Michaela & Brandon 6: She Is an LPN and He Is Boring.....

[CaptainFunderpants]

1 hour ago, just_ordinary said:

I think after two years and many destroyed hopes we all have reached a breaking point. Soon enough we will see government and ethical advisor boards make difficult decisions. Either make the vaccine mandatory (not new in many countries that’s basically how we got rid of polio. No one asked then either.) or not, but at one point the measures we take now for stopping it spreading even in countries with a high vaccination + booster rate are more harmful to a society and it’s individuals long term. The mental strain we put on people, the reduced treatment capacities for all sorts of illnesses, burned out health care workers, complete professions being put on hold- meaning the employees not being able to provide sufficient health care, food and housing to their families + the mental and emotional strain, children being left behind in education and all of them kind of un-learning school as an environment and it’s hidden curriculums, the economic situation of countries and individuals that does correlate with physical and mental health as well …. All this will catch up with is in the future and it will have lingering negative effects. 
And while I do have a problem with anti-vaxxers  in general - at this point (IN MY POV) it’s less the anti-vaxxers in rich/western countries. They are not the reason for the new variants that our vaccinations sadly are less and less effective for. Delta and Omikron didn’t mutate in the US, Israel or Europe. No, we have failed to provide the vaccine in a double dosage quickly everywhere to make sure that poorer countries, countries with suboptimal distribution strategies or capacities and where many people life extremely close together and the chances to isolate and the access to health care and hygiene products is extremely difficult, could reach a vaccination standard that would stop making them an ideal breeding ground for mutations and restinances to happen. 

I don't entirely disagree with you, but will say that Omicron came from South Africa, where everyone had access to the vaccine but most refused to get it, so it was still anti-vaxxers. I get that there's mixed reasoning and massive amounts of history that I'm not aware of, but the point is: With omicron, they had access.

Now, the new Cameroonian strain that recently reached France and Canada, that I believe falls more along the line of what you're insinuating, but it'll be one of the first that truly has been caused by a lack of vaccines in developing countries.

[just_ordinary]

4 hours ago, CaptainFunderpants said:

I don't entirely disagree with you, but will say that Omicron came from South Africa, where everyone had access to the vaccine but most refused to get it, so it was still anti-vaxxers. I get that there's mixed reasoning and massive amounts of history that I'm not aware of, but the point is: With omicron, they had access.

Now, the new Cameroonian strain that recently reached France and Canada, that I believe falls more along the line of what you're insinuating, but it'll be one of the first that truly has been caused by a lack of vaccines in developing countries.

While I think South Africa had mostly definitely not the worst circumstances, there are still big parts of the society where access is not as easy as it looks on paper. Just like the post-industrialised countries are often enough doing a poor job for some groups. And living situations /social interaction traditions can vary so much. When the multi-generational living is still the norm, when the children play an extremely important part of caring for their parents, when big families are part of making sure a society can function there is little chance for proper quarantine or isolation regime IF a dangerous mutation gets detected. A mutation can happen everywhere, and they do. Not all are going to succeed. But if you cannot reduce breeding grounds AND uphold certain measures to contain it quickly we will have this scenario again and again. At one point we will have to ask ourselves if that’s a risk we all have to just live with. Like other risks for the health of vulnerable and not vulnerable people that we willingly take. (I mean everyone knows that mass livestock in too small places was and still is the reason we now have massive problems with antibiotic resistances. We are still allowing its usage in those environment, allow this type of keeping livestock and buy the produce from it. Even though people literally die because we don’t have working antibiotics for them, or the ones we have left, have pretty severe side effects that are no fun at all.)

[nelliebelle1197]

9 hours ago, Alisamer said:

There’s no vaccine agains mental illness. Mental illness is not preventable by taking precautions. People don’t willfully choose to risk mental illness. People don’t go around encouraging other people not to prevent mental illness. And other than some fundies and maybe Scientology, mental illness is not politicized or called a hoax. 
 

so no. We don’t say that. 
fuck unvaccinated people though. Mental illness isn’t a choice. Vaccination is. 

Mental illness is also not a choice anyone would make if given an alternative. Mental illness is painful, debilitating in ways no one outside it can understand and so isolating. No one chooses that pain.

Edited January 8 by nelliebelle1197

[Johannah]

8 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

Does it? From the booster recommendations it’s looking - to me- that it depends which vaccine. Johnson and Johnson they are recommending a booster after 2 months. Pfizer at 5 months. Moderna at 5 or 6. At the same time they are not requiring people who have tested positive for Covid to get retested for reinfection for 3 months after recovery. Or that’s what our school district is using as policy. But if the immunity wears off faster - should they be testing sooner after recovery? It’s all so overwhelming. 

That is solely because tests can still show that you’re positive for up to 3 months even when you’re no longer infectious. So they’re trying to avoid false positive testing. It has nothing to do with immunity. 

[Mama Mia]

45 minutes ago, Johannah said:

That is solely because tests can still show that you’re positive for up to 3 months even when you’re no longer infectious. So they’re trying to avoid false positive testing. It has nothing to do with immunity. 

Well that seems like it will make it very, very difficult to tell who has an active case and is spreading symptoms, if you can get it again that quickly but don’t test for it. 

[candygirl200413]

4 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

 At one point we will have to ask ourselves if that’s a risk we all have to just live with. Like other risks for the health of vulnerable and not vulnerable people that we willingly take. (I mean everyone knows that mass livestock in too small places was and still is the reason we now have massive problems with antibiotic resistances. We are still allowing its usage in those environment, allow this type of keeping livestock and buy the produce from it. Even though people literally die because we don’t have working antibiotics for them, or the ones we have left, have pretty severe side effects that are no fun at all.)

It's kind of hard to say that we need to get used to it when we are basically averaging almost a million (and those are cases that we know of) a day? We are no whereeeee near endemic (which you need a baseline, and 800k+ is not? Also saying that not all are going to survive is pretty ableist like sorry disabled people are trying to live? and basically can't because there are no mask mandates where they live and that they are stuck in their houses for God knows.

[Sheltie]

17 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

The difference is that people who were mocked and scorned raised all of those points about the vaccines from the beginning and were immediately censored and silenced. That is what makes the current vaccine narrative gaslighting and memoryholing as opposed to merely evolving.

People cutting others out of their lives for personal choices they judge to be morally wrong is basically the definition of shunning. Feeling superior about doing it is a different skin on the same puritanical morality and high control belief systems we critique here. Welcome to the new religion of fundamentalist scientism. 

All this reminds me of that 1981 After School Special The Wave.  Does anyone remember that?  If you’re not familiar with it, it can be seen on YouTube.

[CaptainFunderpants]

1 hour ago, candygirl200413 said:

It's kind of hard to say that we need to get used to it when we are basically averaging almost a million (and those are cases that we know of) a day? We are no whereeeee near endemic (which you need a baseline, and 800k+ is not? Also saying that not all are going to survive is pretty ableist like sorry disabled people are trying to live? and basically can't because there are no mask mandates where they live and that they are stuck in their houses for God knows.

I'm fine with saying "not all anti-vaxxers will survive" and only admitting patients that have been vaccinated or have documented medical reasons for being unable to receive the vaccine 🙃

At this point in the USA/Canada/Europe/Oz it is largely a plague of the unvaccinated and I'm very ready for the medical establishment to say "enough" and send the unvaccinated to field hospitals with ivermectin and whatever GOP witchdoctors. It's time for hospitals to return to "normal" treating vaccinated patients with non-easily preventable conditions.

And for those that are like "BUT DAE ObEsItY/sMoKeRs/AlCoHoLiCs" my views on obesity are well documented around here, and even to that I say: Can you prevent obesity/alcoholism/nicotine addiction with two or three shots but otherwise zero patient effort? No. Okay. Not the same. Anti-vaxxers don't believe in modern medicine and that's fine, but as such they shouldn't be eligible for it when shit hits the fan.

[neuroticcat]

2 hours ago, Sheltie said:

All this reminds me of that 1981 After School Special The Wave.  Does anyone remember that?  If you’re not familiar with it, it can be seen on YouTube.

I read the description and it sounds interesting. It reminds me of the Milgram experiments and how susceptible we all are to authority figuresand social pressure. I wonder what sociologists will be saying about all of a couple of decades from now, or will we be even able to give a truthful accounting? 

Of course I’m rereading Orwell’s 1984 right now, so that might be contributing to my cynicism. 

 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

The anti-vaxxers will probably end up like post WWII Germany with a lot of shame placed on the fact they didn't do more to protect innocent people. 

[Ali]

1 hour ago, neuroticcat said:

I read the description and it sounds interesting. It reminds me of the Milgram experiments and how susceptible we all are to authority figuresand social pressure. I wonder what sociologists will be saying about all of a couple of decades from now, or will we be even able to give a truthful accounting? 

Of course I’m rereading Orwell’s 1984 right now, so that might be contributing to my cynicism. 

 

In my opinion, it is very arrogant for a random person on the internet to think they can come on here and convince a bunch of educated people that he or she knows more than doctors and scientists. I listen to doctors and scientists, not random people on the internet.

They have already studied this long before the pandemic began. This article from 2018 is about anti-vaxxers and autism, but I think very applicable.

https://www.newsweek.com/anti-vaxx-dunning-kruger-effect-science-autism-doctors-americans-vaccine-1299650

Quote

One possibility is that attitudes about medical experts help to explain the endorsement of anti-vax attitudes. Specifically, building on past research, our research team contends that some U.S. adults might support anti-vax policy positions—in part—because they believe they know more than medical experts about autism and its causes. 

Some of us have been trying to do everything right from the beginning and we are tired. Some of us, like myself, had to put our lives at risk and were thankful for the opportunity to be vaccinated. I taught for months face to face before I could be vacinnated. I am well aware of the learning loss and the negative affect this pandemic has had on students and EDUCATORS. I want this pandemic to end, and I am sick and tired of others not doing their part. The longer it goes on, the more damage it will have on children long-term.

I will say this as kindly as I can manage at this point, because I have a very difficult week due mainly to covid, you are not going to change anyone's mind about it, so move on please.

Edited January 8 by Ali

[nelliebelle1197]

13 minutes ago, Ali said:

In my opinion, it is very arrogant for a random person on the internet to think they can come on here and convince a bunch of educated people that he or she knows more than doctors and scientists. I listen to doctors and scientists, not random people on the internet.

They have already studied this long before the pandemic began. This article from 2018 is about anti-vaxxers and autism, but I think very applicable.

https://www.newsweek.com/anti-vaxx-dunning-kruger-effect-science-autism-doctors-americans-vaccine-1299650

Some of us have been trying to do everything right from the beginning and we are tired. Some of us, like myself, had to put our lives at risk and were thankful for the opportunity to be vaccinated. I taught for months face to face before I could be vacinnated. I am well aware of the learning loss and the negative affect this pandemic has had on students and EDUCATORS. I want this pandemic to end, and I am sick and tired of others not doing their part. The longer it goes on, the more damage it will have on children long-term.

I will say this as kindly as I can manage at this point, because I have a very difficult week due mainly to covid, you are not going to change anyones mind about it, so move on please.

Especially with the lack of critical thinking (h/t @nausicaa) and the circular reasoning on display here.

[neuroticcat]

5 hours ago, Ali said:

In my opinion, it is very arrogant for a random person on the internet to think they can come on here and convince a bunch of educated people that he or she knows more than doctors and scientists. I listen to doctors and scientists, not random people on the internet.

I will say this as kindly as I can manage at this point, because I have a very difficult week due mainly to covid, you are not going to change anyone's mind about it, so move on please.

🙄 We all come to this forum as random internet people sharing their opinions on all sorts of things, but it is arrogant for me to do so. Argument from authority, check. Ad hominem attack, check. 

The primary argument I am trying to make again and again is that it is hateful and fundamentalist-like to unequivocally scapegoat the anti vaxxed for the pandemic, whatever you think about their views. I will continue to state my opinion however often I choose, because all people are humans, and I find the attitudes expressed here appalling, illogical, and dehumanizing.  

I think everyone wants this pandemic to end and I agree that the collateral damage to children and young people is horrific.

5 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Especially with the lack of critical thinking (h/t @nausicaa) and the circular reasoning on display here.

I agree that there is an astonishing lack of critical thinking and open mindedness going on here.

Edited January 9 by neuroticcat

[just_ordinary]

8 hours ago, CaptainFunderpants said:

I'm fine with saying "not all anti-vaxxers will survive" and only admitting patients that have been vaccinated or have documented medical reasons for being unable to receive the vaccine 🙃

At this point in the USA/Canada/Europe/Oz it is largely a plague of the unvaccinated and I'm very ready for the medical establishment to say "enough" and send the unvaccinated to field hospitals with ivermectin and whatever GOP witchdoctors. It's time for hospitals to return to "normal" treating vaccinated patients with non-easily preventable conditions.

And for those that are like "BUT DAE ObEsItY/sMoKeRs/AlCoHoLiCs" my views on obesity are well documented around here, and even to that I say: Can you prevent obesity/alcoholism/nicotine addiction with two or three shots but otherwise zero patient effort? No. Okay. Not the same. Anti-vaxxers don't believe in modern medicine and that's fine, but as such they shouldn't be eligible for it when shit hits the fan.

I would like to that add, that depending on where you are, anti-vaxxers are not necessarily anti modern medicine and science. Here those kinds of crazy don’t make up even a third of them. It’s a weird mix of conspiracy theorists, anti-government/authority, right wing nationalists, left wing radicalises, anti big pharma, hyper worried about side effects…..

And I will say, not every argument coming out of this pot is stupid or not valid per se. I just think those should be discussed and I think they still „loose“ in light of the current situation. I also think governments should put vaccination mandates out there. Let them demonstrate and whatever. Protect your other citizens, vulnerables and all the unvaccinated children. But be firm. Because this long squirming is pissing off everyone.

[CaptainFunderpants]

1 hour ago, just_ordinary said:

I would like to that add, that depending on where you are, anti-vaxxers are not necessarily anti modern medicine and science. Here those kinds of crazy don’t make up even a third of them. It’s a weird mix of conspiracy theorists, anti-government/authority, right wing nationalists, left wing radicalises, anti big pharma, hyper worried about side effects…..

*snip*

Yeah, my mom is one of them. I still maintain no vax, no admission -even for a non-COVID problem.

We all have to work together right now, and religiously masking + getting a couple of shots is the absolute least you can do. Admittedly my mom is very good about masking, but... Still. Sometimes you have to make difficult choices.

The trolley problem. COVID patients are usually on ventilators for 5+ weeks, while a non-COVID patient is on a ventilator for four-ish days. Seven+ patients could use that one vent if not for the unvaxxed COVID patient.

 

[Anna Bolinas]

At the end of the day, it comes down to this: are we supposed to tolerate everything, even those things detrimental to society, or are we supposed to try to police what certain individuals do for the betterment of collective? Your right to throw a punch ends at my face. Of course, what constitutes "detrimental to society" is an open question, and there are many instances of that question being answered in heinous ways, i.e. Nazis (which is what "The Wave" afterschool special is based on, btw). But I think there are gradations between attempting to put the needs of the many above the needs of the few/one and being a fundamentalist/Nazi/Big Brother/whatever else.

Antivaxxers are, as has been discussed, similar to drunk drivers. If you want to do stupid shit that only harms you, be my guest. But if you are going to do something that could have a detrimental, even deadly, effect on someone else--like not getting a vaccine to help stop the spread of a virus, or not getting behind the wheel of a car if you're drunk--then you should be shamed. And you should feel ashamed. And that is not Orwellian. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

This isn't a forum to defend every idea out there. It's a forum to check fundies and refute bad ideas. It's forum for trying to take a critical look at beliefs we consider harmful. It's a forum to look at the behavior and beliefs of some hurt others. It's a forum for looking at superstition and opinion often fly in the face of science and evidence, and how that can be harmful. Criticizing people for not getting vaccinated and thus spreading a deadly disease that is killing people goes along with all of that.

Edited January 9 by Bluebirdbluebell

[byzant]

Open minded apparently means fuck everyone else I'm fine cos someone on Facebook said so.

Fundamentalism is about a ridged adherence to a set of beliefs IE anti Vax /flat earth- Not following the scientific evidence and judging those selfish enough to risk others due to their ill founded belief in their own intelligence. 

With all due respect in year 3 of the pandemic working for the NHS - fuck them- if they can't be bothered making a minimal effort to protect themselves and others they have no place in society and are welcome to bugger off and stop using resources required for people who need them. (Obviously not including people without access or who actually can't have the jab- that's where the societal responsibility to take action to protect those who can't comes in) 

 

This idea that balance means a scientist with evidence and proof and a flat earther with a Facebook page  are given equal time is nonsense. There is good scientific evidence - that's what needs to prevail not random ill informed ignorant and selfish nonsense. 

Edited January 9 by byzant
Riffles

[Coconut Flan]

Why did no one have hissy fits over everyone having to have a TDaP booster before visiting newborns during the pertussis wave going through a few years back?  It was OK to cut off contact with even grandparents who wouldn't get a booster, but was that because they were newborns?  Now it's fine to play kill off grandma or tell my mother she's imprisoned in memory care with no visitors?  I'm supposed to sit in my house for years because people want to exercise their rights to not get vaccinated or wear a decent mask and go around spreading a potentially deadly virus?  It's a minority of people forcing these problems on the rest of us and my patience is gone.  This isn't a religious issue.  It isn't a fundie issue.  It's a public health crisis and one that is swamping our hospitals and could potentially affect any one of us at any minute should we need emergency or hsopital care.

To visit my mother I have to have three doses of Moderna or Pfizer or one of Johnson & Johnson plus a Moderna or Pfizer and provide proof of it plus take an at home test within 24 hours or a PCR test within 48 hours (good luck obtaining that one).   Also wear an N 95 mask while I go in and maintain a 6 foot distance from all employees and other residents.  That I've been doing since Omicron began anyway.  I'm glad they are making sure that the "mah rights" club can't enter to visit or work there.  It's about keeping people alive and well.  

This isn't a religious issue.  It isn't a fundie issue.  It's a public health crisis and one that is swamping our hospitals and could potentially affect any one of us at any minute should we need emergency or hsopital care.  

[nelliebelle1197]

12 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

 

I agree that there is an astonishing lack of critical thinking and open mindedness going on here.

I am glad you are recognizing the lack of facts, critical thinking and cohesive arguments in your posts. That is the first step.

[neuroticcat]

7 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I am glad you are recognizing the lack of facts, critical thinking and cohesive arguments in your posts. That is the first step.

😂 Good one! Now do the people who insist that we wouldn’t have a pandemic if everyone were vaccinated. Like, say, in Iceland or Gibraltar where they have 100 percent vax rate and spiking cases or the fully vaxxed cruise ships and isolated Antarctic science station that had outbreaks. 
 

17 hours ago, Anna Bolinas said:

At the end of the day, it comes down to this: are we supposed to tolerate everything, even those things detrimental to society, or are we supposed to try to police what certain individuals do for the betterment of collective?

Precisely. The question is and has been for some time now, does vaccination actually better the collective and, if so, to what extent? I don’t know how thoughtful people who are triple vaxxed and still contracting COVID themselves have concluded that vaccinating other people with a failing vaccination that didn’t protect them is the solution. 

8 hours ago, byzant said:

Fundamentalism is about a ridged adherence to a set of beliefs 

Scientism is fundamentalist. The rigid, fear-based othering and moral posturing in the hatred for antivaxxers echoes high control religions and OCD health anxiety. I’d say any system that says “fuck those who don’t comply, they deserve to die” is suspect to me.

I think we societally want it to be all the unvaxxed’s fault, because then it helps us feel safer in light of the bleak prospect of failing vaccines and lets us feel as though we might be able to somehow control COVID, and, ultimately, or own mortality. We’ve all been promised a way out of this through vaccines, and instead we have this horror show of testing and boosting and masks and isolation and still vaccinated people get very sick and are dying and new variants pop up routinely. It’s also much easier to simplistically blame a despised subgroup than for public leaders to take accountability for inaction or poor planning or admit the reality that this might be one more deadly risk we have to live with. The truth is that society can hate and despise and falsely blame the unvaxxed, and it might be an anxiety release, but it won’t change the fact that the vaccines we now have cannot end this pandemic and the vaccinated are now being hospitalized at alarming rates while the recovered unvaxxed have natural immunity.

Maybe it’s worth asking: if there was a vaccine mandate, what do you think would happen? Do you genuinely think COVID would just be over? What evidence do you have for that when we see cases and outbreaks in the most vaccinated places spiking? Also, why refuse to consider natural immunity?

Edited January 9 by neuroticcat
Having trouble posting

[Antimony]

18 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

😂 Good one! Now do the people who insist that we wouldn’t have a pandemic if everyone were vaccinated. Like, say, in Iceland or a Gibraltar where they have 100 percent vax rate and spiking cases or the fully vaxxed cruise ships and isolated Antarctic science station that had outbreaks. 

Weird that you bring up Iceland, because the Washington Post actually had something to say about it being used as a stupid anti-vax talking point;

Quote

Vaccine opponents have gleefully pointed to Iceland as proof that the shots are a “failure.” But contrary to online misinformation and conspiratorial social media posts, infectious-disease experts say Iceland’s outbreak actually illustrates how effective the vaccines are at preventing the virus’s most severe impacts.

Many of the country’s recent infections have occurred among vaccinated people, but they’ve been overwhelmingly mild. So even as new cases multiplied, Iceland’s rates of covid-19 hospitalizations and deaths have remained low. Of the 1,300 people currently infected, just 2 percent are in the hospital. The country hasn’t recorded a virus death since late May.

But let's put some numbers in perspective.

Iceland has a population of 366,425. Let's call it 366,000 for our sanity. They've had 36,447 cases of COVID. For sanity and math, let's call it 36,000. That's 10% of the population that has had it. That is, fairly high, but okay. Iceland has recorded 39 COVID Deaths or ~one death per 10,000 persons. If you know 10,000 people, you know a dead person.

And over in the USA....

We get bigger numbers (frick - math, ew) but we have to scale that. United States has a population of about 330 Million People (that is a lot of apple pie, folks) and we've had about 60 Million cases of Covid. About 18% of us have had it (complicated, because some people get it twice but you get the jist). We're looking at 848,000 deaths. That's 0.25% of the population KO'd or, about one in 390 people dead. 

One in 390. The Average American knows about 600 people, and has about ~300 Facebook friends. 

Between 1 in 10,000 or 1 in 390, I know which choice I would choose just on the grief load alone.  

It is only because we live in a globalized world that countries who are doing the right thing can't have nice things, like a safe population, because unless everybody else gets the fuck on board, there will be more mutations. 

I'll also confess that I hate this type of math and if anybody finds a mistake (that isn't just rounding, I'm rounding this because the bigness of these numbers is unfathomable to the human mind anyway), I cheer you on. Point it out. 

Another way to put this was a mathematician on Twitter, (can't find it, but I am looking) expressed that while case numbers are about 1 Million Cases a day, it's equivalent to a birthday lottery. As in, you'd get the same number by just announcing that everybody with a certain birthday now has COVID. It's a pandemic death draft. 

[neuroticcat]

10 minutes ago, Antimony said:

 

And over in the USA....

We get bigger numbers (frick - math, ew) but we have to scale that. United States has a population of about 330 Million People (that is a lot of apple pie, folks) and we've had about 60 Million cases of Covid. About 18% of us have had it (complicated, because some people get it twice but you get the jist). We're looking at 848,000 deaths. That's 0.25% of the population KO'd or, about one in 390 people dead. 

1. Again, I will state that I am not trying to make an argument against vaccination. I am arguing against irrationally blaming the unvaxxed for the pandemic. The fact that Iceland at nearly 100 percent vax rate has ANY cases/deaths at this point demonstrates that fact. 

I think people should get the vaccine if they want it and be glad for its protection. Whether someone else gets vaccinated or not does not magically make your vaccine more or less effective.

2. Re: your numbers for US, We have no idea how many cases of Covid we have had in US because we have no national tracking system and a crap way of accounting for vax/unvaxxed/ etc, including most states dropping tracking hospitalization and cases for the double vaxxed. In my state, for instance, per the Seattle Times yesterday, they only record if a vaxxed person over 65 is hospitalized, because the amount of under 65 hospitalizations - vaxxed OR unvaxxed - is too small to be statistically significant. US likely has had many many many more cases than that - either where people haven’t tested or tested at home.

We also are at 40 percent obesity as a country (I don’t know where Iceland falls on that) which makes country-to-country comparisons pointless, because there are so many confounding factors, and like it or not, obesity is one of them.

I am not saying we have done a better job than Iceland. I am saying Iceland is nearly 100 percent vax rate and having cases spiking. So what should they do? Boost more. To what end? 
 

Edited January 10 by neuroticcat

[Bluebirdbluebell]

So according to @neuroticcat "it's in her WORDS! "not okay to scapegoat antivax people", even though it's something they could chose to do and it's relatively easy*. But she is  scapegoating people who are mentally ill or have autism (original anti-vax scapegoats) or are obese (can be genetic)  and that's acceptable to her. That's not logical or kind or intelligent.

*Not young children or people with medical conditions that make it dangerous to get vaccinated.

I apologize if I made it sound like I agree with the troll. 

Edited January 10 by Bluebirdbluebell

[neuroticcat]

36 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Scapegoating people for not getting vaccinated is not okay, even though it's something they could chose to do and it's relatively easy*. But scapegoating people who are mentally ill or have autism (original anti-vax scapegoats) or are obese (can be genetic) is acceptable. That's not logical or kind or intelligent.

*Not young children or people with medical conditions that make it dangerous to get vaccinated.

I think this is directed at me, but I agree with you that we should not scapegoat anyone. I don’t know what you mean about mentally ill/autistic or obese as original antivax scapegoats. 

I think it would be wrong to scapegoat those groups of people as well, though I haven’t heard anyone saying “f them, they are prolonging the pandemic,” have you?

ETA: Ok, so I see by your edit that this is definitely directed at me, because you are trying to speak for me.

I have never said anything about autistic people and have not scapegoated the mentally ill or obese people in my posts.

In fact, I argued the opposite, that it would be wrong to blame the mentally ill for my state’s hospital capacity problem, even though the primary reason we are near capacity in my state is we have no long term care for mentally ill discharges. I tried to compare the unreasonableness of blaming unvaxxed for hospital strain to blaming unmedictaed mentally ill for hospital overrun and said that the true fault was poor governance and hold to that. Hospital capacity is not the fault of ill people of any kind needing care, especially when we have had years to plan.

I stated a fact that the US is as 40 percent obesity rate, and obesity is correlated with complications from covid. Scapegoating would be saying it’s somehow the fault of obese patients that the pandemic is ongoing, something I never have or would say.

I know you don’t like my opinion, @Bluebirdbluebell, but please try and not lie.

Edited January 10 by neuroticcat