Jinjer 56: Oh My Stars It's a Reality Show Book! How Surprising - Not

[SassyPants]

2 hours ago, seraaa said:

Jinger was a fully grown adult at this point and couldn't date someone seriously without permission from her dad. I know we know this is how courting works, but reading her account just makes it more real to me how absolutely wild this is.

The women living at home really don't get to make their own decisions until they get married (at which point their husband has to approve, but one imagines the women now have more influence).

 

Jana is 31 and can not go anywhere (purportedly) without a buddy. Let that sink in. And she just complies. That right there  is JB’s system in action. She raised his kids as a youngster, and now, as a grown assed woman, gets treated similarly to her 11 YO sister, by her parents. 

[viii]

The more I think about it, the worse I feel for Jinger. I know she's a grown adult, but I feel horrible that her gut instinct was telling her to avoid Jeremy and he threw a tantrum, plus her sister and brother-in-law had to convince her to re-think. Talk about being pressured from those that should protect you. 

[Idlewild]

4 minutes ago, viii said:

The more I think about it, the worse I feel for Jinger. I know she's a grown adult, but I feel horrible that her gut instinct was telling her to avoid Jeremy and he threw a tantrum, plus her sister and brother-in-law had to convince her to re-think. Talk about being pressured from those that should protect you. 

Ben’s role in this has made me see him differently- I always thought of him as a dim wannabe who was infatuated with Jessa. I wonder if he was actually quite ambitious too- wanting his own ministry and bided his time to get where he wants to be. They’ll probably end up running a mega church together.

After Jill and Jessa left the house I imagine it was harder for Jinger- only Jana who she doesn’t seem that close to and who has her own friends and the. I5s lots of frumpy brothers and Joy who at that time was still very young and not into fashion etc.  The sad truth is marriage would be the only way to get out even if it was to an arse like Jeremy.

[seraaa]

38 minutes ago, viii said:

The more I think about it, the worse I feel for Jinger. I know she's a grown adult, but I feel horrible that her gut instinct was telling her to avoid Jeremy and he threw a tantrum, plus her sister and brother-in-law had to convince her to re-think. Talk about being pressured from those that should protect you. 

To be fair, it may be the case that anxiety got the better of her. She also talks about disliking the disruption and division with the family as a result of her dad not being on board. If this was the case, as someone who also reverts to a kind freeze-style indecision in the face of uncertainty, I can sympathise with her here.

Edited May 5, 2021 by seraaa

[viii]

11 minutes ago, seraaa said:

To be fair, it may be the case that anxiety got the better of her. 

That could be true. I have had anxiety pretty much my entire life and it has stopped me from relationships multiple times. The minute it starts to get serious with a guy, I find a reason to break it off because my anxiety overwhelms me. I guess it could be the same for her. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

It sounds like she was worried that he and JB didn't get along or JB didn't like him. 

That's not a good reason to dump someone imo. If you think that that you don't like him or you're not compatible with each other that's one thing, but to dump him, because dad doesn't like him. 

JB is too controlling and fundies give dad too much control of their love lives. Good for Jessa, Ben, and Michelle for saying "don't worry about JB, you really like him."

Edited May 5, 2021 by Bluebirdbluebell

[viii]

16 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

That's not a good reason to dump someone imo. If you think that that you don't like him or you're not compatible with each other that's one thing, but to dump him, because dad doesn't like him. 

Parental support/approval is huge to some people. Just because you don't think it's not a valid reason doesn't mean it wouldn't be to someone else. I'm mid thirties and I still appreciate my parents' approval on my actions. I've gotten to the point where I'll still do something I want, even if they disagree, but I feel guilty. Growing up being taught complete submission and obedience will do this to a person. 

[SassyPants]

33 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

It sounds like she was worried that he and JB didn't get along or JB didn't like him. 

That's not a good reason to dump someone imo. If you think that that you don't like him or you're not compatible with each other that's one thing, but to dump him, because dad doesn't like him. 

JB is too controlling and fundies give dad too much control of their love lives. Good for Jessa, Ben, and Michelle for saying "don't worry about JB, you really like him."

I could see a minor looking to their parents for relationship affirmation, but not a grown woman. And of course, most, if not all minors shouldn’t be considering entering a life long committed relationship.

This whole daddy making the final decision is unhealthy. If an individual is not adult or confident enough to be making the decision, perhaps that individual is not ready for such a relationship.

[GuineaPigCourtship]

I am super close to my parents and if they hated anyone I was pursuing a serious relationship with, I would want their approval. It's not the only thing that would count, but my desire for a harmonious life with spouse and family is a big deal. I also would not want to marry someone whose parents disliked me. What about holidays and relationships with grandchildren? It's just so much easier if everyone can get along. Of course JB is an ass an she would be better off with distance, imo. For the record my husband and parents get along most of the time but not always and his parents adore me (and I them). I had an ex whose parents absolutely hated me and actively tried to convince him to ask out other girls whenever I wasn't around. I do not miss that at all.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

2 hours ago, viii said:

Parental support/approval is huge to some people. Just because you don't think it's not a valid reason doesn't mean it wouldn't be to someone else. I'm mid thirties and I still appreciate my parents' approval on my actions. I've gotten to the point where I'll still do something I want, even if they disagree, but I feel guilty. Growing up being taught complete submission and obedience will do this to a person. 

I know that this is how she was raised. I know why it upset her that her father didn't approve of Jeremy. My point was it's side effect of this cult that fathers are indulged to the point he could ruin a good relationship.

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

This whole daddy making the final decision is unhealthy. If an individual is not adult or confident enough to be making the decision, perhaps that individual is not ready for such a relationship.

This is what I was getting at. Thank you, SassyPants.

[onekidanddone]

5 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Jana is 31 and can not go anywhere (purportedly) without a buddy. Let that sink in. And she just complies. That right there  is JB’s system in action. She raised his kids as a youngster, and now, as a grown assed woman, gets treated similarly to her 11 YO sister, by her parents. 

One of the things I don’t get about an accountability parter is once a woman is married she is suddenly and able to go out by herself?

[justmy2cents]

It took JB 5 months to come around but when he gave his approval for the relationship to move forward, Jinger got cold feet. It’s not that JB didn’t like Jeremy, they just had differences of theology and Jinger didn’t want to have that conflict in her family. It seems that JB participated along with Michelle, and Ben and Jessa in getting Jinger to change her mind. Of course it’s messed up how she was raised to need everyone’s approval to decide to get to know someone. This was not even a courtship yet.

[Anna Bolinas]

7 hours ago, fundiefan said:

If your chosen boyfriend has to jump through hoops for daddy so you don't get hurt, you should probably not have strung the dude along or allowed yourself to feel anything. Isn't courting supposed to prevent that? If you had issues with it, take it up with your father. 

 

I mean, by that same token, if Jeremy has a problem with Jinger's family being all up in their business, then he probably shouldn't have bothered trying to court her in the first place. It wasn't like it was some kind of secret that the Duggars vetted the potential courters. Both Jill and Jessa had already courted and married by the time Jinger and Jeremy started. Jeremy was even friends with Jessa and Ben, so surely he knew a little bit about their relationship. And I don't think it's fair to say it's "stringing Jeremy along." Jinger has the right to change her mind.

(I hope this doesn't come off too combative, I'm really not trying to like accuse you of being too mean to Jinger or anything lol, and I get your criticisms, I just think Jeremy's whole "Jinger jerked me around!" thing is like......surely he's been broken up with before? Sure, he can be disappointed, but it's annoying coming from him because it's just so incel-y.)

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, onekidanddone said:

One of the things I don’t get about an accountability parter is once a woman is married she is suddenly and able to go out by herself?

I think it’s assumed they’ll always have a kid in tow. Wonder if a fetus in utero counts?

[AussieKrissy]

19 hours ago, IsmeWeatherwax said:

Chapter 17, His joy comes in the morning..... ?

thread title....

On 5/5/2021 at 1:35 PM, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I bought the ebook. They named their miscarried baby Halleli Grace. We didn’t know that, did we? It’s in the dedication. Skimming the last few pages, they don’t seem to say why they picked the name.

is that pronounced like hayley

[baldricks_turnip]

6 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

One of the things I don’t get about an accountability parter is once a woman is married she is suddenly and able to go out by herself?

I reckon its because once they are married there is now no reputation of virginity to protect. Until the point of marriage they can claim the young woman has basically never been alone with a man so no one can possibly suggest has ever happened.

[baldricks_turnip]

15 hours ago, Marionette said:

Back in my fundie days, I remember there being a stir over Jinger & Jeremy’s relationship due to his theology. People gossiped about it a lot. What never made sense to me was that there was not a similar concern over Ben, who I’m pretty sure holds very similar theological beliefs as Jeremy.  Ben was the one who was initially friends with Jeremy and introduced him to the Duggars, after all. Is it because Jeremy was older and possibly more set in his ways, and Ben came across as open-minded and impressionable?  

I don't know much about the specifics of different branches of Christianity. Are you able to provide some examples of the clashing beliefs?

[neuroticcat]

On 4/28/2021 at 4:45 PM, SassyPants said:

Jana had to go to WW with Michelle. 

I remember this episode well because I was thinking about starting WW at the time. It was actually about Jim Bob wanting to lose weight, and Michelle explained how she always lost the baby weight via weight watchers and they went to a meeting together. Jana

went along too but Michelle implied it was Jana’s initiative - that she wanted to learn about nutrition for the family but I don’t think they really interviewed Jana. I do remember Jim Bob eating stewed tomatoes out of a cam as part of his “diet” though. ?

There have been a few times I’ve gotten ED vibes on the show - Joy talking about Jana eating only two eggs every day for breakfast, the older girls going through super thin phases and eating salads only on screen, but the WW episode wasn’t really one of them honestly. 

[wendy-sparkles]

4 hours ago, baldricks_turnip said:

I don't know much about the specifics of different branches of Christianity. Are you able to provide some examples of the clashing beliefs?

I'm not even close to an expert (Catholic not protestant) but I believe it's that the Duggar family are Baptists, whereas Ben and Jeremy are Reformed Baptists (I think??). Baptists generally believe that salvation is available to everyone that accepts Jesus Christ etc. but Reformed churches are Calvinist, which means they believe that there is an 'Elect' group of people that are predestined for salvation and the rest of us are damned basically no matter what. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

I know Calvinists are also very big on "once saved, always saved" so they hand wave away Joshua Harrises and others apostasy with "they must never have been saved to begin with." Other fundies like Church of Christ believe Joshua Harris was once saved but "lost" his salvation when he left the church. 

[lexiloumarie]

I would imagine the difference between Jeremy and Ben being not just the theology but the doctrine of I'm getting my terminology right. Ben is as skirts only, no alcohol conservative as the Duggars so the Calvinism wasn't as much of an issue. But Jeremy has preached on accepting alcohol in moderation, very different modesty standards, very different views on family planning, etc correct? Which I imagine would give JB more pause. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

Jeremy was also older than Ben by at least a decade with far more "worldly" experience. With the "I went away to college and turned into a sinning sinner" testimony to prove it. JB isn't dumb and would have recognized Jeremy as not being impressionable and malleable to anywhere the extent Ben was. 

[theotherelise]

There are plenty of practice differences... the Duggars are King James Version only. Reformed churches (in the model of John MacArthur) tend to use the English Standard Version. The Duggars don't believe in dancing or worship music with drums. Reformed churches are fine with both. The Duggars believe in alcohol abstinence and no form of birth control. Reformed churches are typically okay with limited drinking and absolutely okay with birth control which prevents fertilization. 

There are also plenty of practice similarities... While not exactly the same language of headship and umbrella of protection, reformed churches do preach complementarity and wifely submission. The extent of that submission (only to husband or even into the workplace) varies widely. And it should be noted that in all churches, what is preached is not necessarily what is happening in the homes of the parishioners (ie catholic women usually use birth control and many couples in reformed or IFBish churches have egalitarian relationships). Both views are opposed to any marriage or physical relationship outside of one man and one woman. Both are biblical literalists (although probably not all are young earth creationists). For the most part, they don't practice infant baptism. 

Theologically, the difference is best described as TULIP vs. DAISY. The graphic below gives a general overview. Neither the reformed movement and the IFB churches are part of a unified denomination, so not every church ticks every box. (For instance, the Caldwell's church which the Duggars had attended believes in the perseverance of salvation, so the Duggars likely do not believe that you can lose your salvation after saying the sinners prayer or whatever).

Honestly, the differences in practice were probably a bigger deal than any differences in theology. A lot of it is semantics and I'm sure like 90% of people wouldn't be able to tell much difference between Grace Community and Lighthouse Baptist.

[Pecansforeveryone]

I think JBs main objection was Jeremy himself. How "worldly" and not remotely fawning over JB Jeremy was. I think theological differences become a bigger deal once it's outside the realm of Evangelical Christianity. Even conservative Lutherans and Presbyterians would get the boot since I don't see JB and Michelle looking the other way on infant baptism. 

[SassyPants]

Thinking aloud- Why the hell should what JB or M believe or want have any effect on the spouses their adult offspring choose? Their belief system is so twisted and incongruent with American community and societal life it’s sickening, and so destructive. Can they not tell from the behaviors of son #1 that there methods are less than healthy?