Duggars by the Dozen 41: Marrying off the Kidults at the Speed of Light

[SorenaJ]

According to DuggarData, Joy, Lauren, Abbie and Claire are all due to announce pregnancies in August. If DD is right, it might be a busy month. 

[raayx01]

3 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

According to DuggarData, Joy, Lauren, Abbie and Claire are all due to announce pregnancies in August. If DD is right, it might be a busy month. 

I'm glad the girls are having gaps in-between their pregnancies (except Kendra), but you'd think with the way they were raised and them still mostly being brainwashed that they'd be having a kid every year like Michelle. The same thing goes for the bates girls. Kelly had a kid every year and the bates girls (except Tori and Erin) are taking the god damn time. Which is a good thing.

[SorenaJ]

2 hours ago, raayx01 said:

I'm glad the girls are having gaps in-between their pregnancies (except Kendra), but you'd think with the way they were raised and them still mostly being brainwashed that they'd be having a kid every year like Michelle. The same thing goes for the bates girls. Kelly had a kid every year and the bates girls (except Tori and Erin) are taking the god damn time. Which is a good thing.

It is quite interesting to see the difference between those who practice "Nature's Spacing" (a baby about every other year), and those who purposefully have as many kids as possible (and how they justify either within their religious world views). 

I do a lot of genealogy, and generally they would have a baby every other year, until their early 40s. If there is only a year between babies, it is often because the first baby died, and then the mother's fertility returned quicker than if she was breastfeeding the first baby.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

7 hours ago, raayx01 said:

I'm glad the girls are having gaps in-between their pregnancies (except Kendra), but you'd think with the way they were raised and them still mostly being brainwashed that they'd be having a kid every year like Michelle. The same thing goes for the bates girls. Kelly had a kid every year and the bates girls (except Tori and Erin) are taking the god damn time. Which is a good thing.

Michelle has always said that she knows that it’s unusual that she could get pregnant while breastfeeding, and she thinks that without that, she would have had about half as many children. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

10 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Michelle has always said that she knows that it’s unusual that she could get pregnant while breastfeeding, and she thinks that without that, she would have had about half as many children. 

With my younger son, I didn’t get my period back until he was over 13 months old. If I was fundie quiverful, I wouldn’t have that many kids. Especially since I dealt with infertility. I would be been the quiverful fundie with 4 kids. Lol.

[Travelfan]

Reading this thread this morning has just caused me to realize something I NEVER thought of before. I did not nurse my children. I never had any desire to, I didn’t even attempt it. I had working in the infant room of a daycare for 2 years and had been a nanny to a family with an infant for 2 years before having kids of my own. I knew bottles and formula and I wasn’t about to try something new. I planned to have my kids about 5 years apart, but when my daughter was 8 months old I had a very unexpected pregnancy. Our kids are 17 months apart and are now 19 & 18. It literally just hit me that if I had decided to nurse my daughter I probably would not have my son!!!

BTW I’m SO glad they are close together!  I highly recommend an age gap of less than 2 years. I don’t know what I was thinking wanting a 5 year difference…I’d have a 19 & 14 year old now ?

[CanadianMamam]

4 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

With my younger son, I didn’t get my period back until he was over 13 months old. If I was fundie quiverful, I wouldn’t have that many kids. Especially since I dealt with infertility. I would be been the quiverful fundie with 4 kids. Lol.

Where as I had my period back within 4-6 months each time, even with breastfeeding. I also have two sets of aunt's who are 13 months apart and suspect my grandmother bounded back quickly. If I had kept going at the spacing of my two oldest children, I could be about to pop out child #7 in 10 years. 

[Smee]

I breastfed my kids until at least 18 months each, and was (intentionally) pregnant with #2 before #1 had weaned and #3 before #2 had weaned. Each time I fell pregnant on the first cycle of trying. My period returned to a regular 28-day clockwork like cycle 6 weeks, 5 weeks and 12 weeks after birth, respectively. Thank God for condoms coz if I was fundie I would be birthing at a Courtney Rodgers rate. Shudder.

[AprilQuilt]

My period came back when my daughter was about 11 months old - which makes sense as I'd been reducing her feeds since she became interested in solids. Even so, without contraception - and not 'trying' either, but certainly not planning or purposefully abstaining - I didn't conceive again until the month of her second birthday. And I'd say I'm pretty fertile in that I've been pregnant 5 times now with very little effort. So... it's not just a question of whether you're ovulating, although of course that's part of the picture. It's ALL the other variables.

A healthy couple actively trying to conceive could expect to have a 15-25% chance of that in any given month. And then with small children and tiring lives, with the best will in the world sex is sometimes quite far down the to-do list. JB and Michelle have been extremely vocal about how much they were boning and how righteous that made them. Was it them or someone of their general type who said that you can't just mourn the miscarriages, it should be every. single. wasted. egg. that happened not to become a baby? Like they're ALL missing from your family reunion?!

I wouldn't be surprised if some Duggar/quiverful kidults also think this way, but a lot probably aren't that hardcore, and will find that their spacing is naturally more spread out. The Duggars aren't just outliers because of Michelle's fertility - they were also working way way harder than most couples to make the next baby happen.

[GuineaPigCourtship]

That's so stupid. If god had wanted that egg fertilized it would have happened. Or do they not actually believe in His plans after all?

[fluffernutter]

I got mine back within 6 weeks after the births of my three despite around the clock nursing. ?‍♀️ I probably would've had a mighty quiverfull had that been my wish. 

[Bastet]

As we know, anything that might result in a woman’s milk supply dipping could prompt ovulation. I have a theory that many women get their periods back because that baby sitter you thought you could trust (your own mother!) has decided it’s high time baby started on solid foods. It was French fries in my son’s case. “And he liked them!”

[The butcher's wife]

People's fertility is so interesting. Friends of mine started trying for a baby over a year ago. I've talked about the female part of that couple before; she has five siblings (her parents wanted a fourth child and ended up with spontaneous triplets for that pregnancy, doubling the amount of children they had), and her parents never had any trouble conceiving. Her husband is an only child, and always thought that was by his parent's choice. Not so; his parents did IUI to conceive him as apparently his dad's sperm has low motility. But do you think his parents would have had the common sense to convey that information to their son at some point in his married life? Because as it turns out, he has low motility as well. And they needn't have tried for over a year and worried about what might be wrong with either one of them and could just have tested for that from the get go; it's not a difficult or painful test to perform after all. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed for them to hopefully manage with IUI as well and not need IVF. They are in their early 30s by the way, and were married for 5+ years before they started trying (you know, finishing their MAs and getting some work experience first). I so wish more of our fundies would find that God had laid it on their hearts to wait a few years, especially the hyper-fertile ones.

[theotherelise]

I got my period back 6 weeks after giving birth despite exclusive breastfeeding. But the IUD, infrequent sex from pelvic floor dysfunction and my husband's depression and our combined lack of sleep with a high need baby, and 2.5 years of unsuccessfully trying to conceive prior to my IVF baby have certainly prevented a pregnancy. 

While I struggled with infertility getting pregnant at all, many many women struggle with secondary infertility who had little or no trouble getting pregnant previously. Many many couples deal with altered drives after having a child. Having a regular period does not mean you won't face subfertility. You can have a period even if you aren't ovulating!

I think it's hard to grasp just how absurdly far KellyJo and Michelle are as outliers:

• Believe in having as many children as possible with no birth control, even NFP
• Fertile soon after giving birth and/or while breastfeeding a child under 6 months
• Time and interest in sex soon after giving birth (or committed duty to it) and with multiple young children
• Partners with high sperm counts, high motility and normal morphology
• Lower than average incidence of miscarriage/stillbirth (KJ had 4, Michelle had 2)
• Fertile into her 40s (Michelle was 43 with Josie, KJ was 45 with Jeb)
• Limited pregnancy complications (KJ used progesterone in her final three births, Michelle had pre-eclampsia with Josie)
• Successful vaginal birth after caesarian (at least for Michelle, no clue about KJ)
• Limited birth complications (i.e. hemorrhaging, placenta previa, other conditions that would make future pregnancies higher risk and/or potentially cause a loss of fertility)

Even if a 2nd gen wanted to try and follow in the 19 kids footsteps, it is unlikely they could. Only time will tell if Tori or Kendra are similar outliers.

6 hours ago, The butcher's wife said:

his parents did IUI to conceive him as apparently his dad's sperm has low motility. But do you think his parents would have had the common sense to convey that information to their son at some point in his married life? Because as it turns out, he has low motility as well. And they needn't have tried for over a year and worried about what might be wrong with either one of them and could just have tested for that from the get go; it's not a difficult or painful test to perform after all. 

Most sperm count issues are not genetic, so no it's not weird at all for parents not to tell their son that they dealt with male factor infertility. If they had genetic testing done and found out it was a genetic cause, then sure they should share that information, but low motility just happens and even knowing now that they both have low motility could just be a coincidence. 

Many many many many doctors will not proceed with fertility testing, even semen analysis until you've been trying for 6-12 months. Even with sperm issues, a lot of couples can still get pregnant spontaneously without intervention. Doctors will 100% tell you that you're overreacting and to just relax. Ask me how I know.

[theotherelise]

15 hours ago, AprilQuilt said:

A healthy couple actively trying to conceive could expect to have a 15-25% chance of that in any given month.

This statistic is cited frequently by doctors and laymen alike. But it's not actually a good use of data. And I've actually never even been able to locate a study that indicates 25% chance. But there are some really high quality studies that show time to pregnancy for couples who are actively timing intercourse to try to conceive.

If you are actively trying to hit fertile windows, after one month, 65% will not be pregnant. After 3 months, 35% will not be pregnant. After 6 months, 20% will not be pregnant. If you are not pregnant after 6 months of timed trying, you have a 50% likelihood of becoming pregnant in the next 6 months. (SOURCE: note, I rounded the numbers very slightly)

So your first cycle trying, more than a third of couples will get pregnant and two thirds of couples will get pregnant within 3 cycles of trying. 

Unlike flipping a coin, the longer it takes you to get pregnant with timed intercourse, the lower your likelihood of getting pregnant the next month is because you are more likely to be sub-fertile. This is similar to why most fertility doctors only recommend 3 medicated IUI cycles before escalating fertility treatment options. If you don't get pregnant in 3 IUIs, you are not likely to get pregnant from IUI. 

[sansan]

Back to marrying them off for a minute, am I the only one surprised that when they register for stuff when they are getting married that they don’t list a year’s supply of paper plates and of course matching plastic cups. I mean, it would almost be the most practical thing for them. Maybe they are embarrassed about it, but I doubt it.

[BensAllergies]

I’ve always wondered what comes first: the chicken or the egg? My insurance covered only 3 rounds of IUI so that is what my treatment plan was before moving on to IVF (luckily round 2 was successful). No doubt the insurance company uses research to inform their decisions but there’s also the $$$$ factor. The doctor certainly wanted to know what my insurance plan said because otherwise I think she would have recommended IVF first.

I’ve also wondered how in depth the conversations are between mothers and daughters in fundieland before marriage. I was raised in mainstream Mormonism and my mom lacked SEVERELY in preparing me for sex during marriage even though she was not raised religious; she converted later in life. The advice I would give virgins before marriage would be: 1) Learn about UTIs; 2) Use those plastic or rubber inserts the month before the wedding to slowly open the vagina and to overcome any mental blocks; 3) See a pelvic floor therapist if experiencing pain or discomfort and after childbirth.

Edited July 29, 2021 by BensAllergies
Submitted before finishing last sentence of first paragraph

[SorenaJ]

32 minutes ago, sansan said:

Back to marrying them off for a minute, am I the only one surprised that when they register for stuff when they are getting married that they don’t list a year’s supply of paper plates and of course matching plastic cups. I mean, it would almost be the most practical thing for them. Maybe they are embarrassed about it, but I doubt it.

I think maybe it is their first time having a chance at "luxury" items, so they go for that on their registry, as opposed to "everyday" items that they are used to. 

[OHFL2009]

13 minutes ago, BensAllergies said:

I’ve always wondered what comes first: the chicken or the egg? My insurance covered only 3 rounds of IUI so that is what my treatment plan was before moving on to IVF (luckily round 2 was successful). No doubt the insurance company uses research to inform their decisions but there’s also the $$$$ factor. The doctor certainly wanted to know what insurance 

My insurance covers nothing related to infertility, and if we had gone down that road, the "standard" course that was outlined for me would have been 3 or 4 months of IUI followed by IVF if IUI was unsuccessful. The reproductive endocrinologist did tell me that the odds of IUI working were very low, and semi-encouraged me to skip it and go straight to IVF since I would be paying out of pocket and he thought IUI would be a waste of money. But this was also before they had done any testing other than a sperm analysis for my husband. It felt like the appointment was a sales pitch for IVF more than trying to determine a cause and treatment plan for my specific infertility, so maybe he was pushing me that way because IVF was way more expensive (and more profitable for him) than IUI. 

[NotQuiteMotY]

22 hours ago, CanadianMamam said:

Where as I had my period back within 4-6 months each time, even with breastfeeding. I also have two sets of aunt's who are 13 months apart and suspect my grandmother bounded back quickly. If I had kept going at the spacing of my two oldest children, I could be about to pop out child #7 in 10 years. 

Working on the math, based on how quickly I conceive and when I got my period back after my first two pregnancies, if we were quiverfull I'd be fairly well into if not due with pregnancy number six (nine years of marriage this summer). Eep!

[CanadianMamam]

6 minutes ago, NotQuiteMotY said:

Working on the math, based on how quickly I conceive and when I got my period back after my first two pregnancies, if we were quiverfull I'd be fairly well into if not due with pregnancy number six (nine years of marriage this summer). Eep!

Yeah and with my second, I actually got my period back four months we started trying for a second, so the gap probably could have been closer. I had basically wanted the summer (and several occasions where I’d be drinking) to pass before I got pregnant again but every time I tried to get pregnant, I got pregnant on the first try. I could definitely have a full quiver by now if we had been quiverful and I didn’t have my first until 28. If I had started in my early 20s like some of these women, I could easily have a dozen children by now (no thanks). 

[NotQuiteMotY]

19 minutes ago, CanadianMamam said:

Yeah and with my second, I actually got my period back four months we started trying for a second, so the gap probably could have been closer. I had basically wanted the summer (and several occasions where I’d be drinking) to pass before I got pregnant again but every time I tried to get pregnant, I got pregnant on the first try. I could definitely have a full quiver by now if we had been quiverful and I didn’t have my first until 28. If I had started in my early 20s like some of these women, I could easily have a dozen children by now (no thanks). 

I got married in my late 20s. I shudder to think of if I'd gotten married in my late teens instead. I'd be approaching if not into double digits by now.

(And that's counting how I did the math wrong in my last post, especially since I somehow added a year to how long I've been married. I'd still have at least four kids.)

[mstee]

Yeah I shudder to think how many kids I’d have if I were quiverfull. My cycles are like clockwork and I know when I’m ovulating and both my pregnancies were planned and happened the first month of trying. Sometimes I joke it’s a waste that we are done having kids. I wish I could loan out my fertility to others for a while. My first birth was long but uneventful and my second delivery was much shorter and easier.

I think Tori and Kendra will go on into the double digits. 

[Smee]

Yeah, while I know fertility is more complicated than just the return of a period, I really do think I have the kind of outlier fertility of some of the fundies we discuss. When I say my cycle returned 6 weeks post partum, I’m talking about round the clock breastfeeding with babies who didn’t sleep more than 3 hours. We actively prevented using barrier methods, because every time we wanted to be pregnant, the only thing we did was stop using condoms and a few weeks later there was the positive test. I had three textbook pregnancies and vaginal births (#2 and #3 were also very fast births, less than 4 hours after the first contraction) and then my husband had a vasectomy. With our third, one might have expected it to take a little longer because in addition to still breastfeeding #2 and getting up multiple times a night, I had an eating disorder and had lost 25kg in the space of 4 months. But nope, my body reeeeally likes babies. I also had a douchebag husband who “needed” sex at least twice a week and literally cried when our 2nd child was 4 weeks old (and our toddler was still waking overnight too) because he was so sexually frustrated ? I married him when I was 21, and I genuinely believe if we had been quiverfull I would be well and truly trapped by now with 10 kids.

[Antipatriarch]

Story on the Duggars and TLC "Counting On" cancellation on the Washington Post this morning:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/2021/07/30/duggars-canceled-tlc/

Poor headline (as they often are); it ends with "that doesn’t mean people can count them out for good" but the article hardly talks about that and kinda peters out at the end. No mention of Jana, or the viewer draw from Duggar weddings.