Bontragers/Bowers/Helferich 9: Oh Nos! Chelsey Married a Maxwell!

[Lgirlrocks]

So I’m going to say this, as a person who grew up in a conservative Christian household we believed in praying for miracles. I am now an atheist. My thought process based on how I was brought up is this. If God already knows what the outcome is going to be then praying doesn’t really change the outcome. Unless Christians believe that they can change gods mind which only happened one time in the Bible then if the plan for the miracle isn’t to happen then praying and it doesn’t happen it’s just gonna make you feel bad. Or feel like you’re not a good enough Christian. Which is why I really and truly hope that all the people praying for this miracle realize that if it doesn’t happen that there’s nothing wrong with their faith,0 or themselves. It just means that it wasn’t in the cards for it to happen.

[fundiefan]

I have always believed -and still believe - that praying is for the one praying, no one else. 

If there is a god who is determining someone's life, he/she/it already knows what is going on, knows the person is loved; allowed / caused that person to get sick/be born early/have an accident;  knows lives will be altered, knows it's not "fair" - that whole omniscience, omnipresence, & omnibenevolence thing human beings assign to their deities - then praying will have no affect. 

Also, if "it's god's will" - which is fundie standard for explaining away not getting what they want - praying to said god is attempting to thwart his/her/its will, which to me would mean there is no all mighty-ness about him/her/it. If prayers from mere humans can thwart a god's plan, that god is not all knowing or all powerful, is wishy washy, has favorites & chooses to literally care for one human being over another. 

Two sets of parents in the NICU; one set, good little kristshuns, the other, not interested in religion. The babies are in the same shape - born at same gestation, same breathing issues, same body temperature issues, same alertness - basically, "equal". If there is anyone who believes the baby of the good kristshun parents will be saved because of prayers then you are also choosing to say the baby whose parents didn't pray is not worth saving, thus his/her life didn't matter.

Which puts a giant ass hole in the anti-abortion claims at being pro-life. (Which everyone with a brain knows they are not). And that is a whole different ball o' wax to rant about. 

If praying makes you feel like you are doing something in a situation where you have no control, more power to you and I hope it brings you peace. But I can't see how anyone could think it actually accomplishes anything; that some god is sitting there choosing which prayers to answer and which ones weren't strong enough/enough people weren't asking for the same thing so nah, not gonna' grant that one today. Next. 

[browngrl]

On occasion I have people ask if they can pray for me. I will usually say that I am grateful for their prayers. This is not true.  I'm an atheist but allowing someone to pray for me is an effortless way for me to make them feel better. 

 

[nelliebelle1197]

On 7/16/2021 at 1:32 PM, usedbicycle said:

Being born 2.5 months early is very, very early. Babies put on 65% of their weight AFTER 30 weeks. My heart goes out to Chelsy because seeing your baby fight for their life in NICU with two other babies at home sounds like torture. At least the Maxwells know how to rally and offer support in times of crisis... I hope little Madeline makes it.

Since mine was born at 26 weeks, I always wonder why people get so up in arms at 30 or 32 weeks - anything past 30, you know? But this comment is a good reality check for me! Thanks!

[CaptainFunderpants]

Apparently all of our heathen vibes did something, because Madeline has had all tubes removed and is now EBF!

No, the vibes did nothing, Chelsy is simply very blessed to be under the care of doctors that she doesn't trust for anything outside of keeping her very premature daughter alive. Because if a 30-weeker can be kept alive, there's no way doctors could have any idea about simple things like vaccine efficacy.

Do we know if Steve and Teri have been vaccinated and therefore if Chelsy and John are likely to be? I know the older Maxwells were social distancing and I believe masking, so... Maybe things aren't as bleak as they might otherwise be?

[MomJeans]

I would guess that the Steve and Terri are vaccinated, because they are not anti-doctor, and Steve's heart issue really scared the crap out of him a few years ago.  Without a doubt his cardiologist would have recommended to get vaccinated. 

As for their children, it's probably a mixed bag.  I really, really hope Anna Marie and her husband have been vaccinated.

Chelsy's parents do not believe there is a pandemic. (Find the video of Allison's wedding).  Marlin thinks covid is a giant fake lie.  But in fairness to her, Chelsy was pregnant before her age group could be vaccinated, and that could cause some vaccine hesitancy, even if your father isn't a Trump loving conspiracy theorist.   (I'm not supporting or not supporting vaccination during pregnancy, just saying it's likely complicated).  So I would be surprised if Chelsy was vaccinated. As for John, I could see it go either way. 

I'm really am glad Madeline is doing better.  I'm grateful for science!! And if I prayed, it would be for universal healthcare!!

Edited July 19, 2021 by MomJeans
typo

[Ozlsn]

12 hours ago, Lgirlrocks said:

So I’m going to say this, as a person who grew up in a conservative Christian household we believed in praying for miracles. I am now an atheist. My thought process based on how I was brought up is this. If God already knows what the outcome is going to be then praying doesn’t really change the outcome. Unless Christians believe that they can change gods mind which only happened one time in the Bible then if the plan for the miracle isn’t to happen then praying and it doesn’t happen it’s just gonna make you feel bad. Or feel like you’re not a good enough Christian. Which is why I really and truly hope that all the people praying for this miracle realize that if it doesn’t happen that there’s nothing wrong with their faith,0 or themselves. It just means that it wasn’t in the cards for it to happen.

I had several friends (and friends of friends) ask if they could pray for my son when he was born - I always asked them to pray for "the best possible outcome", because we honestly didn't know what outcomes were possible. 

9 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Since mine was born at 26 weeks, I always wonder why people get so up in arms at 30 or 32 weeks - anything past 30, you know? But this comment is a good reality check for me! Thanks!

I totally get where you're coming from... it took me ages to get past "but there's a 3 at the front!" and "but they're over a kilo!" because I was so fixated on getting to those milestones and not seeing that just because you started there didn't mean the path was smooth. I have friends whose 24 weeker twins had the most straightforward NICU experience (get bigger, progress through ventilation stages, go home at term) and friends whose 30 weeker's path was the most tortuous journey involving respiratory issues, sepsis and a 6 month NICU stay. (My own child preferred his cliff edge goat track in pitch black over the easy well lit NICU superhighway path which would have gotten him home sooner, sigh. But he came home, and nothing else mattered.)  

[nelliebelle1197]

13 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

I had several friends (and friends of friends) ask if they could pray for my son when he was born - I always asked them to pray for "the best possible outcome", because we honestly didn't know what outcomes were possible. 

I totally get where you're coming from... it took me ages to get past "but there's a 3 at the front!" and "but they're over a kilo!" because I was so fixated on getting to those milestones and not seeing that just because you started there didn't mean the path was smooth. I have friends whose 24 weeker twins had the most straightforward NICU experience (get bigger, progress through ventilation stages, go home at term) and friends whose 30 weeker's path was the most tortuous journey involving respiratory issues, sepsis and a 6 month NICU stay. (My own child preferred his cliff edge goat track in pitch black over the easy well lit NICU superhighway path which would have gotten him home sooner, sigh. But he came home, and nothing else mattered.)  

Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? Before I had a 1.8 pounder, I thought even a couple weeks early was a trauma! My first was six weeks early but HUGE - already over six pounds and growing so fast my body was like hells no. He spent no time in NICU and was perfect event at 34 weeks! But I still kept expecting trauma and after effects but nothing. He is now just barely 14 and 6 feet tall and still growing. And perfectly healthy!

Edited July 19, 2021 by nelliebelle1197

[ElizaB]

On 7/18/2021 at 9:57 PM, CaptainFunderpants said:

 

Do we know if Steve and Teri have been vaccinated and therefore if Chelsy and John are likely to be? I know the older Maxwells were social distancing and I believe masking, so... Maybe things aren't as bleak as they might otherwise be?

While we don't know if they all have gotten the vaccine we do know that Gigi did. They are so careful about what they post I don't imagine they would mention her being vaccinated if they were completely against it. 

[neurogirl]

It is true there are varying levels of prematurity but having a baby born early (even with a 3-) in front can still be scary. Granted this was nearly 30 years ago, but my mom had a spontaneous placental abruption at 32 weeks with me - I spent two months in the NICU, had breathing problems, the doctors were concerned I had cerebral palsy...I'm fine now except for asthma, but it was still a meaningful life event for my parents even though I was "only" two months early. 

Of course, we also know absolute horror stories about extended family members with 24-26 weekers. So I guess what I'm saying is even if 23-26 weeks is the worst case scenario, later prematurity is still not a blase thing (and can still have effects).

[Green bean satan]

On 6/16/2021 at 2:39 PM, theologygeek said:

I'm not sure why, but I did read some time ago that mothers are doing it.  It comes from a practice that European women did long ago.  Someone comes in to take care of the mother, or the husband does it, and the woman rests.  It sounds lovely, but no one talks about the blood clot that can happen if the woman is in bed for too long.  

It’s from the time that there was no medical care and the more common complications of tearing and blood loss were so much more prevalent was that EVERY WOMAN IN THE WORLD who could afford to, did that, not just European women (le sigh). Peasant women were back to work the next day…….Of course it wasn’t a man who took care of a woman after childbirth. As you yourself “think” that this was a practice from “long ago”, it really really really wouldn’t make sense now would it. Given the fact that hierarchical roles between men and women wouldn’t allow that in the “ long ago” time in evil Black Death horrible monarchistic Europe………

As for taking rest after childbirth…..you can PERFECTLY well stay in bed for ten days and not get a blood clot. You just go to the bathroom, take showers, change your clothes etc. and you’ll be just fine.

The naked in bed with baby for ten days is probably what the call a lotus birth, where the placenta stays attached to the baby until the umbilical cord falls off naturally. You have to wash and salt the placenta and keep it in a bag with you and baby in the bed. Every time you want to leave the bed you must take baby and placenta with you. This discourages mothers from doing too much after birth and encourages bonding. 

[Smash!]

I met this lovely cat during vacation ? She would sit there for hours monitoring her territory ?

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, Smash! said:

I met this lovely cat during vacation ? She would sit there for hours monitoring her territory ?

 

That kitty reminds me of our “first date kitty.” When my husband and I were on a first date, there was a tense moment of possibly about to kiss for the first time. I was nervous. We were on an outdoor patio of a bar when an orange and white kitty popped up to say hello. Thankfully he broke the tension because we both love cats. We never saw him again. I imagine he just roams the earth to put people on first dates at ease ?

[Smash!]

15 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Thankfully he broke the tension because we both love cats. We never saw him again. I imagine he just roams the earth to put people on first dates at ease ?

Wondering how many relationships this kitty made happen? ?

I like your imagination of cats roaming the earth and bringing people together. So much better than Cupido, the angel with the arrow ?

 

[AmazonGrace]

On 7/18/2021 at 8:21 PM, browngrl said:

On occasion I have people ask if they can pray for me. I will usually say that I am grateful for their prayers. This is not true.  I'm an atheist but allowing someone to pray for me is an effortless way for me to make them feel better. 

 

Nice of them to ask though... assuming for the sake of the argument  that prayers could be effective, then the people who pray for you without your consent would be the worst kind of manipulative, trying to bend your life into what they think is best for you. 

At least If the prayer is anything more specific than "Dear Lord, may @browngrl  live a fulfilling life and please let some good things happen to her amen"

[Black Aliss]

On 7/18/2021 at 10:21 AM, browngrl said:

On occasion I have people ask if they can pray for me. I will usually say that I am grateful for their prayers. This is not true.  I'm an atheist but allowing someone to pray for me is an effortless way for me to make them feel better. 

 

This. And it does no harm. I've mentioned before that when my husband was diagnosed with Stage IV cancer, everything we read said he had another 18-24 months. A colleague who is a Christian asked if I minded if she prayed for my husband and me. I said sure, like browngrl, figuring it would give her some comfort. It's been 5 years since that diagnosis with no recurrence yet, so clearly the prayers didn't cause harm to anyone.

[Nothing if not critical]

7 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

so clearly the prayers didn't cause harm to anyone.

Yup. To me, prayers are like homeopathic remedies. From a logical standpoint, they can’t possibly work, but by the same logic, they also can’t hurt - unless you rely exclusively on them! As long as people still get proper medical attention, prayers are fine.

[Queen Of Hearts]

5 hours ago, Nothing if not critical said:

Yup. To me, prayers are like homeopathic remedies. From a logical standpoint, they can’t possibly work, but by the same logic, they also can’t hurt - unless you rely exclusively on them! As long as people still get proper medical attention, prayers are fine.

Personally, I have never understood why someone would be opposed to being prayed for.  Regardless of the faith, if the prayer is for good I would think it would be comforting to know someone cares about you.  At least, that is how I have always felt when people of differing faiths than my own have offered me prayers.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

9 hours ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

Personally, I have never understood why someone would be opposed to being prayed for.  Regardless of the faith, if the prayer is for good I would think it would be comforting to know someone cares about you.  At least, that is how I have always felt when people of differing faiths than my own have offered me prayers.

It depends on how it is offered. Sometimes people pray that you will convert or change your mind about something and then it comes off mean. Also some people see it as disrespectful of their beliefs, especially if the person offering to pray has shown intolerance or disrespect towards the person who they want to pray for.

I wouldn't mind the Bontragers praying for a sick friend of mine, but I would be annoyed if they prayed for me to convert or find a spouse.

[anachronistic]

I’m an atheist and I really dislike being prayed for. I always have. But this changed recently. I always disliked it because many times when I told people about my autism or about stuff going on in my life, they would say they’d pray for me, unasked. I don’t want their prayers, though, because prayers do nothing for me. It is hard work and persistence and white, raised upper-middle-class, privilege on my part that has gotten me to where I am today, and it is also government programs that help me. Government programs like Medicare and housing enable me to live my life, and those programs are in existence not because people prayed for them but because they voted in politicians who made them happen, because people worked on campaigns, because cities were welcoming to people of all income levels. Prayer didn’t give me my wonderful therapist. It was they themselves deciding to take on people with public insurance, despite it paying significantly less than private insurance. Prayer gives the praying people something to feel good about doing but it doesn’t actually benefit me in much of my life. So I always tell people, don’t pray, vote!

However, in the last few months, my pain levels have gotten so bad that I welcome any prayer, any wackadoodle crystal salt healing rituals, anything. Because nothing is helping. Pain fills my days, prevents me from living, leaves me just in survival mode. I’m hopeful that I will be able to get a round of steroid shots next month but even those only give me a few weeks of relief. I’m in this weird limbo of existence that I hide really, really well and I hate it. So if someone wants to pray for my pain, well, it’ll make them feel better, and I can’t do that. And if there’s a one in a zillion chance that it will make my bursitis, tendinitis, and fibromyalgia just a tiny bit less, I’ll take it.

But please vote too. 

[ElizaB]

I think it is also important to remember that for someone who is a strong believer in their mind their prayers are one of the most powerful things they can offer you. It is them giving something they value greatly so I feel like being thought of in this way is a huge compliment. 

It would be like if you had a friend who grows award winning cherries and puts everything they have into growing these cherries. One day when you are sick so they spend a good chunk of time making you a cherry pie using their cherries that they have invested so much into. Now, perhaps you don't care for cherry pie but they bring it anyway. You would still be incredibly touched that they take the most important thing they have and give it to you. Now perhaps the pie is wasted on you, but the fact that a friend cares about you so much is touching. 

[deborahlynn1979]

Allison did a few stories on her Instagram this evening. The kitchen she’s in definitely looks different from the one at her in-laws’ house. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

9 hours ago, deborahlynn1979 said:

Allison did a few stories on her Instagram this evening. The kitchen she’s in definitely looks different from the one at her in-laws’ house. 

I agree. For some reason she’s doing her videos in black and white. So that makes it a little harder. I wonder if she’s trying to hide an ugly color scheme with the black and white. She never hid the ugly red walls in the old house though. 

[Tatar-tot]

On 7/18/2021 at 11:39 PM, MomJeans said:

I would guess that the Steve and Terri are vaccinated, because they are not anti-doctor, and Steve's heart issue really scared the crap out of him a few years ago.  Without a doubt his cardiologist would have recommended to get vaccinated. 

As for their children, it's probably a mixed bag.  I really, really hope Anna Marie and her husband have been vaccinated.

Chelsy's parents do not believe there is a pandemic. (Find the video of Allison's wedding).  Marlin thinks covid is a giant fake lie.  But in fairness to her, Chelsy was pregnant before her age group could be vaccinated, and that could cause some vaccine hesitancy, even if your father isn't a Trump loving conspiracy theorist.   (I'm not supporting or not supporting vaccination during pregnancy, just saying it's likely complicated).  So I would be surprised if Chelsy was vaccinated. As for John, I could see it go either way. 

I'm really am glad Madeline is doing better.  I'm grateful for science!! And if I prayed, it would be for universal healthcare!!

I would be shocked if the hospital would let John in if he was not vaccinated.

[Themanda Duggar]

6 hours ago, Tatar-tot said:

I would be shocked if the hospital would let John in if he was not vaccinated.

Unfortunately, the hospitals in my state are not allowed to ask, apparently.  That could be the case where they are, too.