Michaela & Brandon 6: She Is an LPN and He Is Boring.....

[QuiverFullofBooks]

The infertile are not obligated to take on other peoples’ children. I get the point about abortion, though.

Edited May 4, 2022 by QuiverFullofBooks
More concise/weird spacing

[Bluebirdbluebell]

2 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

The infertile are not obligated to take on other peoples’ children. I get the point about abortion, though.

I agree with you. I think people think she would be happier if she adopted a child. And then yes there's also the "pro-life" part where it's consistent with her beliefs that child should be cared for.

I've always seen Michael as a female Steve Maxwell.

Didn't Michael at one point definite physically punishing kids? As the oldest sister mom, I wouldn't be surprised if she did some of the blanket training for her younger siblings. 

[Jackie3]

16 hours ago, HereticHick said:

 

Enough with the fertility treatments. Michaela is a trained nurse and has a life time of childrearing experience. She should put her time & money into taking care of unwanted children.

Oh God. Children available for adoption generally aren’t “unwanted.” Adoption is far more complex than that. There are economic and societal reasons that children become available for adoption. Often their birthparents want very much to keep them.

15 hours ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

They should be placed somewhere that believes in therapy and gentle approaches. Same applies to babies who are adopted at birth, both because there can be stuff to unpack with adoption even in the best of situations and because nobody should hit a baby.

You are assuming these wonderful homes exist. Sometimes the choice is a fundie family or multiple foster homes.

I”m not a fan of fundie adoption. But there aren’t a ton of these fantasy homes with white picket fences and “gentle parenting” advocates. Sometimes there are no good choices. 

11 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

The infertile are not obligated to take on other peoples’ children. 

“Take on” another person’s child? Adopting a child is a privilege.

[Jrodseyeliner]

19 hours ago, HereticHick said:

I used to feel sorry for Brandon and Michaela wanting to have a child so badly.  But this week, no more. If they really want to follow the teaching of Christ and the will of God, they would be saying "Well, apparently isn't is the will of God for us to have biological children. And since we believe women should be forced to give birth and children are sacred, we are going to open our home to adoption and/or fostering"

Enough with the fertility treatments. Michaela is a trained nurse and has a life time of childrearing experience. She should put her time & money into taking care of unwanted children.

She may have a nursing degree, but is she trained as in learning by working just shifts in a hospital doing shift work??  I don’t really consider her a trained nurse until she is using her degree. 
Hapoy to be proven wrong though. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 hours ago, Jrodseyeliner said:

She may have a nursing degree, but is she trained as in learning by working just shifts in a hospital doing shift work??  I don’t really consider her a trained nurse until she is using her degree. 
Hapoy to be proven wrong though. 

I wonder where she did her practical hours while she was in college. Don’t all nursing degrees require that? A certain number of hours working in a hospital or dr office learning on the job stuff before they can Graduate?

[Jackie3]

6 hours ago, Jrodseyeliner said:

 I don’t really consider her a trained nurse until she is using her degree. 
 

The state of Tennessee does, though, which is probably what matter to her lol.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Jackie3

[ModestisHottest]

Adoptee Tiktok creators started appearing on my For You Page recently and my mind has been blown wide open.  Adoption is...very complicated.  Much more so than I ever realized.  It's definitely not the answer to infertility as I once thought. (Not that anyone here is saying that but I definitely thought that for way too long.)

[Jackie3]

4 hours ago, ModestisHottest said:

Adoptee Tiktok creators started appearing on my For You Page recently and my mind has been blown wide open.  Adoption is...very complicated.  Much more so than I ever realized.  It's definitely not the answer to infertility as I once thought. (Not that anyone here is saying that but I definitely thought that for way too long.)

Adoption is definitely different than giving birth, since it involves loss for the adoptee (and the birthparent, of course, however much they want the adoption to go forward). It might also involve loss for the adoptive family (if they are infertile). Some adoptees feel and express more grief and pain than others. Some express a desire to know their birth families, some don't.

As a result, I wouldn't judge adoption by one tiktocker. Some adoptees are very happy they were adopted and had very happy childhoods in their adoptive homes.

This is particularly true for those experienced abuse or trauma in their birth home. Bear in mind, most adoptions in the US involve older children, not infants. 

International adoptees who can remember their life in an orphanage also are often quite happy they were adopted. I know kids who were adopted international at 8 and 10 who said they hoped for years to be adopted.  I mean, wouldn't you, if you were in an orphanage? Even the best ones cannot meet all a child's needs.

It is pretty difficult to find the "perfect" adoptive parent who will do everything right. And these children do need homes. A good-enough adoptive parent--one who tries to do the right thing--is often the best and most realistic answer. 

I've seen posts where people declare that so-and-so "shouldn't be adopting." These posters fail to see the flip side--that five-year old in foster care who  really needs a home. Obviously, abusive, narcissistic or racist people shouldn't be adopting.  But it's important to remember that a child who ISN"T adopted may end up in foster care, or may spend their life in an ill-funded orphanage. It's a tough situation.

 

[ModestisHottest]

2 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

Adoption is definitely different than giving birth, since it involves loss for the adoptee (and the birthparent, of course, however much they want the adoption to go forward). It might also involve loss for the adoptive family (if they are infertile). Some adoptees feel and express more grief and pain than others. Some express a desire to know their birth families, some don't.

As a result, I wouldn't judge adoption by one tiktocker. Some adoptees are very happy they were adopted and had very happy childhoods in their adoptive homes.

This is particularly true for those experienced abuse or trauma in their birth home. Bear in mind, most adoptions in the US involve older children, not infants. 

International adoptees who can remember their life in an orphanage also are often quite happy they were adopted. I know kids who were adopted international at 8 and 10 who said they hoped for years to be adopted.  I mean, wouldn't you, if you were in an orphanage? Even the best ones cannot meet all a child's needs.

It is pretty difficult to find the "perfect" adoptive parent who will do everything right. And these children do need homes. A good-enough adoptive parent--one who tries to do the right thing--is often the best and most realistic answer. 

I've seen posts where people declare that so-and-so "shouldn't be adopting." These posters fail to see the flip side--that five-year old in foster care who  really needs a home. Obviously, abusive, narcissistic or racist people shouldn't be adopting.  But it's important to remember that a child who ISN"T adopted may end up in foster care, or may spend their life in an ill-funded orphanage. It's a tough situation.

 

Definitely didn't mean to suggest all experiences were negative or that these tiktok creators' experiences can be applied to all situations. I totally agree that there is a wide range of experiences and I personally know adoptees who are happy to have been adopted.  I am really just expressing how shockingly ignorant I was about the way that the private adoption system works in the US and (I'm so embarrassed that I never thought about this) how if we simply supported pregnant people who were struggling there would probably be a lot few adoptions.  

[lumpentheologie]

4 hours ago, ModestisHottest said:

Definitely didn't mean to suggest all experiences were negative or that these tiktok creators' experiences can be applied to all situations. I totally agree that there is a wide range of experiences and I personally know adoptees who are happy to have been adopted.  I am really just expressing how shockingly ignorant I was about the way that the private adoption system works in the US and (I'm so embarrassed that I never thought about this) how if we simply supported pregnant people who were struggling there would probably be a lot few adoptions.  

I wouldn't blame yourself for being ignorant of this. It's only been relatively recently that people have realized that adoption, in itself, is traumatic. My brother is adopted and since my parents took him home from the hospital when he was born they thought it wouldn't be much of an issue, but it's actually still a major issue for him in his 30s. It's very, very common for adoptees to struggle with mental health, substance abuse, etc. 

It's horrifying to me that so many parents are forced to give up their children to adoption because they lack the financial resources to raise their kids. The state pays foster parents for the children they house, but won't pay those kids' actual parents the same amount of money to be able to keep them. And adoptive parents often pay $20k+ to adopt their children, when it would usually benefit the children a lot more if that money were given to their birth parents so they could stay with them. In a lot of ways adoption is just buying children, and it caters a lot more to the needs of adoptive parents than to the needs of the child (not to mention the birth parents). 

We should really be working to make adoption more rare. It's weird because there's so much cultural talk about abortion being traumatic but in my experience adoption is a lot more so. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by lumpentheologie

[Smash!]

I once followed a blog of a young woman who got pregnant by her boyfriend. She belonged to a church that only viewed children born into a marriage as the right way. Since marriage wasn‘t an option for this blogger she placed her child with a young family in an open adoption. The story was heartbreaking and she struggled very much in the years after. She placed her daughter because she believed (the church made her believe?) it was the best for her child but she very much wanted to keep her had she had been given the option.

It‘s so cruel when abortion opponents say instead of getting an abortion women should just place their child for adoption ignoring all the suffering for everyone involved.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I remember when I was young, I loved watching adoption story on TLC. I bought into the trope of this happy perfect family saving a kid. Then I somehow found myself on a forum about adoption in 2010 and my mind was blown. I thought everyone loved adoption. I was wrong. The anti adoption folks were extremely harsh. So at first I was turned off by them. But occasionally they made a really good point that made me think. Over time my mind was changed on adoption. And I saw how fucked up our society is that make infant adoption so common. A big reason is that our government isn’t doing enough to support these moms. I hate seeing women feel like they have to lean towards adoption just because of finances. I know there are many other reasons. But finances alone shouldn’t be a reason. We should support those moms the best we can so she can raise that child if she wants to even though she doesn’t feel financially stable enough. There are so many other problems with adoption I won’t even get into. Like the white saviors that go to other countries and all that. But I just want to say that adoption has never been a bunch of sunshine and roses in this country. 

[JDuggs]

I have a friend (late 50s) who was adopted by a very traditional Catholic couple. When she got pregnant at 17, her parents forbade her to give her baby up for adoption, but they would have been okay with an abortion. My friend kept her child, but she didn’t make him her priority when he was young. She would have been a much better mother if she had him ten years later. The boy’s dad mainly raised him (joint custody after they were briefly married) and she isn’t especially close to her son now 40 years later. He was the only child she had.

[libgirl2]

I have a best friend who is adopted. Growing up, the two girls next door were adopted. I have known my best friend for 43 years, the girls for about that long as well. In all honestly, none of the three have had any issues that I am remotely aware of. None have looked for their birth parents. My best friend almost did but that was to see if a condition she has is hereditary, which it wasn't.  I don't know the birth parent's circumstances, but I never saw any anguish on their parts. 

[Jackie3]

24 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I have a best friend who is adopted. Growing up, the two girls next door were adopted. I have known my best friend for 43 years, the girls for about that long as well. In all honestly, none of the three have had any issues that I am remotely aware of. None have looked for their birth parents. My best friend almost did but that was to see if a condition she has is hereditary, which it wasn't.  I don't know the birth parent's circumstances, but I never saw any anguish on their parts. 

Yes, it really varies. Though to be fair, identity issues are a very personal matter, and it's possible that your friends would have been  more comfortable sharing those thoughts with other adoptees. 

I don't think that looking for birthparents is a sign that there's a problem or unhappiness about the adoption. Some people need to find that piece of the puzzle and some don't. Best case scenario, the adoptive parents understand this and provide all the support and information they can. Open adoptions are much more common in the US nowadays and that is a really good thing.

[libgirl2]

4 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

Yes, it really varies. Though to be fair, identity issues are a very personal matter, and it's possible that your friends would have been  more comfortable sharing those thoughts with other adoptees. 

I don't think that looking for birthparents is a sign that there's a problem or unhappiness about the adoption. Some people need to find that piece of the puzzle and some don't. Best case scenario, the adoptive parents understand this and provide all the support and information they can. Open adoptions are much more common in the US nowadays and that is a really good thing.

I think it does vary. My best friend who does have a physical issue, might have thought why bother? "If they didn't want me, my adopted parents did despite not knowing what my limitations would be?" BTW, she was raised to not have limitations and is an awesome person. After all these years, I don't even see it anymore.  

[Jackie3]

8 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Like the white saviors that go to other countries and all that.

Certainly there are white saviors, who are quite offensive. But I've always wondered about people who are against international adoption altogether.

Basically, they are saying those foreign children (generally Brown or Black) should just stay in their orphanages, and not come to the US.  

That those kids somehow don't deserve the nurturing, education and support a stable family can provide.

Because if they're not adopted, most of those kids will spend their lives in orphanages, and some will not survive. Those who do may end up in abusive factories or prostitution or worse. 

If I were a child in a third-world orphanage, I'd surely choose an international adoption for myself. In fact, I'd be quite upset with rich US citizens who were saying I shouldn't be adopted, because my parents might not have exactly the right attitude. Who are these rich Americans to say I don't deserve medical care, nutrition, education and love?

People living comfortable, middle-class lives who declare that unknown children "should not be adopted". ... I dunno. I think they need to check their privilege and ask themselves THEY would want, if it were them.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Jackie3

[raayx01]

33 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

Certainly there are white saviors, who are quite offensive. But I've always wondered about people who are against international adoption altogether.

Basically, they are saying those foreign children (generally Brown or Black) should just stay in their orphanages, and not come to the US.  

That those kids somehow don't deserve the nurturing, education and support a stable family can provide.

Because if they're not adopted, most of those kids will spend their lives in orphanages, and some will not survive. Those who do may end up in abusive factories or prostitution or worse. 

If I were a child in a third-world orphanage, I'd surely choose an international adoption for myself. In fact, I'd be quite upset with rich US citizens who were saying I shouldn't be adopted, because my parents might not have exactly the right attitude. Who are these rich Americans to say I don't deserve medical care, nutrition, education and love?

People living comfortable, middle-class lives who declare that unknown children "should not be adopted". ... I dunno. I think they need to check their privilege and ask themselves THEY would want, if it were them.

I'm not against international adoption, but their are 100,000 kids in foster care in the U.S. I think we should take care of our own before we go overseaes. If I ever choose to adopt I would adopt within the US most likely a foster to adopt situation.

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

I have a best friend who is adopted. Growing up, the two girls next door were adopted. I have known my best friend for 43 years, the girls for about that long as well. In all honestly, none of the three have had any issues that I am remotely aware of. None have looked for their birth parents. My best friend almost did but that was to see if a condition she has is hereditary, which it wasn't.  I don't know the birth parent's circumstances, but I never saw any anguish on their parts. 

I have a very close friend who has 2 adopted siblings and one sibling has major issues with being adopted. Because the family was a mix of bio kids and adopted kids. One of the adopted kids felt the parents favored the bio kids. I honestly don’t know if that happened. But just knowing he wasn’t genetically related and some of the other kids were made him very insecure in his relationship with his parents. I always worry when fundies mix kids who are adopted it’s kids that are bio. I would hate for the adopted kid to feel like the bio kids are preferred. It’s probably a natural feeling and should be addressed. But I could imagine fundies just ignoring those kinds of feelings and telling the kid he should be grateful they adopted them. 
ETA: this is why I hope Kristin from Girl Defined doesn’t have any bio kids now that she’s adopted two older boys from Ukraine. I could see a new bio baby getting insane amounts of attention and the boys feeling left out. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[SassyPants]

I know of a family (religious) who had several bio kids, and per the mom “the Lord put it on her heart to adopt.” They only wanted a Caucasian, male, American child. I thought, never going to happen, right. Anyhow, within a year, a birth mom selected their family and they adopted an American, Caucasian, male child. I was shocked. I had no idea that you could request a certain sex.  Does the Lord put conditions on your heart when it comes to adoption? I just think that’s wrong.

[marmalade]

7 hours ago, JDuggs said:

I have a friend (late 50s) who was adopted by a very traditional Catholic couple. When she got pregnant at 17, her parents forbade her to give her baby up for adoption, but they would have been okay with an abortion. My friend kept her child, but she didn’t make him her priority when he was young. She would have been a much better mother if she had him ten years later. The boy’s dad mainly raised him (joint custody after they were briefly married) and she isn’t especially close to her son now 40 years later. He was the only child she had.

You just described my BFF in high school. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I know of a family (religious) who had several bio kids, and per the mom “the Lord put it on her heart to adopt.” They only wanted a Caucasian, male, American child. I thought, never going to happen, right. Anyhow, within a year, a birth mom selected their family and they adopted an American, Caucasian, male child. I was shocked. I had no idea that you could request a certain sex.  Does the Lord put conditions on your heart when it comes to adoption? I just think that’s wrong.

I think most people don’t put those restrictions on their potential adoptions because it could mean a years long wait. But you probably can specify in some agencies. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[Jackie3]

7 hours ago, raayx01 said:

I'm not against international adoption, but their are 100,000 kids in foster care in the U.S. I think we should take care of our own before we go overseaes. If I ever choose to adopt I would adopt within the US most likely a foster to adopt situation.

So you haven't done it, but you've decided what others should do?  Interesting.

Kids are kids, imo, wherever they live. This "take care of your own" attitude seems xenophobic.  Children are children, no matter what border they live between.

"Foster to adopt" situations aren't as simple as they seem. In fact, working with DCYF can be incredibly complicated and discouraging. That's why people choose to avoid DCYF.  Plus, you are often dealing with kids with severe emotional problems, physical problems (fetal alcohol system, children born addicted, etc) and RAD. Some families can deal with that, others cannot. Of course, there are good foster-to-adopt situations, but those are generally the lucky ones.

It's nice that you know what other people should do. It's nice you think US kids should be adopted "first", before all those foreigners.  Personally, I let families do what they think is best, without imposing my own views on their actions. That's likely to create the most successful family.

I know a family who recently adopted a vision-impaired little girl from a third world country. What a happy and delightful kid! I'm glad her parents didn't listen to the opinions of others who felt they knew what was best for that family, especially since they'd done nothing themselves to help ANY child.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Jackie3

[Jackie3]

6 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I know of a family (religious) who had several bio kids, and per the mom “the Lord put it on her heart to adopt.” They only wanted a Caucasian, male, American child. I thought, never going to happen, right. Anyhow, within a year, a birth mom selected their family and they adopted an American, Caucasian, male child. I was shocked. I had no idea that you could request a certain sex.  Does the Lord put conditions on your heart when it comes to adoption? I just think that’s wrong.

There's a child in a home where he is wanted. I think you'd be happy for that kid.

Instead of tsk-tsking, how about being a support to that family?  Sounds like you hoped they wouldn't get to adopt all,  because they had the nerve to be "too picky." 

Why couldn't they specify the gender? Do you think adoptive families should take what they can get? How does that benefit anyone? The point is to do what's best for the kid. 

Most agencies let you specify race, too, and the type of special needs you can handle. Everything is done to maximize the chance of success for the family.

If a family doesn't want to be a transracial one, for example, they dont' have to be. It does come with added complications and work (exposing a child to their culture, helping them with identity issues) and some families just don't want that. Similarly, some families don't want a child with chronic illness. Forcing them to adopt one (if that were even possible) would not help the child. I mean, have you adopted a special needs child? If not, then you probably don't want these issues either. 

Adoptive families are going to have  personal needs and limitations, just like anyone else. If you deny this ("Take what you are given!") fewer people will apply to adopt.  How would that help kids? 

If this family want a boy, who does it benefit to force a girl on them? Even if an agency tried to do this, who would it benefit? The little girl?

"You'll take what you get" is not a good way to start a successful adoption experience, which is already fraught with uncertainty.  It might be better to maximize the chances of success for the entire triad.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Jackie3

[indianabones]

7 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I know of a family (religious) who had several bio kids, and per the mom “the Lord put it on her heart to adopt.” They only wanted a Caucasian, male, American child. I thought, never going to happen, right. Anyhow, within a year, a birth mom selected their family and they adopted an American, Caucasian, male child. I was shocked. I had no idea that you could request a certain sex.  Does the Lord put conditions on your heart when it comes to adoption? I just think that’s wrong.

Sounds like a good time to revisit the Lazy Lyndsie posts! She decided that she wanted to adopt a baby girl and name her Aubrey and (eventually) made it happen!