Joy & Austin 32: Living the Fundie Dream with Rifles, RVs & Babies

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, imokit said:

She alone of the sisters was in court every day

No she wasn't.  Austin was, she came for some of it toward the end but not  in the beginning.

Doesn't discount anything you're saying, what she heard was more than enough to make your supposition very plausible.

[SunnySide]

5 hours ago, viii said:

My friends kid didn’t really talk until she was 3. Now she’s 12 and we can hardly get a word in edgewise!

This reminds me of, well me. I had two sisters who were older than me and they just got me whatever I pointed at. I was finally forced to talk at preschool, and haven’t stopped since. 

4 hours ago, BensAllergies said:

I hope that Joy taking Gideon to speech therapy indicates she is willing to prioritize quality over quantity. I’m not saying that she will stop at 2 kids but maybe 5-6. Even with Jessa I don’t see her having more than 7.

I often wonder as the fundiehood goes into multiple generations how long will they sustain the massive families? By and large they do not work regular jobs in the way most people do. Some fundies believe in using social aid programs, but many do not. I know the Duggars are the rare exception being “fundies with money”. But we all have kind of assumed Jim Bob just hoards the earnings and distributes as he sees fit. So how many generations deep can a Fundie family really sustain a large number of children on school of the dining room table, possibly refusing any type of social aid whether it be for healthcare, food, or housing help, before it all just crumbles? Also: at some point along the line there’s got to be detractors. Not every single child born into Fundie life is going to buy into the idea of having a trillion children. 

[SassyPants]

11 minutes ago, SunnySide said:

This reminds me of, well me. I had two sisters who were older than me and they just got me whatever I pointed at. I was finally forced to talk at preschool, and haven’t stopped since. 

I often wonder as the fundiehood goes into multiple generations how long will they sustain the massive families? By and large they do not work regular jobs in the way most people do. Some fundies believe in using social aid programs, but many do not. I know the Duggars are the rare exception being “fundies with money”. But we all have kind of assumed Jim Bob just hoards the earnings and distributes as he sees fit. So how many generations deep can a Fundie family really sustain a large number of children on school of the dining room table, possibly refusing any type of social aid whether it be for healthcare, food, or housing help, before it all just crumbles? Also: at some point along the line there’s got to be detractors. Not every single child born into Fundie life is going to buy into the idea of having a trillion children. 

I seriously DOUBT that JB and M Duggar turned way government assistance when it came to paying for Josie’s NICU care. No way in hell they didn’t  take the money that is guaranteed to all infants born before a certainly gestation and/or below a certain weight. Paying for the kind of care that Josie required for the first couple of years of her life (NICU plus all follow up) can bankrupt (and J’Chelle is an expert on that term) most families. The Duggars have definitely taken government provided care. And I would bet Josh’s family will be on services too, if they aren’t already.

JB is definitely the kind of person who would deem others’ needs for assistance a handout, but his own personal need a hand up.

[just_ordinary]

19 hours ago, Travelfan said:

I never did any flash cards but I have taught letters to many 3 year olds. I was the 3 year old teacher at a daycare many years ago and then taught my own children as well. It’s best to make everything into a game. For letters you could make up a bingo type of game. Make several cards with random letters.  Give her one of the cards and put a mini M&M on each letter square and then show one letter at a time and tell her what the letter is and have her look for it on her card. Every time she has one of the letters she gets to eat the M&M on that square.  

Once she knows her capital letters well you can teach the lower case as well. For this take 52 index cards. Put capital letters on 26 and lower case on the other 26. Choose about 10 pairs at a time (20 cards) Put the lower case ones on the table spread out. Give her one capital letter at a time and help her find the “letter’s baby”  Basically matching the baby letter to their mommy letters

A few random other fun games…take a small poster board and divide into 100 squares. Number them 1-100. Put one small mini M&M on one of the squares and then you and the child count together with your fingers pointing to each square. Once you get to the number with the M&M they get to eat it.  Start off with low numbers in the teens or 20s and once she can count those well (with you counting along as well) start putting the candy on higher numbers. If you play this a few times a week your child should be able to count to and identify all numbers well before kindergarten. 
 

On another small poster board draw vertical and horizontal lines to make several squares.  Write start on the middle square. Give the child a small candy to put on start. Give directions like move up 2 squares, move right 3 squares, etc. eventually direct them back to the start square. Once they get back to start they get to eat the candy. This teaches right from left and simple counting. 

Why would anyone bribe children with sweets to learn the alphabet at that age and setting a problematic precedent for sweets, rewards and learning on top? 
That approach sounds pretty unhealthy to me. 
Most children between 2 and 6 have a phase of natural interests in letters, numbers, colours and shapes. Sometimes it’s strong, sometimes less obvious. If you catch one, there is no harm in seeing how far they can go. But often enough they more or less „miraculously“ start pointing them out at random times. It’s just vocabulary to express themselves and their thinking. That’s why talking to and with them and reading in many cases leads to a bigger vocabulary earlier. Doesn’t have to though. There are enough quiet children that know it all. And around age 6-8 the majority is on the same level anyway.
 

I think it’s way more important that they are able to use the descriptive words in language. So, if you are baking cookies together, they can ask for/hand you the star shaped cookie cutter or the blue jumper with the glitter triangles, the mug with the “X” on it because that’s their mug because their name starts with it on it and so on. They also tend to soak up information like this when they hear you say it and often remember quite a lot (only to say it back at great or not so great times). 
It seems the US educational system puts more pressure on parents in that regard for younger children. But if someone just pushes this (with questionable methods) just to have an “advanced” child or to keep up with a standard that is not really necessary to achieve - that’s just sad.

Edited February 21, 2022 by just_ordinary

[GuineaPigCourtship]

I remember my parents helping me if I was lagging behind - basic math, reading, etc - by setting some homework for me. A few sessions of that and I always figured it out just fine. They didn't push me too hard, just framed it as a fun game to do the math together or read some of my favorite story books together.

I would still read with them if I could. My mom and I would read to each other all the way until I left for college.

[Bad Wolf]

If I was just doing a small shop, I would have the kids help me to remember 5 or so items. They always loved being my reminders.

[SunnySide]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

I seriously DOUBT that JB and M Duggar turned way government assistance when it came to paying for Josie’s NICU care. No way in hell they didn’t  take the money that is guaranteed to all infants born before a certainly gestation and/or below a certain weight. Paying for the kind of care that Josie required for the first couple of years of her life (NICU plus all follow up) can bankrupt (and J’Chelle is an expert on that term) most families. The Duggars have definitely taken government provided care. And I would bet Josh’s family will be on services too, if they aren’t already.

JB is definitely the kind of person who would deem others’ needs for assistance a handout, but his own personal need a hand up.

I agree with you that the Duggars probably did take the NICU assistance, and that some fundies probably do use various forms of social aid. But my specific inquiry was more along the lines of “for the die hard families who refuse any type of help, how sustainable is Fundie life, and for how long?” 
 

JB and Michelle are some of the hugest Fundie hypocrites and I’m sure if pressed they would have some sort of double speak/horrible attitude to explain why them utilizing any form of social aid is totally okay but the other people who do it are taking advantage of the system. 

[feministxtian]

32 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

If I was just doing a small shop, I would have the kids help me to remember 5 or so items. They always loved being my reminders.

I was the evil mom. I'd make my middle school kids calculate sales taxes in their heads. The tax was 4.5% so I taught them how to calculate 1% and 10% in their heads and from there they could calculate any percentage. 

[Mama Mia]

2 hours ago, imokit said:

Anna is still on the baby train.  Josh managed to time scandal 1 & 2 to not interfere with Anna's baby schedule (M5 arrived bang on time post other scandals, M6 and M7 were on also when expected) .  The only reason Anna is going to be paused after M7 is because Josh is in jail and thus there will be a few years on inability.  Depending on Josh's sentence and if he doesn't decide to leave her after jail (which he might, he clearly doesn't believe the religious crap he spews), Anna will want M8 and M9.  It will depend on her fertility.

Jessa seems to be on the baby train.  As does Joe and Kendra.

Jinger and Jill have both admitted to birth control.  Josiah and JD also seem to be using it due to the timings of their 2nd child.  I don't think Abbie's announced a 2nd pregnancy yet, though there are rumours that Lauren is very pregnant now (there will be at least 2 years between 1 & 2).

 

Meanwhile since Gideon's birth, Joy has gone through hell.  She's had a still birth, which will have had to make her thing about future babies and would have affected her emotions with her pregnancy with Annabelle.  She's also sat through a Josh's trial.  She alone of the sisters was in court every day (I know Jill wasn't allowed as potential witness, but Jill's views were already changed pre trial).  She listened as a close family friend detailed the conversations about what happened in that house and to her and how her parents covered it up.  She went home every night to her own boy and girl children.  Things have changed for her since her marriage.

Austin's family clearly have no problem with birth control.

Honestly while I wouldn't be surprised if Joy had more children, I would be shocked if she had loads more and didn't control fertility in some way in the future.  She also already has one of each, so there's no need to try for girl/boy.

 

Guessing future Duggar offspring numbers and reasons for those numbers is one of my favorite procrastination games lol - it should be like a verrrryyyy long game betting pool. My current speculative  projections, of what they would like to have happen — subject always  to change: 

Anna - absolutely will go for more M’s if at all possible. Obviously dependent on Josh-u-a’s sentence. If he gets 10 yrs or less she’ll probably get 1 more. Maybe even 2 or 3. 

JD & Abbie - 1 more when Gracie is 3 ish ( give or take) Maybe one additional if her HG isn’t as severe and #2 is fairly easy. Probably barriers combined with natural family planning. But being very careful about it all and even considering vasectomy/tubal if they feel her health is at risk.

Jill - 1 more if she gets pregnant soon. 2 more fairly close together if the gap between 2 and 3 is more than 6 years. Careful barrier methods as she has stated. Possible random additional oops baby.

Jessa- between 6 and 8 total. I don’t think more than that, she’s almost 30 and they seem to co-sleep and keep the kids in with them a long time. I don’t think they’d go full-on, consistent use of BC — but avoiding when she’s most likely fertile, definitely. Maybe barrier methods when babies are little. But I think they will be the most casual - not really focused on either having a bunch or taking huge steps to prevent. 

Jinger/ Jeremy - Maybe 1 more. What ever birth control works, but eventually a tubal or vasectomy if she gets pregnant unintentionally.

Joe/Kendra - Most likely to hit mega numbers. Very young. Both come off very easy going.very religious. Built  in support from both sides of the family. The young girls seem to genuinely like Kendra, so are probably happy to go keep her company and play with toddlers. Her mom is young and also raising young kids. So lots of avenues for taking a break, not being isolated, which seems like a huge factor. Uncomplicated pregnancies and births so far. 

Josiah/ Lauren - people say she’s pregnant, so ok.  2 on their first marriages. 2 more for her on her 2nd. or maybe they’ve gotten more comfortable with each other and will stay together happily. What do I know? Definitely birth control though. 

Joy — #3 next year, maybe #4 a couple years after that and then no more unless there is an oops.  They are very outdoorsy and active, and like to go on couple trips. I can’t see them wanting to go camping with 10 kids, or trying to arrange childcare for that many.   If they get them all out of babyhood while Joy is still in her 20’s, and mostly grown by her early 40’s they can go happily adventuring together all the time.  Whatever birth control Austin can convince her is ok. 
 

I do think it’s likely that if any of them have a huge spacing - intentional or not- between children, that they’ll likely try for another baby close in age. 
 

No clue about the younger ones. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gottahavedembabies]

No she wasn't.  Austin was, she came for some of it toward the end but not  in the beginning.
Doesn't discount anything you're saying, what she heard was more than enough to make your supposition very plausible.

I took that to me that Joy alone was the only one of the Duggar sisters who came to the trial daily.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

8 hours ago, feministxtian said:

Jill probably is the one who understands it the most. She seems to be enjoying life with just her boys. I wouldn't be surprised to see her and Derick have maybe 2 more, looking for that elusive girl, but since the boys are getting older and more independent, they may decide to stay with just the 2. 

Jessa is J'shelle 2. She'll hit double digits, so will Kendra. JD and Abbie may have one more. Jinger may have one or two more, IF it fits Jeremee's plans. The little girls might go procreation crazy mostly because they only remember the TTH, the $$ and how the older ones started marrying and leaving. But, then again, maybe not. Time will tell. 

I think the younger kids, Jackson on down might do the big families. Between getting married younger because no more TLC gravy train and their memories being the good times- TV cameras, money, sister moms, they may not realize how hard 19 is.

[BensAllergies]

11 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

OT but everytime I see your avatar I think it's Alice from the Brady Bunch until my eyes focus and I can see it's Ben.

Anyone else see the resemblance?   Probably just me  

It’s not too blurry on mobile (which I use 90% of the time), but on a regular web browser my avatar is very blurry. I don’t know how to fix it but admittedly haven’t really cared enough to troubleshoot.

[Travelfan]

6 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

Why would anyone bribe children with sweets to learn the alphabet at that age and setting a problematic precedent for sweets, rewards and learning on top? 
That approach sounds pretty unhealthy to me. 
Most children between 2 and 6 have a phase of natural interests in letters, numbers, colours and shapes. Sometimes it’s strong, sometimes less obvious. If you catch one, there is no harm in seeing how far they can go. But often enough they more or less „miraculously“ start pointing them out at random times. It’s just vocabulary to express themselves and their thinking. That’s why talking to and with them and reading in many cases leads to a bigger vocabulary earlier. Doesn’t have to though. There are enough quiet children that know it all. And around age 6-8 the majority is on the same level anyway.
 

I think it’s way more important that they are able to use the descriptive words in language. So, if you are baking cookies together, they can ask for/hand you the star shaped cookie cutter or the blue jumper with the glitter triangles, the mug with the “X” on it because that’s their mug because their name starts with it on it and so on. They also tend to soak up information like this when they hear you say it and often remember quite a lot (only to say it back at great or not so great times). 
It seems the US educational system puts more pressure on parents in that regard for younger children. But if someone just pushes this (with questionable methods) just to have an “advanced” child or to keep up with a standard that is not really necessary to achieve - that’s just sad.

Oh brother, my daughter is almost 20 now and has no problematic precedent for sweets…what she did get was a perfect 36 on the reading section of the ACT. I gave a few examples of some fun games that can be played to teach some basic fundamentals. My kids spent the majority of their time playing and exploring and being creative. I had several games that we rotated and spent a few minutes each day playing. Seriously I try to give someone a bit of advice of some fun creative ways to make learning more interesting and of course there has to be negativity 🙄 I’ve been a nanny for several years to multiple children and the parents are always grateful that I spend a bit of the day on some educational activities. Never in real life have my methods been called “unhealthy”  

[Expectopatronus]

8 hours ago, Travelfan said:

Oh brother, my daughter is almost 20 now and has no problematic precedent for sweets…what she did get was a perfect 36 on the reading section of the ACT. I gave a few examples of some fun games that can be played to teach some basic fundamentals. My kids spent the majority of their time playing and exploring and being creative. I had several games that we rotated and spent a few minutes each day playing. Seriously I try to give someone a bit of advice of some fun creative ways to make learning more interesting and of course there has to be negativity 🙄 I’ve been a nanny for several years to multiple children and the parents are always grateful that I spend a bit of the day on some educational activities. Never in real life have my methods been called “unhealthy”  

I used chips and sweets in a stock market stimulation when teaching the crash of the stock market to grade six social studies kids, candy as rewards for the house that had the most points (points were earned by speaking in French, volunteering to read, answering questions ** even the wrong answer got points because hey, effort) etc. It’s an ongoing debate but personally, I say do what works. 

[justoneoftwo]

On 2/21/2022 at 5:59 AM, Expectopatronus said:

My 26 month old isn’t talking yet. She responds to both English and French , loves books but has very few words. I requested a referral to a speech therapist but haven’t heard anything yet. I’m worried. She’s highly empathetic, talks and sings in her own language and figures things out so I don’t think she has cognitive delays but I am worried. 

My now 5 year old was like this. He now never stops talking and started, with almost no baby talk 2 days before the evaluation.  Good for you for fitting one, but try not to worry too much. 

[Meggo]

18 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

 

Josiah/ Lauren - people say she’s pregnant, so ok.  2 on their first marriages. 2 more for her on her 2nd. or maybe they’ve gotten more comfortable with each other and will stay together happily. What do I know? Definitely birth control though. 

On their first marriage? Do you mean they'll split?

[Grace]

I believe there is some rule (at least in Arkansas) 30, 60 or 90 days where, if a child is hospitalized from birth for that long they automatically are enrolled in Medicaid and maybe even social security but that SS benefit is like $30 a month while in the hospital. I don't think the Duggars could have declined it for Josie even if they wanted to. The hospital will then bill both Medicaid and the parents' insurance and everything gets covered pretty much 100%

Edited February 22, 2022 by Grace

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, Meggo said:

On their first marriage? Do you mean they'll split?

Yes. I think they are the most likely. He seemed absolutely miserable and snappy in their courting episodes. And she doesn’t seem like a woman who puts up with a lot of bullsh*t.  Maybe they’ve grown on each other, but I don’t peg them as a forever match. Which is fine.  

Edited February 22, 2022 by Mama Mia

[shesinsane]

On 2/21/2022 at 3:20 PM, imokit said:

Anna is still on the baby train.  Josh managed to time scandal 1 & 2 to not interfere with Anna's baby schedule (M5 arrived bang on time post other scandals, M6 and M7 were on also when expected) .  The only reason Anna is going to be paused after M7 is because Josh is in jail and thus there will be a few years on inability.  Depending on Josh's sentence and if he doesn't decide to leave her after jail (which he might, he clearly doesn't believe the religious crap he spews), Anna will want M8 and M9.  It will depend on her fertility.

[snip]

 

Poor M8 or M9. How does one explain you have all those brothers and sisters so close in age to one another, except for those 5* years between Madyson and Manumission Duggar. 

*hopefully to be replaced with a higher number April 5.

[AussieKrissy]

21 hours ago, BensAllergies said:

It’s not too blurry on mobile (which I use 90% of the time), but on a regular web browser my avatar is very blurry. I don’t know how to fix it but admittedly haven’t really cared enough to troubleshoot.

I see the Alice resemblance now it’s mentioned. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

22 hours ago, BensAllergies said:

It’s not too blurry on mobile (which I use 90% of the time), but on a regular web browser my avatar is very blurry. I don’t know how to fix it but admittedly haven’t really cared enough to troubleshoot.

I wasn't criticizing, I just thought it was funny.  I bet those aren't two people who are often mistaken for each other in other contexts.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

4 hours ago, shesinsane said:

Manumission Duggar

LOL!

[MamaJunebug]

On 2/20/2022 at 7:50 PM, Travelfan said:

Give the child a small candy to put on start.

In my nest, it would be a savory (a Cheez-it or a Goldfish cracker) instead of an M&M, or a star they could paste onto a Big Kid Award of some nature or a marble to put in a jar. When the award us covered with stars or the Jarvis full, they get a big reward (to be identified later bcz right now it’s past my bedtime).

But I love these ideas a lot!  Now … a larval-stage JB to teach, where can I find one???? Yep, I’m in the “no grands yet” stage! . 😄 

Edited February 23, 2022 by MamaJunebug

[Sullie06]

I didn't really talk until I was around 3. I would make sounds and my Mom knew what they meant but being a first time Mom, she didn't think anything of it. When I started Pre-K they were concerned. Turned out, it was my hearing. I had so many ear infections as a toddler, and my old school doctor did not believe in ear tubes, that my hearing was permanently damaged. It was so muffled that I was emulating what I heard which was more sounds than words.  I did go to speech to get up and running. Now that I'm almost 40 I've found I have a very hard time with my hearing. I can't hear certain voice tones well (mostly men) and watch the TV and play the radio so loudly. I think it's time to see an ENT and maybe look into a hearing aide. 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Sullie06

[GiggleOfGirls]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:44 PM, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I think the younger kids, Jackson on down might do the big families. Between getting married younger because no more TLC gravy train and their memories being the good times- TV cameras, money, sister moms, they may not realize how hard 19 is.

I think this is very possible. The younger girls also haven’t had to raise/be sister-moms to a bajillion younger siblings.

 

Being a sister-aunt wouldn’t quite be the same as being a sister-mom so even if the youngest girls help out a lot at older siblings’ houses (as I expect they do), they still might not understand how much work a huge family would be. 
 

Those big age gaps (even when filled with other children) make a huge difference in what sort of family a child grows up in.
 

As the oldest child (by a large age gap, but only of 4 children total) I remember living in small apartments and houses when I was younger. My siblings did not. They grew up always having cable TV from late elementary school or middle school, I had cable for 6 months in elementary school because it came with one of our rental houses. I got to move dozens of times while my siblings got to remember moving maybe 5-7 times and had a rather large house they consider that they “grew up in.”