Jinjer 56: Oh My Stars It's a Reality Show Book! How Surprising - Not

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, livinginthelight said:

I have a couple of thoughts on Calvinism, fwiw to anyone. I think the distinction between Calvinism and Arminianism is way overblown and overemphasized, primarily by people outside of either faith tradition. I say this a a former member of the Lutheran Church (Arminian) and a current member (and elder) of the Presbyterian Church USA, which is rooted in Calvinism.

In theory, I can see where the idea of predestination (a tenet of Calvinism) comes from. None of us can earn our way into heaven- it is a free gift, solely from God and not from our own works. And I 100% agree with this. Calvinists would also say that our "choosing" God cannot therefore be initiated by us, because that would be our own "works" - the apparent choice must be in response to a call from God.

This is where the theological rabbit hole starts, and most churches and Christians kind of gloss over everything because to think about it too deeply makes peoples' heads explode. Because in practice, most of us ALSO believe in free choice. To not have free choice would be suggesting that we are pre-programmed robots, which pretty much no one believes.

My take on it? God loves everyone and calls everyone, and people get a choice whether to respond to that call. Which sounds more Arminian even though I'm a Calvinist Presbyterian. I have NEVER heard a sermon on the topic and most everyone I've talked to about it agrees that it's a tough one to understand and our time is better spent loving others and serving our Lord.

I guess what I'm saying is, we talk a lot on this board about Calvinists vs Arminians, but IMO we are way over-emphasizing a rather blurred distinction.

Which is also why I don't think the Calvinist-Arminian thing was JB's problem with Jeremy. I think it was 100% a control issue.

 

 

Ugh...the control issue cloaked in the Jesus banner. Lord I despise that!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 hours ago, meep said:

How could Jinger love Jeremy when they had barely spent time together? She had a crush...she is "allowed" to call it "love" at that point because they weren't dating and she knew he was serious about marriage. But at the end of the day, it was a crush. You can't love a man after you've spent 2, maybe 3, mega-family dinners with him. 

When you don't understand what actual healthy (romantic) love is it's easy to mistake infatuation for real love.  Idk about Jinger, but it was something I struggled with back in the day and didn't realize it for many years.  You feel something, it's similar to what other people call love, so love it is.  

[Idlewild]

I think with Jinger it was all about the ritual of being in a relationship- she had seen her sisters get married and it accorded attention and privileges in a home where both were in short supply. So she turned into the simpering woman, sleeping with his soccer top over her pillow (as Jill and Jessa had done), calling him Babe constantly because that’s how women with a boyfriend behave (she thinks), not having to do as many chores as she’s now ‘special’. It’s false and emotionally stunted.

So now she’s a grown up with no idea what she’s supposed to think- so she takes on Jeremy’s thoughts and ideas. I’m sure off camera she does have friends but they will be Jeremy approved- the sort of people they should get to know to move in the right circles. It’s quite depressing.

[theotherelise]

I just left an Acts29 church which was low key Calvinist. It did get talked about. I pushed back regularly. One facet of Jeremy's personality that people find grating is that smug superiority. That is so very typical for the popular calvinists of the moment (McArthur, Piper, DeYoung, all of The Gospel Coalition, Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, etc). I think some of that superiority comes from the fact that they do believe they are better than everyone because they were elected/predestined/chosen and also they were born male. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

5 hours ago, meep said:

You can't love a man after you've spent 2, maybe 3, mega-family dinners with him.

It was more time than that. The total was a weeklong ATI conference (suggested by Jessa and Ben as an opportunity for Jeremy to scope out the Duggar sisters); a visit by Jeremy to Jessa and Ben (coinciding with Joshgate 1); another short visit for Spurgeon’s baby shower, including a conversation alone at the airport, because Jinger also happened to be traveling afterwards; a weeklong mission trip (during which Jeremy asked for permission to get to know Jinger, and Jim Bob informed him that he would be getting to know Jeremy first); a short visit by Jeremy to the Duggars (after which Jim Bob pestered him about theological differences for almost five months); and the ATI conference where they talked about the theological differences and then Jeremy told Jinger he loved her. Then he went to Arkansas and they filmed the courtprosal for TLC, and they spent the summer of 2016 courting.

I’m wondering what discussion was had about birth control. Jeremy says, “We needed to slow down and take a year to get to know each other as husband and wife before we had kids.” Jinger told him that she was ready a couple of months after they moved from the apartment to the house, and they found out they were expecting Felicity during a trip to celebrate their first anniversary. I’ve always had the impression that the Duggars cared a lot more about not using birth control than they do about theology. Did Jeremy just sign off on no abortions or birth control pills, and not mention that he intended to use condoms for a while?

[Coconut Flan]

18 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Did Jeremy just sign off on no abortions or birth control pills, and not mention that he intended to use condoms for a while?

That's what I've always thought.  Jim Bob left a door open and Jeremy just grinned and went OK then.  

[fundiefan]

I looked up the video I'd sort of remembered seeing and yeah, I guess they all got the questionnaire. But, Ben & Derick got it after they were already approved to "court". Jeremy got it before approval to "court" was given. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PZjCPtJnNQ

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by fundiefan

[Tangy Bee]

Wait,  a Duggar actually admitted to waiting to become pregnant?!? I'm still waiting for someone to kiss before marriage! But seriously, I think that was Jeremy's idea to wait. That thought probably never crossed Jinger's mind. Her sisters definitely did not wait.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Tangy Bee

[JuanitaBanana]

2 hours ago, Tangy Bee said:

Wait,  a Duggar actually admitted to waiting to become pregnant?!? I'm still waiting for someone to kiss before marriage! But seriously, I think that was Jeremy's idea to wait. That thought probably never crossed Jinger's mind. Her sisters definitely did not wait.

Last year Jill and Derick said that they use condoms. They obviously didn't wait when they were newlyweds but they are waiting to add more children to their family. 

[Jigsaw3]

It's great that they put it out there in black and white that they waited. A Duggar daughter admitting to active family planning inspires her sisters and brothers to think about it for themselves and to follow a different model than that endorsed by JB and Michelle. We've known for a while that Jill and Derick have been preventing, but Jinger is still (theoretically) in the fold and this is a great example for her siblings. It shows them that they can make different choices with their spouses for their own family units.

Fingers crossed some of the other Duggars make the same choice. Even if they don't discuss it publicly, I hope they talk about it amongst themselves and realize that they too can control their family size and spacing.

 

[SassyPants]

This whole idea of parents dictating birth control use or not, family size, child spacing or  if couples wait a bit to procreate is just another example of the unhealthy relationship boundaries and sexual interests that exist in the Duggar family.

[RainbowSky]

7 hours ago, theotherelise said:

I just left an Acts29 church which was low key Calvinist. It did get talked about. I pushed back regularly. One facet of Jeremy's personality that people find grating is that smug superiority. That is so very typical for the popular calvinists of the moment (McArthur, Piper, DeYoung, all of The Gospel Coalition, Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, etc). I think some of that superiority comes from the fact that they do believe they are better than everyone because they were elected/predestined/chosen and also they were born male. 

We were church shopping a while back after I finally stopped working every effing Sunday. I found one that I liked well enough and attended a while. The main pastor, I liked. He's nice and tries to be caring etc. He gets that there are different kinds of people and you know, all of them might like going to church and believe in God.  The pastor of another campus comes to the one we were going to... show his superiority and gloat I guess? Anyway I couldn't stand the dude. Then he started ranting about trans people (not in brimstone way, not in a "we need to pray to fix these people because they don't get that they're hell bound!" But in a "Eeeew those yucky people who can't even decide what they are lmao!" trying to be funny sort of way. Gag.) every time he walked on stage. I couldn't stand his pompous ass before that but that was it. I couldn't figure out exactly what my problem was until the first time he started about trans people, poor people who aren't actually poor but pretend because nobody but teenagers actually makes that little, lol! and mentioned MacArthur the same sermon. I was back there making all kinds of remarks at the shit coming out of his trash mouth. I tried to only go when I didn't think he'd be there but it got to the point he was at this one more than his own campus. I don't know what was with that. And THEN he moved his time to later so he could come to ours and be a pompous, bigoted dick do it all over again at his own service. I had to quit going and was sad about it but..I couldn't do it with him being there so much. I could wander out of service and eat a donut until I knew the nicer dude was speaking (or literally anyone else) for a while but just couldn't be there anymore without him being knocked down a few pegs. It started making me ragey and belly churning sick to even see him after a while. There are multiple obviously trans people in the congregation and a few gay couples. I don't understand how he can say that shit with them there, nevermind the disgusting stuff about poor people. I thought surely someone (other than me mentioning that it was gross to other leaders and talking to myself and or whoever was near me whenever he spoke) would tell him to shut his stupid face!

Anyway, this is definitely what I figured out. The people like that think they're the best and spend their days looking like disgusting smug assholes because they ARE smug assholes since they think they're the best, period. When they open their mouths, it's horrible. 

3 hours ago, Tangy Bee said:

Wait,  a Duggar actually admitted to waiting to become pregnant?!? I'm still waiting for someone to kiss before marriage! But seriously, I think that was Jeremy's idea to wait. That thought probably never crossed Jinger's mind. Her sisters definitely did not wait.

Jill and Derick mentioned a few months ago (maybe longer? Time lapsing has sorta become a weird thing) that they have sex a LOT lol. They were very obviously using something since she didn't have any reproductive parts removed and that's how they said it without saying it then.

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by RainbowSky

[Jinder Roles]

On 5/11/2021 at 11:39 PM, Travelfan said:

Calvinism requires some really twisted thinking.  I grew up conservative Christian but not Calvinist. I always had doubts about gods actual existence but kept them hidden out of fear of hell. I tried to convince myself I didn’t doubt. Fast forward many years and I’m married to a pastor living as a pastors wife still secretly fighting doubts. My husband starts leaning more Calvinist (not even a word I knew at the time). He follows MacArthur/Piper etc. I naturally follow and just assume this is all correct. As harsh as the doctrine is I could clearly see it right there in Romans. Suddenly I realize why I’ve doubted all these years, I’m not part of the elect.  Panic follows as I realize I’ll never shake these doubts (god has purposefully blinded my eyes to the truth) and I’m going to hell 100%. Eventually I realize that if you follow Calvinism out to it’s conclusion it ends up with god actually being the ultimate bad guy of the Bible. By then I had already decided that whole thing was made up anyway. I’m now happily an atheist, and finally enjoying a life free from the fear of hell!  My husband did eventually step down as pastor. He still believes and attends a different church. I’ll attend on special occasions (I still really like the church dynamic and social structure).  Calvinism is incredibly harsh and I can’t really understand why anyone would want to believe it. Why would you want to believe in such a cold hearted god??  Once I read it in Romans, there was no going back to Arminianism. I could clearly see the Bible followed Calvinism, but for me that harshness lead to atheism.  

This is so interesting!

I definitely was not raised Calvinist and crew up in a very Arminian leaning Baptist church in the Caribbean. 

For me, if I were to ever be a Christian again, I would have to be Calvinist. It is harsh but if you're sticking to traditional Protestant beliefs about salvation, Jesus being the only way, we're all sinners who deserve hell etc. then God is harsh. 

I never understood how I was supposed to have free will when disobedience means my eternal torment and when God has ultimate control (and personal investment) over the creation of the universe and the outcome of everyone's futures. Additionally, the power imbalance between me and God means no human really has free will. It's a set up lol. 

Calvinism makes more sense than Arminianism but I think predestination makes many Christians uncomfortable because it highlights the violence of God. Still, I don't understand how you believe God is omnipotent, omniscient but still think humans have free will. The power dynamics just don't make sense. 

A lot of Reformed Christians are assholes (like Jeremy) and low-key racist. I can't stand their pseudo-intellectualism. 

Also agree that often Reformed and Arminian is not a big deal in practice for a lot of Christians. And some Calvinist takes definitely bleed into Arminian circles. I've heard John Piper being quoted a time or two in my church (and we are clearly anti predestination). 

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Jinder Roles
misread the quoted post

[eljayem]

17 hours ago, Tangy Bee said:

I recall an interview when the girls mentioned they didn't want husbands with "hobbies". I thought that was a weird & selfish thing to say...but the Duggars have always been weird. 

Yeah that's a thing with both the Duggars and Bates' and so maybe with fundies in general "my hobby is my family". I assume it's because it saves money and given their large families they need all hands on deck all the time. I also think the flip side of it is control by always keeping kids in some kind of group activity whether it's school, chores, sharing a bedroom, there is no alone time no chance to develop individual interests.

Jinger and Jeremy however aren't (at this stage) having a huge family and Jeremy didn't grow up like that. He was what, one of two kids? And allowed to develop a passion for soccer which took him away from his family. I wonder if they have ever discussed it?

[eljayem]

18 hours ago, JuanitaBanana said:

I feel bad for Jinger, I think she has lost herself in this marriage.

We've seen Jeremy playing golf and going out with his friends all the time but we never see pictures of Jinger with friends or doing something fun. It's like she can't leave the house unless Jeremy is with her. It's so strange that she had more personality when she was living with the Duggars. 

Well what also makes me sad is I remember Jessa saying it was hard when Jinger got married, and moved to Texas, because they didn't talk very much. This was on the show a few years back so I can't remember the exact words but Jessa said something to the effect of not calling her for a few months so Jinger could get "settled in" and Jessa didn't want to intrude on newly weds.

I wonder now if this is something that Jeremy and maybe even Ben was involved in?

But at any rate I remember thinking that was weird. Those two were best friends, Jinger was already isolated by having moved away, and in a close physical relationship for the first time, I would have thought she would have been on the phone every day to Jessa,

[SorenaJ]

Did it say in the book that they were using condoms? Otherwise they could have used NFP. 

[MaryOrMartha]

What it all boils down to is JB needs to be in control. If a man comes along and wants to pursue one of the Duggar daughters, and JB perceives the potential suitor as someone who can easily take that control from who it rightly belongs, JB, the bigger the hoops to jump. Ben was young and horny for the 'hot Duggar', Derick... not sure what his deal was. Was he playing the long game? Jeremy. Nope. Jeremy was a man, who had lived life and had experiences that JB has not personally had. Very easy for Jeremy to introduce some of that worldy influence to his Jinger, who was, and still is, a people pleaser.

[OldFadedStar]

4 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

Did it say in the book that they were using condoms? Otherwise they could have used NFP. 

It didn’t say in the book how they were preventing... but they both admit to waiting to have a baby to get to know each other. They didn’t start trying for a baby until Jinger said she was ready. She admits in the book that she was a little unsure about kids in general , that she wasn’t as motherly as her sisters. I can’t remember exactly what she said but that’s the impression I got 

[Idlewild]

Remember that face time call they did right after Jinger moved and Jill & Jessa were screeching ‘are you pregnant yet?’ 
That’s why I have no time for Jessa and to some extent Jill when they get snooty about their followers asking about pregnancy- it was pretty much the USP of the show. Jinger couldn’t tell them the truth - surely at that point you’d question being part of this show? 

[Lgirlrocks]

22 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

Remember that face time call they did right after Jinger moved and Jill & Jessa were screeching ‘are you pregnant yet?’ 
That’s why I have no time for Jessa and to some extent Jill when they get snooty about their followers asking about pregnancy- it was pretty much the USP of the show. Jinger couldn’t tell them the truth - surely at that point you’d question being part of this show? 

I give Jill a pass because she is not the same person now as she was then. She has grown a lot. She was neck deep in the koolaid. She also may have been told to ask her by the people on the show. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

My sister and brother-in-law are evangelical Christians who attend a John Piper/ John Macarthur adoring church. It's so much John Macarthur this, John Macarthur that. They would rag on other denominations for idolatry. I never cease to be amazed at their obliviousness to their own idolatry. 

[louisa05]

12 hours ago, RainbowSky said:

 

Jill and Derick mentioned a few months ago (maybe longer? Time lapsing has sorta become a weird thing) that they have sex a LOT lol. They were very obviously using something since she didn't have any reproductive parts removed and that's how they said it without saying it then.

 

On one of the Q&A videos they directly said that they’re using non hormonal birth control. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by louisa05

[Marionette]

1 hour ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

My sister and brother-in-law are evangelical Christians who attend a John Piper/ John Macarthur adoring church. It's so much John Macarthur this, John Macarthur that. They would rag on other denominations for idolatry. I never cease to be amazed at their obliviousness to their own idolatry. 

A few years ago I was helping with music for a women’s group at church... The woman who led it was SO ridiculously obsessed with John MacArthur and would refer to his sermons/commentary every other sentence. I found it cringey at the time, but in hindsight, I wince at the thought of her obsession with him cause he is so misogynistic and was the one who told Beth Moore to stay home. ? 

It’s pretty astounding how evangelicals claim to refer to Scripture only, when they are letting so many teachers/pastors influence their entire belief system. 

[viii]

2 hours ago, OldFadedStar said:

It didn’t say in the book how they were preventing... but they both admit to waiting to have a baby to get to know each other. They didn’t start trying for a baby until Jinger said she was ready. She admits in the book that she was a little unsure about kids in general , that she wasn’t as motherly as her sisters. I can’t remember exactly what she said but that’s the impression I got 

I was on the fence on whether or not J/J were preventing. She gave birth in 2018, had a miscarriage in 2019, and gave birth in 2020. All signs were showing that the baby train was fully loaded and leaving the station. Admitting that they intentionally waited a year and Jinger isn't sure about motherhood makes me hope they really will have a smaller family. Hopefully no more than 4 kids. 

[SassyPants]

3 minutes ago, viii said:

I was on the fence on whether or not J/J were preventing. She gave birth in 2018, had a miscarriage in 2019, and gave birth in 2020. All signs were showing that the baby train was fully loaded and leaving the station. Admitting that they intentionally waited a year and Jinger isn't sure about motherhood makes me hope they really will have a smaller family. Hopefully no more than 4 kids. 

I think if #2 had been a boy, that might have been it. I can’t see them with more than 3-4 kids. He doesn’t seem like a person who would enjoy the mess and noise of a large brood. Plus, has Jeremy ever been around kids? Ben, Kendra, Abbie, Lauren...they’ve all been around kids and likely are more familiar with and accepting of all that large numbers of kids require and add to your life. Out of everyone, I think Ben is the most suited for handling and enjoying a large family. I’m not sure about Jessa though-