 
Rant sort of over. 

I too watched Emily D. Baker last night and her video covering this. She made note of the fact that the wife did indeed feel uncomfortable and was hesitant but then turned it around by saying she will support her husband basically. How vile! All in all I thought that video was done very well by Emily.  I honestly don’t know how anybody could take somebody in like that and be their babysitter knowing what he did. G.S. I totally agree. I just don’t know how the rest of the family/friends that supported and enabled him can say he’s innocent or otherwise.  The evidence and the proof is right there! He has a consistent, sick (twisted asf) problem and history with this crap. 

[Coconut Flan]

Pearls of wisdom from someone I used to work included never take parenting advice from someone whose children are not fully functioning contributing adults. 

[SweetLaurel]

14 minutes ago, Alice in Fundieland said:

“When you teach your daughter, explicitly or by passive rejection, that she must ignore her outrage, that she must be kind and accepting to the point of not defending herself or other people, that she must not rock the boat for any reason, you are not strengthening her pro social sense; you are damaging it — and the first person she will stop protecting is herself.” 
This is exactly what the Duggars do in the name of religion.

I was not raised in a cult - but in a 'Do as you are told, the first time you are told' household and the punishment for it was harsh, both physcial and emotionally.  I remember my dad taking a belt to my brother who was still in diapers because he was crying in his crib.   I have told the story before but when I was in fifth grade, I was walking home from school and a stranger stopped and told me he was a friend of my dad's and get in the car, he was taking me home.  I protested a couple times but he insisted and you did not tell adults No.  I got in the car thinking I was probably going to die today, which in my brain was better than telling an adult no.     I totally understand how brainwashed these girls are and I was a widow before I finally realized life could be different for me.  I still get afraid if I hear raised voices though - it's instinctive. I have a little more empathy for the females in the cult than many do.  

 

[luv2laugh]

I've been reading that a lot of child molesters tend to be an immediate family member. I'm trying to figure out if Anna would've known to look out for signs of Josh doing anything? Couldn't basic fatherly duties look similar? If the children are young and the father is helping to clean them, I'm trying to think of how Anna could've known.

Edited May 6, 2021 by luv2laugh

[CosmicStardust]

1 minute ago, anjulibai said:

There's no doubt in my mind the children will be heavily coached on what to say, with all sorts of fear and guilt tactics used. 

I hope that they do have the M kids checked out.  I really hope they are O.K.  I don’t doubt they will be manipulated big time.  SAD.

[FunFunFundie]

1 hour ago, anjulibai said:

There's no doubt in my mind the children will be heavily coached on what to say, with all sorts of fear and guilt tactics used. 

I agree - but if Josh's first instinct when the computer was seized was to say "hey did somebody download child pornography?", their coaching may backfire. I could see them saying <redacted> Or whatever.

Edited May 6, 2021 by hoipolloi
Redacted speculative comments

[HerNameIsBuffy]

52 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

A net worth of 3.5 million is a pittance for a family of that size. Who else besides Austin and Ben have income independent of the cult? I’m betting JB has more than that stashed away.

Is he bankrolling Jinger and family as well?  And isn't the youngest married (18 ugh) in Texas working for a father in law?  I've heard people talk about JD being self supporting, but doesn't he make his living flying Mommy and Daddy's plane?  His constable thing is unpaid IIRC.  

I have no idea what pastors make, but is Ben making enough that if they took a stand against JB and M they'd be able to afford adequate housing on their own?  

From what I remember, which isn't much, I think Josiah seemed fairly bright and could make his way in the world if he had to.  They just have one baby so while it won't be easy, now would be the time to do that.  Maybe connections for a job through his wife's family or something....he should be quietly networking.

Joe and Kendra are fucked if her family can't help get him something that pays enough for their kids.  The other newly married (failed politician) should try to get something outside of the family while they'd still only need a small apartment.

JB is on the hook for Josh's family for life, but he should be pushing the other ones toward independence for financial reasons alone.  "Remember what we said before about leave and cleave?  Well now we mean it, the umbrella can only cover so many and it's starting to smell under here so you guys need to find your own way."  JB can use that if he likes, on the house.

[HoneyBunny]

2 hours ago, feministxtian said:

@The Baby Humanist

…or even why I hate Colorado, I'd love to discuss with you. 

Say it isn’t so!  Did our record setting snowy spring seal that deal in your mind?

[Jackie3]

26 minutes ago, Antimony said:

There's also the fact that even though he's a trash pedophile, being separated suddenly and entirely from their father, especially when they're too young to understand why, would be psychically damaging in-of-itself. Explaining it to them is super complicated and wrought in any case, but I can also see this viewpoint. 

True. Imagine you are four years old and love your father. Imagine you are ten years old and think you have a normal family, like your cousins do. Then your father simply disappears. Grownups are evasive and sad, other kids say mysterious things you don't understand. That has got to be traumatizing and extremely puzzling.

Of course, I'm assuming there was no abuse here (which I really hope is true).

From this perspective, it might help the kids if they saw their father on supervised visits. Then they'd know he's not dead, still cares about them, etc. I doubt anyone is going to explain things to them either way, but it might help them to see their father is alive. You have to think what is best for the kids, not what will hurt Josh the most. (We actually don't know what will hurt Josh the most anyway.)

[libgirl2]

10 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

I've been reading that a lot of child molesters tend to be an immediate family member. I'm trying to figure out if Anna would've known to look out for signs of Josh doing anything? Couldn't basic fatherly duties look similar? If the children are young and the father is helping to clean them, I'm trying to think of how Anna could've known.

I doubt that he lifted a finger in any of the care of those kids. Maybe that is a plus. 

[Jackie3]

6 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Joe and Kendra are fucked if her family can't help get him something that pays enough for their kids. 

A healthy young man with no particular skill set? Lots of families have a father like this. They earn a living through unskilled labor. They aren't rich, but I'd hardly call them "fucked." I know plenty of families like this, who are perfectly happy, and have no idea that others think they are fucked.

[SnarkyLawyer]

48 minutes ago, Sullie06 said:

Yes! So much yes! Mental Health and Substance Treatment resources are so needed. At least in my area. Trying to get someone into treatment is like a special fete, and I'm not talking about specialized treatment like sex offender treatment, that's even harder to come. As well as safe adequate housing which is another concern in many areas. 

I would love to see more restorative and restitutional justice, in our country. And, for all of the naysayers who say it's too expensive, something tells me it would be a lot less expensive in the long run than the money we are currently paying private prison systems, and the continued toll on our society from the endless loop of recidivism and prison. 

[FunDieDumDum]

Oh, I’m so excited to finally share the story and pictures of my girl!! I’ve been waiting for one of these threads to pop up while I’m active.

Meet Vrbnik (pronounced like VERB-neek, but do your best to swallow the e in verb and you’ll come close ?). It’s Croatian, the name of the town nearest to where we found her - or she found us, is perhaps more accurate.

She was a full-fledged rescue. While on a camping trip last June, Hubby and I were on a bike ride on a very hot day, and stopped for a moment (in literally the middle of nowhere, I might add) to confirm which way to go next. Suddenly we heard this god-awful meow coming from some bushes nearby, like the sound of an adult cat in pain or some other desperate situation. Then out comes this little thing (first photo, taken the very same day). She was bouncing around us non-stop, seemed a little afraid of us but I guess desperate enough to plead with us for help anyway. She was all alone, no sign of mama, siblings or anyone else. We guess that she was about 8 weeks old.

We couldn’t do anything for her at that moment, we had water along but couldn’t get her to drink any, nor could we take her with us. We actually tried to put her in a bag on the back of one of our bikes, but of course that didn’t work...duh, what cat in his or her right mind would ever do such a thing?!? So we had to leave her there, which broke my heart because she SCREAMED as we pedaled away. ?

We finished the ride soon after, and after realizing there was a way to go back to the spot with our car we picked up some kitty food and did just that. She came running out immediately, and upon seeing the food laid into it like she hadn’t eaten in days...possibly she hadn’t! By then we knew we couldn’t leave her there, so I scooped her up and we took her back to our campsite. Side note: kittens and tents don’t really mix well, but I think the tent survived!

Hubby is allergic to cats so at that point we weren’t planning to keep her, but rather hoping to find a safe place for her...only to find out that the stray cat situation in Croatia is such that there really wasn’t a safe place, or rescue organization or anything. So she stayed overnight in our tent with us (the campsite had a roaming fox!) and hubby was okay allergy-wise...and she was just so damn sweet that by the next day we had her at the vet, first shots, microchipped, kitty passport, the whole deal. She’s been with us ever since.

Fast forward to last October, and what does kitty do? Break her leg somehow (we still have no idea how). On a weekend, of course. So, all day Sunday back and forth to the vet because she kept pulling a Houdini with her cast (the 3rd cast, 2nd photo, finally stuck). Changing casts once a week because she was growing fast, three weeks in the cast plus two more stuck inside and supposed to be “kept calm” (yeah right!). Not fun, but for the most part she was a real trooper.

And here she is today, all grown up into the sweetest ball of trouble you’ll ever meet. She refused to pose for the camera, so please excuse the weird photo with limbs in all directions!

 

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by hoipolloi
Putting multiple images behind spoiler tags

[HerNameIsBuffy]

45 minutes ago, Howl said:

These women (and the girls still at home) have been taught from their first breath that THEY HAVE NO AGENCY in the patriarchal system into which they were born.  Everything is set up to keep them thinking that, including strictly limiting what they see on the internet and TV, if they even watch TV or have internet access.  They are in a carefully structured, hermetically sealed IBLP bubble.  In addition, they are educated in a system that starts with an umbrella of authority and unquestioning adherence to Gothard's beliefs. 

I think everyone here believes this is true.

The question is when are they responsible for enabling and continuing the cycle with their own kids or younger siblings?  I don't blame the Duggar girls as children forced to be moms to their buddies for following the script, of course they would - they were kids.  I certainly hold Jana at 30 something accountable.  I have never bought into the whole "adult at 18 and you should be accountable for everything despite being a child a minute ago" but there has to be a line, a time where they are held accountable.  When is that?

If there is no line than clearly Michelle is off the hook as she had some serious mental or psychological issues which made her embrace this cult.  At what point is she responsible for crippling her children in so many ways?

I don't know that there is one answer to that, but when they are accountable should factor in when acknowledging their childhoods and training.

 

49 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

The only thing the court could have done was forbid Anna from letting him see the kids, but with no evidence of actual harm having happened to his kids, the court wasn't likely to go there.

No, the court could have required supervised visitation overseen by someone appointed by the court outside the family.  That doesn't infringe on his parental rights and he can still see his kids.  Even if they know nothing about the Duggars specifically they should be aware of how power dynamics often shake out in toxic families and either had Anna professionally vetted for fitness to supervise or use an impartial third party where there isn't a risk of deferring to Josh.

[justoneoftwo]

Yes the kids will be coached by the interviewers will have experience dealing with that. Obviously people flip through all the time but it's not as bad as someone who has not experienced it trying to determine what's going on

[feministxtian]

17 minutes ago, HoneyBunny said:

Say it isn’t so!  Did our record setting snowy spring seal that deal in your mind?

I don't do snow. The cold is literally painful for me. All the broken bones in my feet and ankles have been screaming. Not great for arthritis either...I need to go back to the warm. I'm hoping to be moved back soon...it all depends on a legal matter that should be settling soon. 

My DIL also drives me nuts. I found the baby playing ALONE in their bedroom yesterday...she's crawling and active now and my DIL just put her on the bedroom floor and walked away. 

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

16 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

You have to think what is best for the kids, not what will hurt Josh the most. (We actually don't know what will hurt Josh the most anyway.)

Is anyone who disagrees with the visitation thing saying it's because they want to punish Josh by keeping him from seeing his kids?  Personally I doubt very much that would be punishment for him ....I think that despite all the stress he is facing getting out from having to pretend to give a shit about his family is going to be a relief.  

I think taking away his internet will be torture for him, but the kids?  Nah.  

[luv2laugh]

Per the prosecution team, they argued he be detain by saying Josh has an attraction to kids. I am not happy that he's allowed to see the children before being proven not guilty.  Frequently, children aren't able to understand what is in their best interest and in my opinion, that means not seeing Josh.

IMO, at a minimum the child supervisor should've been a social worker appointed by the court. Josh is a dangerous man. Wives that aren't even fundamentalist miss signs that their husband is molesting the children. I'm not saying Josh has but if guilty- he is a risk to all minors.

Edited May 6, 2021 by luv2laugh

[violynn]

3 hours ago, Destiny said:

 

ETA: Maybe I should turn my avatar back to what it was before the inauguration. ?

Oh gods, no, please!  I didn't visit for most of 45's reign of terror because of your avatar!  ?

j/k