Duggars by the Dozen 41: Marrying off the Kidults at the Speed of Light

[closetcagebaby]

I think in general it’s an unpopular opinion to not wish for people to have the children they want, but sometimes it’s a good thing. The less children born into this cult the better. If all the Duggars stopped reproducing tomorrow, it would be a good thing. Because they are in a cult that harms children and harms the world at large. I don’t give a shit if Jana wants ten kids, I hope she has none. And as far as Stephen being her last hope? She’s 30, she has property in her name, she can literally leave any time she pleases. 

[SassyPants]

28 minutes ago, closetcagebaby said:

I think in general it’s an unpopular opinion to not wish for people to have the children they want, but sometimes it’s a good thing. The less children born into this cult the better. If all the Duggars stopped reproducing tomorrow, it would be a good thing. Because they are in a cult that harms children and harms the world at large. I don’t give a shit if Jana wants ten kids, I hope she has none. And as far as Stephen being her last hope? She’s 30, she has property in her name, she can literally leave any time she pleases. 

I don’t wish infertility on anyone, but...a long case of secondary? tertiary? quad...infertility would be good for Joe and Kendra’s family, Ben and Jessa’s family and Joy and Austin’s family. Popping out baby after baby ala a Pez dispenser is not healthy for any woman, couple or family. It just isn’t.

[Idlewild]

@HerNameIsBuffy I do agree with you about the cult and it could be Jana will never be or aspire to be independent of a man, whether it’s her father or her husband.

However I do think JB’s success in maintaining his patriarchal cult is the financial clout he has over his children - he brought them up with no proper education, no aspirations for any profession other than house flipper or used car salesman ( and the. Apart from getting a real estate licence we’ve seen no evidence of proper trade apprenticeships or qualifications) and no sense of duty or respect to anyone but him and Michelle (‘Duggar time’ being the most obvious example - no employer would put up with that appalling attitude for long). the children become soft and lazy- subsidised housing  and enough to live on means they can continue breeding for Jesus and if they try and leave find they have no marketable skills that will keep a large family in the style they’re used to. Derick’s education and work experience made him dangerous  to JB- he has proved he doesn’t need them. I doubt any of JBs sons are that brave (& I don’t particularly like Derick)- even the much lauded John David - he lives in tiny home yet flies around a plane pretending to be international rescue. 

[hauntedoklahoma]

I don't necessarily see it as so black and white that "hoping Jana gets out of her father's house and if that means she's marrying Stephen then yes I hope that happens" as being automatically shippy and leg humping. It doesn't have to be so black and white, one or the other. Just like you can be a victim and an abuser at the same time. I hope she gets out, too. I don't particularly care one way or the other if or when she marries, but it's the only way she's going to ever get some measure of freedom. And the fact of the matter is, we don't know how much of the flavraid she's still going to be guzzling when or if she leaves. No matter how much evidence there is one way or the other to how enmeshed in the cult she (or any other fundie) might be--we do not have divine knowledge about who is/isn't going to break free. It's all just speculation and gossip regardless. 

[SassyPants]

7 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

@HerNameIsBuffy I do agree with you about the cult and it could be Jana will never be or aspire to be independent of a man, whether it’s her father or her husband.

However I do think JB’s success in maintaining his patriarchal cult is the financial clout he has over his children - he brought them up with no proper education, no aspirations for any profession other than house flipper or used car salesman ( and the. Apart from getting a real estate licence we’ve seen no evidence of proper trade apprenticeships or qualifications) and no sense of duty or respect to anyone but him and Michelle (‘Duggar time’ being the most obvious example - no employer would put up with that appalling attitude for long). the children become soft and lazy- subsidised housing  and enough to live on means they can continue breeding for Jesus and if they try and leave find they have no marketable skills that will keep a large family in the style they’re used to. Derick’s education and work experience made him dangerous  to JB- he has proved he doesn’t need them. I doubt any of JBs sons are that brave (& I don’t particularly like Derick)- even the much lauded John David - he lives in tiny home yet flies around a plane pretending to be international rescue. 

100% agree with all of this. Have any of those who hold RE licenses ever sold a home to anyone not named Duggar? Lack of education = bad. Lack of skills= worse. Lack of sustained work ethic= the worst.

JB has raised entitled offspring and he did so to benefit JB. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by SassyPants

[FiveAcres]

3 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

100% agree with all of this. Have any of those who hold RE licenses ever sold a home to anyone not named Duggar? Lack of education = bad. Lack of skills= worse. Lack of sustained work ethic= the worst.

JB has raised entitled offspring and he did so to benefit JB. 

I was wondering this same thing about the RE licenses. From what I've observed, it's hard work if you do it well. (When we moved from Texas to Colorado, we had a guaranteed buyout from the company we worked for, but first we had to try to sell the property before the buyout could happen. We had two realtors present to us. The first pretty much said that rural properties weren't selling. The second made a very nice presentation to us, and sure enough, found us a cash offer so we didn't have to take the buyout.) 

[SassyPants]

Just now, FiveAcres said:

I was wondering this same thing about the RE licenses. From what I've observed, it's hard work if you do it well. (When we moved from Texas to Colorado, we had a guaranteed buyout from the company we worked for, but first we had to try to sell the property before the buyout could happen. We had two realtors present to us. The first pretty much said that rural properties weren't selling. The second made a very nice presentation to us, and sure enough, found us a cash offer so we didn't have to take the buyout.) 

We had to take the company buyout in 2009 when our large, rural property did not sell. Bad timing- our nephew is a very successful realtor. He works reallllly hard!

[Meggo]

1 hour ago, FiveAcres said:

I was wondering this same thing about the RE licenses. From what I've observed, it's hard work if you do it well. (When we moved from Texas to Colorado, we had a guaranteed buyout from the company we worked for, but first we had to try to sell the property before the buyout could happen. We had two realtors present to us. The first pretty much said that rural properties weren't selling. The second made a very nice presentation to us, and sure enough, found us a cash offer so we didn't have to take the buyout.) 

I have a friend who spent his entire career (so - easily 30 years) in radio. As either on air talent or management & programming etc. He moved out to NB and got laid off and went into real estate a year or so ago. He's doing SO well at it. He's a good salesman anyway - years in radio and radio sales will do that - but he's putting out videos for people to tour houses virtually and he's got a great gig going. Now he was also highly motivated to do it (they wanted to stay in the area & he needed a gig) - but there is nothing saying that one of the Duggars with a little bit of moxy couldn't also pull that off. But.. they'd need some moxy. 

[baldricks_turnip]

2 hours ago, hauntedoklahoma said:

I don't necessarily see it as so black and white that "hoping Jana gets out of her father's house and if that means she's marrying Stephen then yes I hope that happens" as being automatically shippy and leg humping. It doesn't have to be so black and white, one or the other.

I agree. I want mostly want good things for the Duggars because I want good things for everyone. My first choice would be for them to experience self discovery, self determination, a new desire for education, a broadening of their scope of the world, either parting with their faith or holding onto faith without bigotry. If that is too much to hope for, I do want them to achieve happiness within their chosen lifestyle because I think unhappy people are poisonous to those around them and their own children are more likely to achieve success in life with happy parents.

Maybe this is all too simplistic leghumpy, but it's just been my experience of the world that miserable people tend to cling to toxicity, not move away from it.

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, baldricks_turnip said:

I agree. I want mostly want good things for the Duggars because I want good things for everyone. My first choice would be for them to experience self discovery, self determination, a new desire for education, a broadening of their scope of the world, either parting with their faith or holding onto faith without bigotry. If that is too much to hope for, I do want them to achieve happiness within their chosen lifestyle because I think unhappy people are poisonous to those around them and their own children are more likely to achieve success in life with happy parents.

Maybe this is all too simplistic leghumpy, but it's just been my experience of the world that miserable people tend to cling to toxicity, not move away from it.

I think you just described what Jill has done and continues to do. I wish they could all live the lives they choose, and make the adult choices that they want to make. Jana should not be living the life prescribed to her by JB. She is 31 YO and should be doing whatever she chooses within the confines of the law.

The whole brain washing and control borders on abuse, IMO.

[GuineaPigCourtship]

@HerNameIsBuffy I appreciate your wording. I generally do not wish these people badly (although I do hope Josh gets everything the courts can throw at him if convicted), but I can't hope for anything that allows them to perpetuate the abuse on any more innocents. Like if Jana wants to get married, sure, I guess, get married and be happy. But you don't get a pass on repeating your parents' shitty behavior.

And until they're ready to do better, I hope they're all struck with fertility issues. I just had a baby after several years of struggle and I know it is very painful to want and not have... but not as painful as a child growing up stunted and not appreciated as an individual. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by GuineaPigCourtship
Hit send too soon.

[Cam]

I guess it’s not in the making for at least one of the siblings to truly see the light and bolt. Jill takes steps here and there to untangle herself from the fold, but it’s too bad there isn’t one Duggar kid who up and totally rebels, running off and doing things on their own. Isn’t there anyone in this family who questions the status quo? Isn’t there an independent one among the brood who sees through the fundy smokescreen and says, wow, this is all total bullshit. Ain’t there at least one brave enough to chuck it all? 

When I was a teen, I rebelled. I saw the world differently from how my parents saw me in it. It wasn’t a fundy thing but dysfunctional in its own unique way.. And I wasn’t having my mother or father or older siblings run my life. My life was chaos there for a few years while I, an unprepared mess, figured things out on my own. Over time, my parents and I resolved our differences and patched things up, but breaking away from them for a time was a smart thing to do. So it’s hard for me to understand the type of personality that doesn’t rebel against oppression. 

[Coconut Flan]

I think if/when TLC finally cuts the Duggars loose and Jim Bob and the kids know it's final, we'll see more definite changes.  Especially if Jim Bob wastes a lot of money trying to save Josh from the consequences of his actions and JB doesn't have the money to spread around, there will be more and more lines drawn by the other kids.  

[Vivi_music]

On 5/18/2021 at 11:05 PM, Cam said:

When I was a teen, I rebelled. I saw the world differently from how my parents saw me in it. It wasn’t a fundy thing but dysfunctional in its own unique way.. And I wasn’t having my mother or father or older siblings run my life. My life was chaos there for a few years while I, an unprepared mess, figured things out on my own. Over time, my parents and I resolved our differences and patched things up, but breaking away from them for a time was a smart thing to do. So it’s hard for me to understand the type of personality that doesn’t rebel against oppression. 

It has been hinted that some of the Duggar children did question their upbringing. At her wedding rehearsal, Joy mentionned she had a hard time adopting her parent's faith as her own, and mentionned that Joseph helped her see the good in their belief (or something of the sort. I'm paraphrasing here.) To me, it at least indicates that in Joy's mind, at one point, she did question things. Maybe a little voice inside her head was indeed telling her that the fundie lifestyle was maybe not for her. But of course, that little doubting voice was shut down and she was forced back in the fold.

I also remember Jim Bob and Michelle saying Jessa had a very strong-willed personnality growing up. They mentionned that being strong-willed wasn't necessarily a bad thing, because once you were able to convince her to a cause, she'd be defending it until the end. Something in their statement makes me think JB and M knew Jessa could become rebellious, but actively made sure to endoctrinate her as much as possible.

I think this shows that some of Duggars children are able to at least question things. I also feel like the more convinced members of the family are able to see when someone is mentally starting to doubt and are actively shutting down that any kind of ''mental rebellion''.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, Vivi_music said:

It has been hinted that some of the Duggar children did question their upbringing. At her wedding rehearsal, Joy mentionned she had a hard time adopting her parent's faith as her own, and mentionned that Joseph helped her see the good in their belief (or something of the sort. I'm paraphrasing here.) To me, it at least indicates that in Joy's mind, at one point, she did question things. Maybe a little voice inside her head was indeed telling her that the fundie lifestyle was maybe not for her. But of course, that little doubting voice was shut down and she was forced back in the fold.

I also remember Jim Bob and Michelle saying Jessa had a very strong-willed personnality growing up. They mentionned that being strong-willed wasn't necessarily a bad thing, because once you were able to convince her to a cause, she'd be defending it until the end. Something in their statement makes me think JB and M knew Jessa could become rebellious, but actively made sure to endoctrinate her as much as possible.

I think this shows that some of Duggars children are able to at least question things. I also feel like the more convinced members of the family are able to see when someone is mentally starting to doubt and are actively shutting down that any kind of ''mental rebellion''.

There was a very dangerous "therapy" modality very popular in the late 70s-80's at least with treating adolescents which involved breaking someone down completely and then once you've stripped them of all defense mechanisms, defiance, their will, and critical thought* then you can be built back up into the person you were meant to be, by which they mean the person whose behavior and personality is acceptable to tptb.   It's deliberate and systemic brainwashing.  

I doubt JB and M would apply specific psychotherapies deliberately, but the goal was the same and I bet many of the same techniques were used such as humiliation, shunning, refusal to consider the defiant child's point of view.  Some of the ways they handled Josh with the molestation is very similar....the hard labor, no contact with anyone for long periods of time, head shaving, and conversely restricting privacy.

There is a generation of people who carry the scars of this type of "therapy" for their entire lives.  IME the people who were able to assimilate and tow the party line had a much easier time than those who couldn't.  And those who could were not only lauded for it, but put in charge of others as peer reinforcement.

*They don't say the critical thought part out loud, but it's absolutely there.

Again - I'm not saying they deliberately set out to follow any particular plan besides Gothard, but so much of Gothard's stuff is eerily reminiscent of that type of "therapeutic treatment".  Someone smarter than JB and M knew what they were doing when they crafted their evil system.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Attack_therapy

FYI some of the boarding schools that employed this type of "therapy" are listed as cults in cult awareness organizations.  The damage they have wrought is astounding.

Edited May 20, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy
ETA scare quotes around therapy - because it isn't in anything but name

[ADoyle90815]

25 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

There was a very dangerous therapy modality very popular in the late 70s-80's at least with treating adolescents which involved breaking someone down completely and then once you've stripped them of all defense mechanisms, defiance, their will, and critical thought* then you can be built back up into the person you were meant to be, by which they mean the person whose behavior and personality is acceptable to tptb.   It's deliberate and systemic brainwashing. 

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Attack_therapy

FYI some of the boarding schools that employed this type of therapy are listed as cults in cult awareness organizations.  The damage they have wrought is astounding.

Teenagers have died at those "schools" because the "therapy" is basically abuse.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 hours ago, ADoyle90815 said:

Teenagers have died at those "schools" because the "therapy" is basically abuse.

Yes.  And some of the "therapeutic treatment" is what would absolutely be considered is sexual assault, obvious to anyone not indoctrinated.   You don't become an alumi of one of those schools...you end up a victim or a survivor.  Or, often, a hybrid of both.  

Sometimes I wonder if there are any other survivors of these schools here.  In the past I've read message boards and such where former "students" would post about it but I can't handle the apologists and the minimizers.  And by can't handle I don't mean it upsets me, I mean it hits me in a core place that always results in flashbacks and nightmares that are actually life disrupting as well as affecting me physically.  And yes, I know that's an extreme response to people disagreeing on the internet, but it's what it is.

It sucks because sometimes I think it would be so nice to talk with someone who went through it, but the minimizers and apologists make my freeze/flight response kick in involuntarily.  

I never thought about it before, but in typing this I think that's why I am so pedantic sometimes pushing back against the humpers even though I know it won't change their mind.  In case some recovering fundy comes by and is hurt by the humping I want them to also see posts refuting it.  I just realized now typing this that this may be in response to my own intolerance of apologists when it comes to my niche....issues.  

If anyone else went through one of those schools and ever wants to talk my PM box is always open.  

Sorry - I'll stop navel gazing in public now! 

Edited May 20, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy
ETA personal nonsense I'll immediately regret posting

[fundiewatch]

@HerNameIsBuffy the “troubled teen” industry is horrific. Have you read Help At Any Cost by Maia Szalavitz? It’s the best I’ve read on the subject. I’m a social worker now, but prior to grad school I worked for just a few months at a place that felt approaching to this sort of place. I remember thinking my god these kids are being robbed of their childhoods, and they largely have family issues and are smoking too much pot. I’d had an eating disorder growing up and my family didn’t know to get help, but I saw girls in there who were just struggling, trauma histories, and our approach is to take away all trappings of a home life? Gah. Sending support to you. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

22 minutes ago, fundiewatch said:

@HerNameIsBuffy the “troubled teen” industry is horrific. Have you read Help At Any Cost by Maia Szalavitz? It’s the best I’ve read on the subject. I’m a social worker now, but prior to grad school I worked for just a few months at a place that felt approaching to this sort of place. I remember thinking my god these kids are being robbed of their childhoods, and they largely have family issues and are smoking too much pot. I’d had an eating disorder growing up and my family didn’t know to get help, but I saw girls in there who were just struggling, trauma histories, and our approach is to take away all trappings of a home life? Gah. Sending support to you. 

I haven't but just googled and bookmarked it.  I have to tread very carefully in what I read about this subject, but I will try to read this one as she is clear she's not "both sides have very fine people" kind of person.  Thanks for the recommendation.

And yep, the vast majority of people were like me, family issues, some recreational drug use and skipping class, an eating disorder.  We're not talking about Smuggar kind of troubled teen for the most part, we're talking about kids who needed some help getting back on track - who might not have even needed that if their families were more functional to begin with.  

There are millions of kids who went in with fixable issues and came out with lifelong PTSD.  Better than the kids who didn't make it out at all, though, either from the abuse, ODs, or suicide.  And for the apologists it's always the same...well what do you expect from a group of kids like that?  For them it's never about the abuse.  And even those of us who go on to live somewhat functional adult lives....something as innocuous as hearing my then 10 year old say they wish they could go to boarding school because Hogwarts left me unable to breathe and mentally froze for a minute and when I kind of came back into my head I was trembling and that poor kid had no idea why I was hugging him with such ferocity swearing I would never send him away.  Sorry kiddo...mommy trauma...no Hogwarts for you!

Sorry everyone - I'll stop thread drifting this into the abyss.  

Thank you for being a social worker.  I know it's often a thankless job but to the people you help it's lifechanging.  

 

 

[Cam]

Buffy, I don’t know your history, but if you don’t mind my asking, are you saying you were in a school like that, or in a fundy lifestyle or other type cult? 

May I just say that yesterday I read up on the Gothard guy. I knew nothing of his cult-like church organization or his scandal(s), but seeing him referenced here often, I wanted to learn more. 

After reading some, including one article that connected the dots to him and the Duggars and the Josh scandal, I understand much better where you are coming from in your “push back against humpers.” Because I never knew all that background. And it is a sick cult. I think the average person watching the Duggars on TLC don’t know those connections. It really would be a good time for some network like Netflix to produce a documentary explaining clearly how all those pieces fit together, how TLC exploits it for money and how horrid the fundy lifestyle it really is. Because TLC wraps up their shit with a pretty little baby shower bow, and many of us are clueless about the underlying realities. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, Cam said:

Buffy, I don’t know your history, but if you don’t mind my asking, are you saying you were in a school like that, or in a fundy lifestyle or other type cult? 

May I just say that yesterday I read up on the Gothard guy. I knew nothing of his cult-like church organization or his scandal(s), but seeing him referenced here often, I wanted to learn more. 

After reading some, including one article that connected the dots to him and the Duggars and the Josh scandal, I understand much better where you are coming from in your “push back against humpers.” Because I never knew all that background. And it is a sick cult. I think the average person watching the Duggars on TLC don’t know those connections. It really would be a good time for some network like Netflix to produce a documentary explaining clearly how all those pieces fit together, how TLC exploits it for money and how horrid the fundy lifestyle it really is. Because TLC wraps up their shit with a pretty little baby shower bow, and many of us are clueless about the underlying realities. 

I went to a "therapeutic boarding school" which has been listed on the cult awareness network for decades.  It's now closed due to the state finally charging child abuse among other things and 

Quote

"an environment that endangers the life, health, and safety of children enrolled."

My mom went fundy lite as a kid and I have some lingering weird religious guilt, but I don't have trauma from that or anything.  

My school wasn't religious, but I see a lot of similarities between Gothard's methods and the ones from my school.  Differences too to be sure, but enough that I feel personally invested in dispelling the squeaky clean image that TLC and Up put out there showcasing Duggars and Bates as wholesome quirky families while hiding the brainwashing and sexual, physical, and mental abuse.  I guess it's my proxy in a way, seeing people here stick up for the kids and call this shit out does my cynical old heart good.  But removed enough from my experience that I can read about it without triggering my own flashbacks and nightmares.  

Quote

Because TLC wraps up their shit with a pretty little baby shower bow, and many of us are clueless about the underlying realities. 

You are absolutely right and that's why I think it's important for people to see behind the curtain.  Because it absolutely does look shiny on the surface and they have no idea what level of manipulation and mind control goes into getting that many kids to be that compliant for that long.  Just like sending your kid to these kind of boarding schools....looks shiny on the surface.  A semester in Europe, beautiful campus, gifted kids working in small classes at their own accelerated pace....famous people, powerful people, and ambassadors send their kids there!  Kids will go to school with others from some of the "best" (read wealthy) families from all over the country.  All 100% true.  On the surface sure looks like parents have to be so great to spend so much money to give their kids that kind of opportunity.  Very shiny on the surface but the truth they leave out is what nightmares are made of. 

[MamaJunebug]

4 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

There was a very dangerous "therapy" modality very popular in the late 70s-80's at least with treating adolescents which involved breaking someone down completely and then once you've stripped them of all defense mechanisms, defiance, their will, and critical thought* then you can be built back up into the person you were meant to be, by which they mean the person whose behavior and personality is acceptable to tptb.   It's deliberate and systemic brainwashing.  

I’ve heard it said of (at least old-time) military instructors that their basic training is meant to break down the recruit and build them up again as a soldier (killer, warrior).

Nothing new, but so disturbing nonetheless. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, MamaJunebug said:

I’ve heard it said of (at least old-time) military instructors that their basic training is meant to break down the recruit and build them up again as a soldier (killer, warrior).

Nothing new, but so disturbing nonetheless. 

As long as it's effective people will keep doing it.  I would be absolutely fascinated to read a study about what differentiates the people for whom this approach works from those for whom it does not.  Being intimately acquainted with both types I know there are kool-aid drinkers who are happy to assimilate, consider it a good thing, and never give any indication they've ever wondered who they would be if not for the indoctrination.  

I totally understand why people fake it, go along with it, live in denial and try not to think about it....but the people who embrace the cult and don't understand why others don't see it as the one true way just fascinate me.  It has to fill a need....but we all have the need for belonging and acceptance especially from our families as kids.  If anyone has the answer I hope you share!

 

[Nashville92]

So there's a thread on Duggar Snark where a user said her cousin saw Jer out with a girl he appeared to be courting.  I'd take it with a grain of salt as they have no pics and anyone could post that but it wouldn't shock me if they were trying to keep things more private.  The user said she'd show her cousin a picture of Hannah Wiseman and see if its her 

[Italiangirl]

Update on that Reddit post, the user has posted a convoy with her cousin and she (the cousin) is 90% sure that the girl was Hannah and they seem to be unchaperoned. So when should we wait for an announcement? Around the start of the process of the one who has to not be nominated? Or after the wedding? Will they announce first or will we have a Jana announcement first?