(CW: Child Sex Abuse) Josh & Anna 29: Left with Nothing but a Flip Phone Full of Shame

[Antimony]

7 minutes ago, Jacked said:

I get that bail is almost a given in just about every case. But why then was the term “presumptive detention” tossed around so often during the hearing? It seems like the court may have regarded the slimy bastard’s money & fame as more important than the safety of human beings who could be harmed as the result of Josh’s presence.

I think this has to do with the misconception (that I also shared) that federal cases use cash. They apparently don't. 

State and districts, do though, so in many cases, I think the people we've seen held on lower crimes are being held because they can't pay the bail (which is returned) or they can't even afford the 10% to a bondsman (which isn't refundable). There is a big push to remove the cash bail system -- people are getting presumptively detained because they can't pay, not because of the crime's nature.

In the oldy times, my grandparents spent a night in jail because they decided the price to get out (small town, so they just were moved to court the next day, tiny tiny place) wasn't worth paying. I'm sure it was like $50 or something, but in 50's money, that's big business.  

[OrchidBlossom]

5 hours ago, AprilQuilt said:

I was scrolling and just saw this quoted without the image, and thought it must be what we are calling JinJer nowadays.

If the void fits...

[Coconut Flan]

1 hour ago, PopRox said:

My ex was a criminal defense attorney, he got into it because it pays well and he likes to argue (beLIEVE me, he likes to argue!). Often, if he was representing someone for domestic abuse (or just a particularly difficult/combative client) he would charge a little higher fee; which he told me he called "asshole tax."

I'm not at all saying that was exactly ethical, but I also don't blame him ("my practice, my rules"). 

I am saying that if he represented the Smuggars, they would be paying through the nose on "asshole tax."

(Sorry. I didn't sleep hardly at all last night, so I hope this was coherent)

He isn't the only one.  The firm where my daughter works has a different name for it, but the same surcharge.  They even paid my daughter double for one particularly difficult client who had been through multiple attorneys. I can't imagine how much that person ended up paying the firm for being ridiculous. 

[formergothardite]

12 minutes ago, Cornelia13 said:

Exactly ... they’ll never admit their own fault or even Josh’s fault in his actions ... it’s why I think Anna can “excuse” his actions and still look at herself in the mirror. The belief that if your faith is strong enough, you can resist temptation for evil and sin. 
 

That’s why the Rebers think they can help Josh ... they can preach to him and strengthen his faith. There is no personal responsibility for actions... 

 

This is why I think Jim Bob will encourage Josh to not take a plea deal. If he admits guilt then who will want to listen to them give advice on parenting or how to live the most godly life ever? So much for lectures on discernment because a predator was in their home and they apparently didn’t notice. 
 

So I think they will keep up the idea this is fake news or a satanic attack, not because they truly believe it, but because their pride won’t let them admit who their son is or their part in this. 

[Marionette]

13 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

My mom had to live in NWA for years for work. She claims the Duggars are not as well known or as big a deal as you might think.

Agreed. While most NWA natives know of them and are familiar with the scandals (at least vaguely), there are enough people who have moved here from out of town who have no clue what the Duggars are about. I know several people who have moved here to NWA and just know they’re some semi-famous big family, but they really don’t give a shit about knowing any more about them. 

[mstee]

Can you imagine how awkward this must be for the host family (though I have zero sympathy for the vampire lacount). Especially the women. And who knows how long he’ll be there. JB and Michelle must’ve been scrambling through their phone book to find a friend who has no minor children and is willing to take on their douchebag son. 
 

I’ll throw in a pic of kittens that are maybe mine. We moved recently and our new house came with a mama cat and kittens living behind our garage. The plan was to trap the kittens and find them homes and trap the mama and spay and release her and then later that day she was hit by a car. Very sad. The kittens had all scattered and we only ended up finding three of the four or five and I am unfortunately allergic. We are attempting to keep one or two and investing in more air filters and special shampoo etc. A friend is taking the third. Fingers crossed because they are very cute. I’m a dog person at heart but my husband loves cats. 

[Sullie06]

4 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

One thing that stands out to me is that Josh is not accused of a crime of impulsivity, like some attempted murder charges. Although installing Linux takes about a half hour, it takes much more time to learn how to do so, and then do it the first time. (I am always astonished about how short a time it takes to actually install Linux from media, as opposed to how long it takes to restore all my backed up files and ending up with the previous status quo.) 

Very true and that's the thing with Sexual Offenders, they are often very calculated. They don't act on impulse, they go to great lengths to hide their tracks and movements. 

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, Cam said:

Are any of the female Duggar siblings capable of seeing the misogyny of JB’s actions towards Jill vs Josh? He practically disowns Jill because she dares to live her life according to how she as an adult woman wants to live it rather than follow patriarchal bullcrap set forth by her father. In other words, JB is pissed he no longer controls her. Yet there he is handholdng Josh, making sure he gets the supervision required to make bail and dropping bucketloads of cash on pricey lawyer guy. Jill commits no crime but is somewhat shunned; Josh is accused of some of the most heinous of crimes and JB circles the wagons around him. 

While not all the Sibs may turn away from Josh, some will, even if they don’t publicly announce it. There will be a divide among them. Some will be on the fence. As they watch the ones pulling away, it may sway them to follow eventually. Those who turn away will have to figure out how to make a go of life without JB’s financial support. They all gotta work through this shit on their own. 

I’m not sure how the sisters with kids can continue to forge much of a relationship with Anna. Josh has brought Anna so far down. Sadly, she may simply be addicted now to chaos in her life; without it, her life may feel dull and meaningless. Standin’ by her man gives her purpose. 

This is what I wonder about with regards to the other adult Duggars who are still in the fold. How can they not look at JB and his neck, Michelle, and their treatment of Jill vs their absolute $upport of Josh and not think “ my dad and mom are bogus Christians? Everything they crammed down our throats has been nothing but words to control us and prevent us from leading our own lives and making our own decisions.” And the big one, “my parents would do anything to keep the money flowing.” 
A true Christian, man of God, Bible believer would make sure that Josh admitted and atoned for his sins/transgressions. How can these cleansed by the blood of JC folks not see this?

Also, I keep waiting for something financial to be uncovered. Recently, Anna stated that Josh was a good provider. If that was indeed true, where was the money coming from? I can’t see JB being so generous if his reputation and money stream weren’t at stake.

Edited May 6, 2021 by SassyPants

[AprilQuilt]

1 hour ago, Cam said:

Are any of the female Duggar siblings capable of seeing the misogyny of JB’s actions towards Jill vs Josh? He practically disowns Jill because she dares to live her life according to how she as an adult woman wants to live it rather than follow patriarchal bullcrap set forth by her father. In other words, JB is pissed he no longer controls her. Yet there he is handholdng Josh, making sure he gets the supervision required to make bail and dropping bucketloads of cash on pricey lawyer guy. Jill commits no crime but is somewhat shunned; Josh is accused of some of the most heinous of crimes and JB circles the wagons around him. 

It takes a huge amount of work to escape an abusive relationship, and that's basically what the girls are in with their own family/community. It's a situation of gaslighting/coercive control: they are so used to assuming everything is their fault that they were probably just relieved that JB was coming after Jill and not them. I don't want to give them all a free pass because they are adults and absolutely responsible for their actions, but many of them are very likely still sold on JB's logic. Jill had Derick to reflect the situation back to her and to support her in figuring out that maybe 2+2 isn't 5, but if everyone around you acts like Jill deserved what she got and poor persecuted Josh didn't, it must be nigh on impossible to take the opposite stand.

I do think things are different from the last time round, and I agree with you that the kidults will distance themselves to a greater or lesser extent: like Derick said on Twitter, everyone's situation is different, so if and when they leave, and the manner in which it happens, will be different every time. It helps that the married kidults are out in the world, with social media and perhaps friends with whom they did not grow up: they are exposed even a little to worldviews unlike their own. Even if it's just your basic conservative Christianity. The more they see the more their paradigm might shift. If nothing else, Jill and Derick have modelled that leaving is possible. Whether others follow that model or find another, remains to be seen. For some this may well be a damascene moment: for others the start of a slow, brick-by-brick disassembly of their worldview, which might take years to manifest. Others might well double down. I don't see Jessa the diplomat breaking cover with some kind of tell-all, for example, she stays where she is comfortable. She might become more mainstream but she won't explicitly denounce anything her parents did. But I'm here to be proved wrong.

[CosmicStardust]

15 hours ago, Tatar-tot said:

He’ll Josh is living his dream - No kids to deal with - Sweetheart visits from Anna - Mrs Reaver waiting on him with a hot breakfast, snacks and amazing Midwest dinners.  

Of course because that’s what Josh is used to. Everybody waiting on him hand and foot. The golden son.  ? everybody caters to him and enables him.

[MrsFoxx]

2 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

This is what I wonder about with regards to the other adult Duggars who are still in the fold. How can they not look at JB and his neck, Michelle, and their treatment of Jill vs their absolute $upport of Josh and not think “ my dad and mom are bogus Christians? Everything they crammed down our throats has been nothing but words to control us and prevent us from leading our own lives and making our own decisions.” And the big one, “my parents would do anything to keep the money flowing.” 
A true Christian, man of God, Bible believer would make sure that Josh admitted and atoned for his sins/transgressions. How can these cleansed by the blood of JC folks not see this?

That's the thing about toxic family systems, though. You are often kept SO busy keeping the toxic/narcissistic leader (*COUGH*JB*COUGH*) happy that you don't have time to notice how the others are treated. Read up on family structures with a narcissistic parent. 

The remaining kids are the flying monkeys. Jill is the scapegoat. Jessa/Josh are likely taking turns as the golden child. 

[CuttySark]

4 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

How can these cleansed by the blood of JC folks not see this?

I was reading too fast and read this as 'cleansed by the blood of JB.' That's a bit far even for them! ?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Recently, Anna stated that Josh was a good provider.

I think that was just Annaspeak for "My awesome husband was so smart to be born into a family where his Dad makes TV money."  

Honestly, given the relative poverty in which Anna grew up I am sure she does see Josh as being a good provider no matter where the money comes from because materially her kids have more than she had.  She's not that deep and isn't bothered if what she's saying is true or not in general.

[SnarkyLawyer]

24 minutes ago, Sullie06 said:

Unfortunately a lot of sex offenders are on Probation. They usually get 10 years felony Probation, have to register as sex offenders, cannot have access to electronics, etc. The push to keep people out of incarceration is stronger than ever. We have a teenager on Probation right now for Attempted Murder. 

I'm not necessarily against this philosophy, except that we don't provide adequate resources, on the outside, to rehabilitate, or become more functioning members of society. If we're going to adopt the philosophy that jail isn't the best solution, we need to address the underlying issues that moved people in that direction, in the 1st place.

[Alisamer]

33 minutes ago, MrsFoxx said:

HOW DID I NOT KNOW THAT THE COP WHO GAVE JOSH A TALKING TO BACK IN THE DAY ALSO WAS ARRESTED ON CP CHARGES?!

*ahem* Carry on. 

I knew this and in the back of my mind wonder what was IN that "talking to". 

I hope it wasn't "Don't actually touch kids, you pervert! Just look at some pictures, that's good enough for me. But keep it secret!!!"

[NoKidsAndCounting]

4 minutes ago, CuttySark said:

I was reading too fast and read this as 'cleansed by the blood of JB.' That's a bit far even for them! ?

Thank you for this!  Your comment is the only thing that has made me laugh about the Duggars in a while.  At this point, I think the blood of JB is so soiled, there's no cleansing left to be done.

[FunFunFundie]

I don't have a good sense of how much money they make but the Internet is telling me that JB has an estimated net worth of 3.5 million dollars. Is that even close to possibly correct? I don't know if they assume that the kids have their own net worths when, in fact, they are all still his property in his mind. 

If his net worth is 3.5 million and this sets him back $500,000 to a million in lawyer fees (is that reasonable?), this is going to be a huge hit. If TLC pulls the plug (please please), that leaves him with 2.5-3 million dollars and a ton of non-working, non-capable-of-working people to pay for. Some of them are independent, but some aren't. 

I thought they had a lot, lot more money than that.

[SassyPants]

3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I think that was just Annaspeak for "My awesome husband was so smart to be born into a family where his Dad makes TV money."  

Honestly, given the relative poverty in which Anna grew up I am sure she does see Josh as being a good provider no matter where the money comes from because materially her kids have more than she had.  She's not that deep and isn't bothered if what she's saying is true or not in general.

Anna’s relative upbringing is likely another reason they targeted her for Josh.

I wonder how JB would have responded if the perp here was named Ben or Jeremy? Would JB be throwing money at it (especially if they had had known history like Josh)? Would he get his girls out? 

[AprilQuilt]

17 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

Anna's not accused of anything and I can't see a court ordering her to do anything relative to her own mental state.  I think the assumption is that she's their mother and he isn't going to harm his own children with their mom in the room.  Maybe it's not a wise assumption to make given the headship shit, but that's almost certainly where the judge is coming from.  And let's face it, we know the Duggars waaayyy better than the judge does.

I did note that the court wants the M kids to undergo forensic examinations, which I believe includes medical exams.  I read somewhere that the Duggars are objecting to this.  

My reservation would actually be whether she would be in the room. If he has told her that he's not guilty, the CSA images are someone else's, no idea how they got there, etc etc etc - she might believe him. I bet she wants to believe him. And she might agree to comply with the directives whilst privately having no intention of doing anything of the sort. I feel she could easily be talked down from supervising her husband with their kids. He could make her feel stupid very easily, I suspect. She would feel that it was her duty to him to trust him.

(I am not saying he would or has abused any of the Ms. But I'm 99% certain that if she believes he's innocent, she'll feel that court order is unnecessary and that 'common sense' is enough)

[nelliebelle1197]

9 minutes ago, MrsFoxx said:

That's the thing about toxic family systems, though. You are often kept SO busy keeping the toxic/narcissistic leader (*COUGH*JB*COUGH*) happy that you don't have time to notice how the others are treated. Read up on family structures with a narcissistic parent. 

The remaining kids are the flying monkeys. Jill is the scapegoat. Jessa/Josh are likely taking turns as the golden child. 

Toxic family systems - I really like that phrase.

[SassyPants]

7 minutes ago, FunFunFundie said:

I don't have a good sense of how much money they make but the Internet is telling me that JB has an estimated net worth of 3.5 million dollars. Is that even close to possibly correct? I don't know if they assume that the kids have their own net worths when, in fact, they are all still his property in his mind. 

If his net worth is 3.5 million and this sets him back $500,000 to a million in lawyer fees (is that reasonable?), this is going to be a huge hit. If TLC pulls the plug (please please), that leaves him with 2.5-3 million dollars and a ton of non-working, non-capable-of-working people to pay for. Some of them are independent, but some aren't. 

I thought they had a lot, lot more money than that.

A net worth of 3.5 million is a pittance for a family of that size. Who else besides Austin and Ben have income independent of the cult? I’m betting JB has more than that stashed away.

Edited May 6, 2021 by SassyPants

[Pecansforeveryone]

@FunFunFundie, I wouldn't be suprised if that amount in cash is "all" JB has. Other posters have mentioned that most of JBs worth is tied up in real estate. I have never believed they were making multi-millions off of book deals or a smaller channel like TLC. Enough to be comfortable but not millionaires many times over. Even at the height of TLC fame, they werent "A-list" reality stars like Duck Dynasty who managed to put themselves on crappy merchandise. 

[AprilQuilt]

5 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I knew this and in the back of my mind wonder what was IN that "talking to". 

I hope it wasn't "Don't actually touch kids, you pervert! Just look at some pictures, that's good enough for me. But keep it secret!!!"

this, and I doubt he figured out how to do this whole partitioning/Linux stuff all by himself. Even people who have Tor browser to pirate movies or buy drugs or whatever don't just stumble upon it by themselves, someone tells them about it. I'm sure Josh was looking for get-rounds re Covenant Eyes etc but I am sure he was directed to this solution, perhaps even by people he knew in person.

[luv2laugh]

60 minutes did a documentary with some of the victims of the CSA material that Josh downloaded. It's very traumatic. This is a lot to take in and process.  The family members that support Josh should be forced to watch the 60 min documentary. Josh is a very dangerous man.

Edited May 6, 2021 by luv2laugh

[libgirl2]

4 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

A net worth of 3.5 million is a pittance for a family of that size. Who else besides Austin and Ben have income independent of the cult? I’m betting JB has more than that stashed away.

I don't think Ben is earning money on his own. I would change it to Austin and Derrick.