Jinjer 56: Oh My Stars It's a Reality Show Book! How Surprising - Not

[socalrules]

So after Jeremy has jumped through all the hoops, and her parents finally approve of him, Jinger basically had to say yes to courting and yes to marriage. Her parents felt he was good enough so basically that has to be good enough for Jinger and so it must be love. There must always be the thought in the daughters’ heads about what if another man won’t jump through the hoops, so take him now. I have no understanding of why Jeremy would put himself through this nonsense for someone he doesn’t know unless he felt she would be the perfect meek, submissive wife and being from a famous family made the ordeal worth it. I assume those two married only knowing the most superficial of information about the other. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by socalrules

[Expectopatronus]

My mind just blows with the fact that JB knows the future husband better than his daughters do, even on their wedding day. I cannot imagine having to have daddy’s approval to even get to know a guy. 

[JMO]

It makes you wonder about the Jana courting rumors.  Is that guy currently jumping through all of these hoops?  And the hints over the years that there were other guys who came forward to try and get to know them but supposedly the girls shot them down?  I'm starting to think that JB did a lot of the time.  This was the first guy that she had a crush on, who had a crush on her and decided to jump through Daddy's hoops.  I want to know if the Duggar boys had to do anything half as humiliating for their brides.  I have a feeling Katy's dad put Jed through the ringer. 

[Marionette]

1 hour ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Nowhere in their discussion of the theological conflict does Jinger have any opinion about it. But she’s not supposed to - she believes what Jim Bob believes until she gets married, and then she believes what Jeremy believes. After they got married she had some time on her hands, so she started studying the Bible and borrowing Jeremy’s theology books. So did she have an insight on the big question of free will vs. predestination? Did she reconsider “spare the rod and spoil the child”? Nope, she decided God is totes cool with women wearing pants. (“I had to walk in truth and follow what I knew the Bible said.”)

You have some good points, thus I call bs on Jinger looking into the pants issue on her own accord. This is pure speculation, but I would not be surprise if Jeremy somewhat bullied or pressured her about how she dressed. He’s obviously been shaping Jinger into his ideal trophy wife, so I imagine him making comments like, “Babe, why don’t you try on some jeans? The Bible doesn’t say anything against it.” Then she went and looked and decided, “Oh yeah, I guess it doesn’t.” She hasn’t reconsidered any other issues because Jeremy has not influenced her in that direction. 

[Travelfan]

Calvinism requires some really twisted thinking.  I grew up conservative Christian but not Calvinist. I always had doubts about gods actual existence but kept them hidden out of fear of hell. I tried to convince myself I didn’t doubt. Fast forward many years and I’m married to a pastor living as a pastors wife still secretly fighting doubts. My husband starts leaning more Calvinist (not even a word I knew at the time). He follows MacArthur/Piper etc. I naturally follow and just assume this is all correct. As harsh as the doctrine is I could clearly see it right there in Romans. Suddenly I realize why I’ve doubted all these years, I’m not part of the elect.  Panic follows as I realize I’ll never shake these doubts (god has purposefully blinded my eyes to the truth) and I’m going to hell 100%. Eventually I realize that if you follow Calvinism out to it’s conclusion it ends up with god actually being the ultimate bad guy of the Bible. By then I had already decided that whole thing was made up anyway. I’m now happily an atheist, and finally enjoying a life free from the fear of hell!  My husband did eventually step down as pastor. He still believes and attends a different church. I’ll attend on special occasions (I still really like the church dynamic and social structure).  Calvinism is incredibly harsh and I can’t really understand why anyone would want to believe it. Why would you want to believe in such a cold hearted god??  Once I read it in Romans, there was no going back to Arminianism. I could clearly see the Bible followed Calvinism, but for me that harshness lead to atheism.  

[justmy2cents]

2 hours ago, JMO said:

It makes you wonder about the Jana courting rumors.  Is that guy currently jumping through all of these hoops?  

Unlike Ben and Jeremy, Stephen comes from a well known family. I’m sure he had to answer the questionnaire but probably didn’t have to spend hours and hours debating theology since they’re probably already on the same page. I could see that whole process being very off-putting.

[Idlewild]

1 hour ago, justmy2cents said:

Unlike Ben and Jeremy, Stephen comes from a well known family. I’m sure he had to answer the questionnaire but probably didn’t have to spend hours and hours debating theology since they’re probably already on the same page. I could see that whole process being very off-putting.

Plus the Duggar leverage has somewhat diminished to say the least. Ben was a teenaged super fan who was clearly desperate to get Jessa, Jeremy was fame hungry who had failed to become a soccer star and was looking for another route to the life he feels he deserves. Jana’s supposed suitor doesn’t need the fame or money (and the way things are going the the Duggars don’t have that to offer for much longer, only infamy) and the Duggars need a wholesome distraction from their cesspool first born.

[sableduck]

It actually surprises me that they’d outline the level of control JB had. Jeremy, at least, should be aware of how weird and controlling it looks, and that it’s bad for their brand.

I honestly wonder what his parents thought and if it raised red flags for them. As a mother, I don’t want to control my kid’s lives, but if they got involved in something like this I’d be voicing my concerns.

[Rachel333]

I find the Calvinist belief that God actively chooses who goes to Heaven, and thus who goes to Hell absolutely repugnant. (I've seen Calvinists claim that God only chooses people to go to Heaven and everyone else was going to Hell anyway so it wasn't God's choice, but come on, it's the same thing as him choosing who goes to Hell.) Now, if you believe in an all-powerful God and believe in Hell then at some point you have to reckon with the fact that God could prevent people from going to Hell (and if you don't believe in Hell then there's still earthly suffering that presents the same problem), but Calvinism is just so direct about it in a way I find incredibly offputting. They really believe that God chose them to be saved and chose a bunch of other people to suffer in Hell for eternity, whereas I feel like the Arminian outlook is a lot kinder in that they don't think it's God's plan for anyone to go to Hell, but sin happens. (Again, I know this presents logical issues as well, but I still prefer it to Calvinism.)

(Also, I should mention that I'm not a Christian and don't actually believe in either anymore.)

On a shallow level too, I just find the new Reformed crowd unbearably obnoxious. They tend to be so pretentious and really into this image of themselves as cultured intellectuals.

[AussieKrissy]

1 hour ago, sableduck said:

I honestly wonder what his parents thought and if it raised red flags for them. As a mother, I don’t want to control my kid’s lives, but if they got involved in something like this I’d be voicing my concerns.

I would being voicing gtfo loudly over and over and then staging an intervention. All fj invited. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by AussieKrissy

[Spock]

First time really posting. Long, long time lurker. I've been in and out of the thread since their book came out but after reading some the chapter recaps, I had a thought. 

Love and genuine feelings/emotions in regards to each other?

This relationship really does sound like a business transaction. In one part (I think it was mentioned in the 9-10 chapter recap) says that Jinger loved Jeremy but are they going into their real emotions/feelings or just telling what happened? Ben wanted to find Jeremy a wife as Jeremy wanted one. Okay? Sure but what about love? Or is it just praying and God telling you that this person is it? 

From the recaps OldFadedStar is doing, I'm not getting any real emotion from either of them besides Jingers saying she was in love at this point and that she was unsure of saying yes to the relationship because of causing division. 

Does Jeremy mention any feelings or real emotions to why he jumped through all those hoops for Jinger? 

To me, it just seemed like a transaction and a way for Jeremy to throw out his bible knowledge to JB. 

[Meggo]

21 minutes ago, Spock said:

First time really posting. Long, long time lurker. I've been in and out of the thread since their book came out but after reading some the chapter recaps, I had a thought. 

Love and genuine feelings/emotions in regards to each other?

This relationship really does sound like a business transaction. In one part (I think it was mentioned in the 9-10 chapter recap) says that Jinger loved Jeremy but are they going into their real emotions/feelings or just telling what happened? Ben wanted to find Jeremy a wife as Jeremy wanted one. Okay? Sure but what about love? Or is it just praying and God telling you that this person is it? 

From the recaps OldFadedStar is doing, I'm not getting any real emotion from either of them besides Jingers saying she was in love at this point and that she was unsure of saying yes to the relationship because of causing division. 

Does Jeremy mention any feelings or real emotions to why he jumped through all those hoops for Jinger? 

To me, it just seemed like a transaction and a way for Jeremy to throw out his bible knowledge to JB. 

this struck me as weird too - she had barely had any interaction with him, but she was in love. Totally willing to walk away when it might upset Daddy though. 
But then REconvinced by her brother in law, sister and mom. 

I guess when you have lowered expectations of marriage (ie - he seems nice and he's so godly and he likes coffee) and aren't allowed to think about members of the opposite sex -  you'll maybe go with the first guy you have a spark with. No matter how brief your encounters. 
 

[JuanitaBanana]

I feel bad for Jinger, I think she has lost herself in this marriage.

We've seen Jeremy playing golf and going out with his friends all the time but we never see pictures of Jinger with friends or doing something fun. It's like she can't leave the house unless Jeremy is with her. It's so strange that she had more personality when she was living with the Duggars. 

[Lgirlrocks]

2 minutes ago, JuanitaBanana said:

I feel bad for Jinger, I think she has lost herself in this marriage.

We've seen Jeremy playing golf and going out with his friends all the time but we never see pictures of Jinger with friends or doing something fun. It's like she can't leave the house unless Jeremy is with her. It's so strange that she had more personality when she was living with the Duggars. 

She’s been taught to please her man always. This probably included hobbies and things he enjoys. Jeremy does seem controlling. Remember when they first married and she stayed at home all day while he worked? A social person like herself had to be in hell. She should have gotten a part time job at a coffee shop or something. 

[Tangy Bee]

I recall an interview when the girls mentioned they didn't want husbands with "hobbies". I thought that was a weird & selfish thing to say...but the Duggars have always been weird. 

[flycat]

I contend that they don't have any desire to be normal. They see themselves as set apart for God so going through long interviews and weird courting rituals are seen as being part of being set aside as more holy and chosen by God.

 

I also think whoever mentioned part of the questionnaire was fear of one of his daughters ending up with a Josh could be true.  Remember none of them received any kind of adequate counseling for what happened. 

[fundiefan]

13 hours ago, grandmadugger said:

But Ben was raised Calvinist and he was accepted into the fold. For crying out loud he named his son Spurgeon. 

Yeah, but Ben prostrated himself before Jim Bob. He moved onto the property and was the whipping boy for how long? It's very clear that JB can get over any theological issues if you bow to him enough. 

His supposed issues with Jeremy over theology had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with control. JB wants it, and he will do anything to get & keep it. 

With Ben, it was easy. He was living right there asking how high when JB said jump. With Derick, although he pulled a bait & switch (no snarking here; good for them) he was a JB study buddy first and JB set up up with Jill, so he clearly said all the right words at the right times. Jeremy didn't live directly under his thumb, so he had to come up with something. 

Also, JB didn't come up with the questionnaire until after Jill & Jessa were married. I saw some video where they were talking about it 

[Free Felicity]

My high school/college sweetheart converted to Calvanism while we were together. He was pretty run of the mill Baptist. He went to a church retreat/camp thing with a friend of ours. He would call me every night while he was there. The first few nights, he talked about how crazy Calvinist theology was to him. Then he bought into it. It was a rapid change over the course of just 24 hours. When we told me about it, at first I thought he was pranking me because he had been so against it for days and then just did a 180. I found the theology very disturbing. We were together for years after the conversion, but I was never happy about the belief. He never waivered from it once he was convinced. He was unsuccessful in converting me to it. I was United Methodist at the time. Now I'm an atheist leaning agnostic.  

Edited May 12, 2021 by Free Felicity
Correcting spelling

[meep]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

First time really posting. Long, long time lurker. I've been in and out of the thread since their book came out but after reading some the chapter recaps, I had a thought. 

Love and genuine feelings/emotions in regards to each other?

This relationship really does sound like a business transaction. In one part (I think it was mentioned in the 9-10 chapter recap) says that Jinger loved Jeremy but are they going into their real emotions/feelings or just telling what happened? Ben wanted to find Jeremy a wife as Jeremy wanted one. Okay? Sure but what about love? Or is it just praying and God telling you that this person is it? 

From the recaps OldFadedStar is doing, I'm not getting any real emotion from either of them besides Jingers saying she was in love at this point and that she was unsure of saying yes to the relationship because of causing division. 

Does Jeremy mention any feelings or real emotions to why he jumped through all those hoops for Jinger? 

To me, it just seemed like a transaction and a way for Jeremy to throw out his bible knowledge to JB. 

How could Jinger love Jeremy when they had barely spent time together? She had a crush...she is "allowed" to call it "love" at that point because they weren't dating and she knew he was serious about marriage. But at the end of the day, it was a crush. You can't love a man after you've spent 2, maybe 3, mega-family dinners with him. 

[viii]

Jinger has completely lost the little identity she had and it's really sad to watch. 

Fully agree with those that doubt her personal research led to her wearing pants. I think it's far more likely that Jeremy said it was fine to wear pants and he'd like her to dress a little nicer. He has groomed her entire personality - why would her appearance be any different? 

[SassyPants]

32 minutes ago, fundiefan said:

Yeah, but Ben prostrated himself before Jim Bob. He moved onto the property and was the whipping boy for how long? It's very clear that JB can get over any theological issues if you bow to him enough. 

His supposed issues with Jeremy over theology had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with control. JB wants it, and he will do anything to get & keep it. 

With Ben, it was easy. He was living right there asking how high when JB said jump. With Derick, although he pulled a bait & switch (no snarking here; good for them) he was a JB study buddy first and JB set up up with Jill, so he clearly said all the right words at the right times. Jeremy didn't live directly under his thumb, so he had to come up with something. 

Also, JB didn't come up with the questionnaire until after Jill & Jessa were married. I saw some video where they were talking about it 

? % spot on. He was able to lord over both Derick (for awhile) and teenager, toilet cleaner Ben, but JB had to have known that Jeremy was too worldly for his usual antics so he devised the questionnaire. If the Duggars go south this time, and the name is no longer synonymous with a TV show and easy money,  IMO the Vuolos will part ways with TTH, much like Derick and Jill.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

3 hours ago, JuanitaBanana said:

I feel bad for Jinger, I think she has lost herself in this marriage.

We've seen Jeremy playing golf and going out with his friends all the time but we never see pictures of Jinger with friends or doing something fun. It's like she can't leave the house unless Jeremy is with her. It's so strange that she had more personality when she was living with the Duggars. 

To be fair, what we’ve seen is not her whole life. It’s entirely possible that she keeps her friends off the TV show and social media to protect their privacy. She says in the book that she made good friends in Laredo (I haven’t gotten to the LA part yet).

[livinginthelight]

I have a couple of thoughts on Calvinism, fwiw to anyone. I think the distinction between Calvinism and Arminianism is way overblown and overemphasized, primarily by people outside of either faith tradition. I say this a a former member of the Lutheran Church (Arminian) and a current member (and elder) of the Presbyterian Church USA, which is rooted in Calvinism.

In theory, I can see where the idea of predestination (a tenet of Calvinism) comes from. None of us can earn our way into heaven- it is a free gift, solely from God and not from our own works. And I 100% agree with this. Calvinists would also say that our "choosing" God cannot therefore be initiated by us, because that would be our own "works" - the apparent choice must be in response to a call from God.

This is where the theological rabbit hole starts, and most churches and Christians kind of gloss over everything because to think about it too deeply makes peoples' heads explode. Because in practice, most of us ALSO believe in free choice. To not have free choice would be suggesting that we are pre-programmed robots, which pretty much no one believes.

My take on it? God loves everyone and calls everyone, and people get a choice whether to respond to that call. Which sounds more Arminian even though I'm a Calvinist Presbyterian. I have NEVER heard a sermon on the topic and most everyone I've talked to about it agrees that it's a tough one to understand and our time is better spent loving others and serving our Lord.

I guess what I'm saying is, we talk a lot on this board about Calvinists vs Arminians, but IMO we are way over-emphasizing a rather blurred distinction.

Which is also why I don't think the Calvinist-Arminian thing was JB's problem with Jeremy. I think it was 100% a control issue.

 

 

[treehugger]

I grew up Calvinist, of the Piper and McArthur type.  While I know many Presbyterians who don’t overthink predestination, there is a huge subset of Calvinists of the Reformed variety that take their theology very seriously.  They do not believe in free will when it comes to salvation matters and do believe that God has created some humans for damnation.  In fact, their theology is so extreme and severe that there are an absurd number of different types of Reformed Calvinist denominations and they do argue with each other over the pettiest things. 
For what it’s worth, I got the hell out of there as soon as I could and am now a practicing Anglican.  

[Coconut Flan]

BTW, JB had the questionnaire from the get go.  It was passed around the fathers.  Derick talked about filling it out and even discussing his answers with Jill.  She thought it was a great idea for getting to know someone.