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nelliebelle1197

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2 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

But not to the same extend and the vaccinated typically aren't sucking up resources that could go to less willfully ignorant and more deserving patients.


“Sucking up resources? More deserving patients?” Yuck.

Unvaccinated does not automatically equal infected, infectious, or hospitalized, and we now know that vaccinated does not mean you won’t get infected, contagious, or hospitalized. This sort of all-or-nothing irrational thinking is all over the place in fundamentalism, and I’m really surprised to see FJerites continually repeating the same irrational conclusions. Do you not hear the fundamentalism and the gaslighting in the constant vaccine narrative? To me, there are a lot of parallels with religious belief in the differing COVID doctrines, and the determination to make vaccination into some kind of foolproof sacrament and to view those who refuse as the unclean sinners - despite having data that doesn’t support this - is all very dystopian.
 

Look, we all wanted the vax to work better and longer than it appears to be doing, but doubling down on the it’s-all-the-selfish-antivaxxer’s-fault distraction is ignorant, and, in my part of the country, has become really hateful and disgusting.

Anyway, even if you could prove your above point that getting vaccinated makes someone more deserving of healthcare or less likely to spread covid (an argument omicron is demolishing), the person in the above post was simply stating she saw a post with baby having trouble breathing from COVID and then immediately dehumanized and blamed the unvaxxed. 

Edited by neuroticcat
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9 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:


“Sucking up resources? More deserving patients?” Yuck.

Unvaccinated does not automatically equal infected, infectious, or hospitalized, and we now know that vaccinated does not mean you won’t get infected, contagious, or hospitalized. This sort of all-or-nothing irrational thinking is all over the place in fundamentalism, and I’m really surprised to see FJerites continually repeating the same irrational conclusions. Do you not hear the fundamentalism and the gaslighting in the constant vaccine narrative? Look, we all wanted the vax to work better and longer than it appears to be doing, but doubling down on the it’s-all-the-selfish-antivaxxer distraction is ignorant, and, in my part of the country, has become really hateful and disgusting.

Anyway, even if you could prove your above point that getting vaccinated makes someone more deserving of healthcare or less likely to spread covid (an argument omicron is demolishing), the person in the above post was simply stating she saw a post with baby having trouble breathing from COVID and then immediately dehumanized and blamed the unvaxxed. 

Yeah, willfully ignorant unvaccinated assholes are sucking up resources - needed surgeries and care are being put off because of them. Is your head in the sand? This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated now.  The only “yuck” I see is someone defending the assholes who are prolonging this pandemic, burdening society and the healthcare system and making the world a really lousy place because of their own stupid choices.

I see you don’t have much of a clue about how the vaccines work. Never were they meant to PREVENT covid; they were and are meant to lessen the severity of the virus, which they do. Virtually everyone with severe symptoms is unvaccinated. Virtually everyone who is in the hospital is unvaccinated BY CHOICE. I have no sympathy for them. They deserve the same respect  accorded drunk drivers, who knowingly take risks that can kill themselves and others.  Your entire little spiel is bent on defending people who knowingly choose to put themselves and others at risk. That is pathetic.

Edited by nelliebelle1197
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8 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:


“Sucking up resources? More deserving patients?” Yuck.

Unvaccinated does not automatically equal infected, infectious, or hospitalized, and we now know that vaccinated does not mean you won’t get infected, contagious, or hospitalized. This sort of all-or-nothing irrational thinking is all over the place in fundamentalism, and I’m really surprised to see FJerites continually repeating the same irrational conclusions. Do you not hear the fundamentalism and the gaslighting in the constant vaccine narrative? To me, there are a lot of parallels with religious belief in the differing COVID doctrines, and the determination to make vaccination into some kind of foolproof sacrament and to view those who refuse as the unclean sinners - despite having data that doesn’t support this - is all very dystopian.
 

Look, we all wanted the vax to work better and longer than it appears to be doing, but doubling down on the it’s-all-the-selfish-antivaxxer’s-fault distraction is ignorant, and, in my part of the country, has become really hateful and disgusting.

Anyway, even if you could prove your above point that getting vaccinated makes someone more deserving of healthcare or less likely to spread covid (an argument omicron is demolishing), the person in the above post was simply stating she saw a post with baby having trouble breathing from COVID and then immediately dehumanized and blamed the unvaxxed. 

We all have sympathy for those with medical reasons not to get vaccinated and young children who are at risk. 

I am done with sympathy for those who chose not to get vaccinated, not to wear a mask, not to social distance, etc. 

Where's their sympathy? Where's their sympathy for the people who can't get vaccinated including young children? Where's their sympathy for the millions of people who have died of the virus, many of whom through no fault of their own? Where's their sympathy for their own parents and grandparents who they continue to put at risk through not vaccinating and not social distancing? Where's the sympathy for their own families who love these people and don't want to bury them?

Vaccines work. They lower the risk of serious effects and transmission. 

There's also something called herd immunity, which if enough people get vaxxed the community has a collective immunity, which protects those are too vulnerable to get the vaccinated. Thanks to the unvaccinated, we may never reach herd immunity. These people are selfish, and will continue to hurt others with their selfishness.

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23 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Unvaccinated does not automatically equal infected, infectious, or hospitalized, and we now know that vaccinated does not mean you won’t get infected, contagious, or hospitalized. This sort of all-or-nothing irrational thinking is all over the place in fundamentalism, and I’m really surprised to see FJerites continually repeating the same irrational conclusions. Do you not hear the fundamentalism and the gaslighting in the constant vaccine narrative? To me, there are a lot of parallels with religious belief in the differing COVID doctrines, and the determination to make vaccination into some kind of foolproof sacrament and to view those who refuse as the unclean sinners - despite having data that doesn’t support this - is all very dystopian.

I'm not usually a fan of all or nothing thinking, but in this case, it applies. I have a good friend who is a doctor in the ER. Every single day, every single hour he works, the vax'd must be denied beds because the unvaxinated have filled the hospital. My friend spends hours -- hours!-- of his shift calling around to find beds for cancer patients, the elderly, heart patients because the unvaxed are using up the resources. It IS a black and white situation, and if you spend any time in the ER you will see what I mean. If you haven't spent time in an ER, you are just someone who doesn't want to face ugly truths. 

The doctors and nurses I know aren't just tired, they are furious. The unvaxd are using most of the resources, and it was all preventable. Most of these medical people are generally good, kind people, but their empathy for the unvax'd is near zero. They have compassion fatigue. They've literally watched vaccinated people die -- yes, die--because of the lack of staff, oxygen, and beds.

This is an ugly truth, and the fact that the ugliness bothers you is irrelevant, really. It's still true. Spend some time in your local ER and watch someone with lung disease struggle for breath because there is no available oxygen for him (the unvaxed are using it). Watch a cancer patient moan in pain because he cannot be admitted and must spend hours in an ER hallway. THEN your opinion will have some merit. The unvaccinated ARE using up resources, and it is because of their obstinacy that people are dying and this pandemic is dragging on.

Edited by Jackie3
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12 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

I'm not usually a fan of all or nothing thinking, but in this case, it applies. I have a good friend who is a doctor in the ER. Every single day, every single hour he works, the vax'd must be denied beds because the unvaxinated have filled the hospital. My friend spends hours -- hours!-- of his shift calling around to find beds for cancer patients, the elderly, heart patients because the unvaxed are using up the resources. It IS a black and white situation, and if you spend any time in the ER you will see what I mean. If you haven't spent time in an ER, you are just someone who doesn't want to face ugly truths. 

The doctors and nurses I know aren't just tired, they are furious. The unvaxd are using most of the resources, and it was all preventable. Most of these medical people are generally good, kind people, but their empathy for the unvax'd is near zero. They have compassion fatigue. They've literally watched vaccinated people die -- yes, die--because of the lack of staff, oxygen, and beds.

This is an ugly truth, and the fact that the ugliness bothers you is irrelevant, really. It's still true. Spend some time in your local ER and watch someone with lung disease struggle for breath because there is no available oxygen for him (the unvaxed are using it). Watch a cancer patient moan in pain because he cannot be admitted and must spend hours in an ER hallway. THEN your opinion will have some merit. The unvaccinated ARE using up resources, and it is because of their obstinacy that people are dying and this pandemic is dragging on.

This is why some countries with national healthcare are going to start charging the willfully unvaccinated for their healthcare. 

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I have heard all the arguments, guys. I know this is an unpopular opinion, especially on this forum, but that is what surprises me and why I respond. I have followed with much interest as the vaccine promises switched between vaccines are 100 percent safe and effective to you can get infected but don’t worry they can still prevent transmission to now, well, we always said they just reduced symptoms. It’s classic gaslighting, and the receipts are all there if you care to look at public health messaging from the summer on.

If it were only a pandemic of the unvaccinated, we would not have vaccinated people infected, hospitalized and dying. If it were a pandemic of the unvaccinated, my county, which has unbelievably high vaccination rates would not be surging with a seasonal virus - as is happening everywhere. If it were only a pandemic of the unvaccinated, there would not be countries with near 100 percent vax rates experiencing surge after surge. I understand compassion fatigue is a real thing and imagine that is a heavy load to bear, but how can anyone read what you wrote about vaccinated people dying in hospital and think that would somehow be preventable by more people getting vaccinated? The vax isn’t all we hoped and won’t be the way out of this. The question is: will we face that and come up with new solutions or continue to pretend it’s all the unvaxxed’s fault?

Using “everyone knows” statements like “virtually everyone in hospitals is vaccinated/unvaccinated” as data and using anecdotal ER stories as evidence is not compelling. Since when is that “science?” Do you know that the US has no federal standard for tracking that information? No standards of care that require documentation of vaccine status upon admission or treatment? So how can you say that everyone in the hospital is unvaccinated by choice and eating up resources? A few other countries are doing a better job at tracking this, like the UK and Canada, and the statistics are revealing. Hospitalization, morbidity and mortality all continue to be much more related to age than vax status, and, in the younger demographics, vax status seems to be a negative impact on outcomes though no one is exactly sure why. And how can they be when there are so many other crises overlooked in all the hand wringing over the minority of unvaxxed people. The suicides? The opioid deaths? The mental health degeneration among the young and old? Or do we blame the unvaxxed for that as well?

We will never reach herd immunity for a viral illness. The fact that such a claim has been circulating is false hope and epidemiologically unsound. If we really wanted some version of collective immunity, we would recognize that generational immunity is a thing, that allowing the very young to gain natural immunity at little risk to themselves will help us all in decades to come, but that is understandably controversial. Anyway, the fact that we can’t get herd immunity to mutating viruses is why there is a new flu vaccine every year. At best, the vaccine is a decent prophylactic, similar to the flu shot, and people should be able to opt in if they want but also opt out without being blamed for a global pandemic.

The way in which such a choice has been turned into a symbol of moral purity is astonishing to me and very religious. Somewhere along the way we decided that “good unselfish” people get the vaccine and “bad selfish” people don’t, and if good people (the vaxxed or those who wish they could be but can’t for medical reasons) get sick, it’s the bad people’s fault, and if bad people get sick, they deserve it and worse -  and it’s really really messed up OCD thinking. As someone who had a full-on descent into postpartum OCD health anxiety it’s all very familiar and appalling to see a massive move in that direction. It is irrational and crazy making. Why do you think boosted, vaxxed people who now have COVID feel morally culpable and guilty? For getting sick from a virus we can’t control? That’s madness! 

And, to be clear, I’m not suggesting you must have sympathy for people you disagree with, but I am saying it is irrational and unscientific to morally blame and vilify people for their personal decisions that have little to no bearing on the spread of an endemic viral illness. To claim that these talking points are “the science” as frequently happens where I live is maddening. Fine, if that’s your opinion, but that does not make it “science,” because it includes vaccination.

Finally, I agree that the situation in the ERs and hospitals are horrible, but you know what? Federal and state officials have had TWO YEARS to do something about hospital capacity, and they have done nothing. So, okay, blame the sick people if you want, but in my state, at least, it’s shitty government that is mostly to blame. Our hospitals are at capacity when we reach 10 percent COViD inpatients. Why? Because we have no long term nursing care or mental health services. So hospitals have nowhere appropriate to discharge the mentally ill, drug addicted, or homeless patients. Should we blame them too for “sucking up resources?” Or someone hospitalized for cancer or other illness that could theoretically be prevented by better personal choices? Why? The hospital is there for sick people, even the drunk drivers or anti vaxxed or homeless or addicts, and the Hippocratic oath is to treat people regardless.

Anyway, downvote away. I’ve observed the conversation on vaccines and covid to be an echo chamber on FJ, which I guess is understandable, but here is my small attempt to provide an alternate perspective.  

Edited by neuroticcat
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Basically if someone is unwilling to get vaccinated, they are out of my life.  Not taking the minimum they can do to help keep me alive tells me all I need to know. 

Science changes with developing knowledge and yes vaccines were oversold a bit.  Plus the virus mutated and the message has to change as the science as the mutations evolve.  That isn't gaslighting.  It's common sense that the situation changes.  

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2 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

Basically if someone is unwilling to get vaccinated, they are out of my life.  Not taking the minimum they can do to help keep me alive tells me all I need to know. 

Science changes with developing knowledge and yes vaccines were oversold a bit.  Plus the virus mutated and the message has to change as the science as the mutations evolve.  That isn't gaslighting.  It's common sense that the situation changes.  

The difference is that people who were mocked and scorned raised all of those points about the vaccines from the beginning and were immediately censored and silenced. That is what makes the current vaccine narrative gaslighting and memoryholing as opposed to merely evolving.

People cutting others out of their lives for personal choices they judge to be morally wrong is basically the definition of shunning. Feeling superior about doing it is a different skin on the same puritanical morality and high control belief systems we critique here. Welcome to the new religion of fundamentalist scientism. 

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No, it's staying alive.   Since you would apparently prefer me dead, I have no use for you either.  Thankfully my family prefers to keep me around awhile longer and are all fully vaccinated and boosted.  

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Vaccines are a marvel of modern medicine. They are as close to a "miracle" as I, an atheist would be willing to pronounce anything a miracle. I am grateful every day for the "fundamentalist" scientists who helped eradicate smallpox. There is no way to promote an "antivax" stance in good faith. Those who do are the gas lighters. 

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6 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

No, it's staying alive.   Since you would apparently prefer me dead, I have no use for you either.  Thankfully my family prefers to keep me around awhile longer and are all fully vaccinated and boosted.  

Of course I don’t prefer anyone dead, vaccinated or unvaccinated. 🙄 My refusal to ignore the data and determination not scapegoat an easily scorned subgroup has nothing to do with your health or COVID outcomes. You, of course, are free to shun and dismiss anyone you wish, including people who disagree with you, and I will continue to point out that such a posture is a hallmark of fundamentalism.

5 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

Vaccines are a marvel of modern medicine. They are as close to a "miracle" as I, an atheist would be willing to pronounce anything a miracle. I am grateful every day for the "fundamentalist" scientists who helped eradicate smallpox. There is no way to promote an "antivax" stance in good faith. Those who do are the gas lighters. 

Thank you for demonstrating my point that this is a new religion with belief in miracles, saints, atonement, taboos, saviors, purity, original sin, and all the rest.
 

I am not promoting an anti vax stance. I am challenging the religious fervor with which everyone so quickly and violently blames the unvaccinated for an endemic pandemic despite ongoing evidence to the contrary. How exactly is my opinion and challenge of such vitriol here gaslighting? 

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11 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Of course I don’t prefer anyone dead, vaccinated or unvaccinated. 🙄 My refusal to ignore the data and determination not scapegoat an easily scorned subgroup has nothing to do with your health or COVID outcomes. You, of course, are free to shun and dismiss anyone you wish, including people who disagree with you, and I will continue to point out that such a posture is a hallmark of fundamentalism.

Thank you for demonstrating my point that this is a new religion with belief in miracles, saints, atonement, taboos, saviors, purity, original sin, and all the rest.
 

I am not promoting an anti vax stance. I am challenging the religious fervor with which everyone so quickly and violently blames the unvaccinated for an endemic pandemic despite ongoing evidence to the contrary. How exactly is my opinion and challenge of such vitriol here gaslighting? 

Can you produce your data? You have data that no one else seems to have. Kaiser Foundation reported recently that only 15 percent of covid hospitalizations were vaccinated and the majority of those cases had a co-morbidity. Your argument is crazy and so bloody shallow. The unvaccinated are the problem. You have no evidence to the contrary.  @Jackie3’s anecdotes are not finalized data but guess what? Actual doctors in hospitals are the ones who provide the information on the ground. So her friend is a sample of what thousands of other doctors are reporting. 

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What I dislike the most about any conversation about Covid or vaccines or masks or quarantines or shut-downs or treatments or ANY part of any of it is that everyone gets SO entrenched that there is no room for civil discussion.
 

I’m pro-vax. I wear a mask when I go out. I hand sanitize. I live in an area where kids distance learned and recreation was closed for well over a year.  I have several health care workers in my circle, and virtually everyone I know is some sort of essential worker. I would say I’m fairly average as far as how much I’ve limited social activities. 

I don’t like that there can’t be discussion about any serious vaccine side effects without being shouted down (and it’s nonsensical to think there wouldn’t be some bad effects when hundreds of millions of people take any kind of new thing) I don’t like that we can’t discuss the really serious trauma and mental health issues for kids brought on by social isolation for a year + of their lives. I don’t like that we don’t admit that obviously the vaccines don’t work as well as we hoped - of course the idea was that the vaccine would prevent contracting and spreading the disease! 


I still think vaccines are overall much better than not vaccinating and the risks of the disease are much greater than the vaccine risks.  I still think shutting things down was a good idea. I still think lowering the risk of potential hospitalization and death has been a very good outcome of vaccines. But I really, really hate the lack of nuance in any serious conversation. 
 

FWIW, I have several family members who are currently ill with Covid. All of them vaxxed and not sick enough for the hospital, but pretty damn sick.

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1 hour ago, neuroticcat said:

The difference is that people who were mocked and scorned raised all of those points about the vaccines from the beginning and were immediately censored and silenced. That is what makes the current vaccine narrative gaslighting and memoryholing as opposed to merely evolving.

People cutting others out of their lives for personal choices they judge to be morally wrong is basically the definition of shunning. Feeling superior about doing it is a different skin on the same puritanical morality and high control belief systems we critique here. Welcome to the new religion of fundamentalist scientism. 

1. That's not what the term "gaslighting" means. Or "censored."

 

2. You wouldn't cut someone out of your life for making a choice you deem morally wrong? What if they continued to drive drunk and endanger others? Do you disagree with Josh's siblings who've cut off contact with him? 

 

3. This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated in the sense that that is who is filling our ERs and using respirators, and breaking our already overloaded healthcare system. It's not anecdata. I don't know how willfully obtuse one would have to be to miss this info at this point. 

 

NYC Department of Health numbers:

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page#daily

 

An article covering vaccinated versus unvaccinated ratios in various Texas hospitals:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/health/amp/Omicron-is-sending-vaccinated-people-to-the-16755204.php

 

Comparing counties in Kentucky:

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-covid-surge-shows-overwhelming-cost-of-being-unvaccinated-america/

 

Here's a thread on British Columbia hospital admissions and how cumulative case rate differs from case rate percentage increases and how the latter can be misleading:

https://mobile.twitter.com/tylerblack32/status/1479309270604652545

 

4. Why are you acting as if herd immunity for a virus is unprecedented? Measles and polio are both viral. 

Edited by nausicaa
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39 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Can you produce your data? You have data that no one else seems to have. Kaiser Foundation reported recently that only 15 percent of covid hospitalizations were vaccinated and the majority of those cases had a co-morbidity. Your argument is crazy and so bloody shallow. The unvaccinated are the problem. You have no evidence to the contrary.  @Jackie3’s anecdotes are not finalized data but guess what? Actual doctors in hospitals are the ones who provide the information on the ground. So her friend is a sample of what thousands of other doctors are reporting. 

It’s not data that no one else seems to have. Why do you think people are getting boosters and vaccinated people are getting infected? I have no issue with your numbers here. If they reported fifteen percent of hospitalizations were in the vaccinated with comorbidities, does that not trouble you? Those are the very people the vaccinations are supposed to help. How could someone who isn’t vaccinated being vaccinated have prevented the vaccine’s waning protection? COVID is and always will be endemic. The vaccine doesn’t stop the spread. In fact, it may mask symptoms and thus contribute to spread. All the public health talking heads are saying this now, so I’m not sure what data you want from me. If the vaccine stopped transmission or contraction, I would agree with your point here, but it doesn’t. Anyway, I’m not trying to make an argument against vaccination. I am trying to argue that it’s irrational and misguided to continually and hatefully blame the unvaccinated for the seasonal surge we are experiencing.

Anyway, maybe data you mean numbers of unvaxxed vs vaxxed patients. Wouldn’t we all like clear and accurate numbers for that?  Anyway, I’ll provide UK data here, since the NHS seems to be doing the best job of keeping track of vaccinated/unvaccinated hospitalization status. Of course, as they note, these numbers still require interpretation as we can’t account for questions like whether vaxxed are more likely to seek hospital care or how many unvaxxed contract COVID and don’t report. Which is the case with all COVID arguments anyway, which again makes the certainty about the unvaxxinated being the “real problem” so shortsighted.  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1045329/Vaccine_surveillance_report_week_1_2022.pdf Ill screenshot a few charts  in the spoiler. 

And I have no problem listening to anecdotal stories from doctors on the ground. Of course, they only see the very sick, so of course that is going to shape the anecdotes. And what about the other doctors and nurses on the ground this whole crisis who have still chosen to not get vaccinated and who have been fired in a huge staffing crisis. Or people with robust natural immunity who are lumped in with the villainous antivaxxers? Does that make sense? And others who are speaking out about the inconsistent policies - I just read about an asymptomatic positive mother separated from her newborn while positive vaccinated NICU nurses are allowed to return to work if they wear a mask. The magical thinking around the vaccine is absurd. If you want to support the use of anecdotal stories, there are plenty from all sides, but at this point, people have made up their minds. My main goal here is to try to point out how rigid, controlling, and religious the loathing of the anti vaxxed has become. 
 

Spoiler

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1 hour ago, neuroticcat said:

Thank you for demonstrating my point that this is a new religion with belief in miracles, saints, atonement, taboos, saviors, purity, original sin, and all the rest.

And yet your posts have yet to link to any studies or hard numbers, you use language imprecisely, and many of your claims can't sustain being taken to even the closest logical conclusion. 

For someone who seems to struggle with critical reasoning and constructing a rational argument, you are awfully accusatory of others. 

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I blame unvaccinated people for this virus going on so long because they are the reason it is still spreading. The earlier variants were much less likely to cause breakthrough infections in vaccinated people. If everyone had gotten vaccinated as soon as they were able (and yeah I get not everyone can, and that some countries are having difficulty with rollout) this would have likely ended by now. We’d have reached herd immunity. 
 

But no. Too many people didn’t get the shot and now there are variants getting past the vaccines. 
WHY are there those new variants? Because of the virus circulating in unvaxxed people!

Unvaccinated people are spreading the virus, giving it a chance to mutate, and keeping this mess going far far longer than it should have. 
 

I’m done with them. If they get Covid, they asked for it. If they refused medical prevention for the virus they should stick to their guns and refuse medical treatment for it as well. Stay out of the hospital and be selfish somewhere else. If they don’t trust doctors to give them the vaccine why do they trust doctors to save their lives when the inevitable happens and they get what they asked for?

I’m all out of compassion and at this point am having a hard time not wishing they’d all just get the virus at once and either get enough temporary immunity to help stop the thing, or else take themselves out of the gene pool. 
 

It’s been years now. This is dumb. 

Edited by Alisamer
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15 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

1. That's not what the term "gaslighting" means. Or "censored."

 

2. You wouldn't cut someone out of your life for making a choice you deem morally wrong? What if they continued to drive drunk and endanger others? Do you disagree with Josh's siblings who've cut off contact with him? 

 

3. This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated in the sense that that is who is filling our ERs and using respirators, and breaking our already overloaded healthcare system. It's not anecdata. I don't know how willfully obtuse one would have to be to miss this info at this point. 

 

NYC Department of Health numbers:

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page#daily

 

An article covering vaccinated versus unvaccinated ratios in various Texas hospitals:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/health/amp/Omicron-is-sending-vaccinated-people-to-the-16755204.php

 

Comparing counties in Kentucky:

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-covid-surge-shows-overwhelming-cost-of-being-unvaccinated-america/

 

Here's a thread on British Columbia hospital admissions and how cumulative case rate differs from case rate percentage increases and how the latter can be misleading:

https://mobile.twitter.com/tylerblack32/status/1479309270604652545

 

4. Why are you acting as if herd immunity for a virus is unprecedented? Measles and polio are both viral. 

1. I disagree. Alternative medical opinions from credible scientists have been censored again and again, see most recently the intentional silencing of The Great Barrington Declaration authors in early 2020. It is gaslighting to pivot the narrative to control people, most recently exemplified by the CDC about-face declaration that cloth and surgical masks are pointless, something “discredited” people have been slammed over for saying for months, with no acknowledgment that this new CDC view is contrary to official medical advice and resulting mandates. 

2. I certainly wouldn’t cut someone out for a personal medical choice, but then I don’t see vaccination as a moral issue. I mean, people are free to cut people off for all sorts of reasons, but my point here is that the violent hatred for the anti vaxxed for refusing to conform has much in common with fundamentalist shunning. The data simply isn’t there to suggest this is anything but a personal medical decision. 

3. Yes. COVID results in hospitalizations and deaths, and vaccines offer some protection. Again, I’m not trying to make an antivax argument here. I’m arguing against the “fuck the antivaxxers” response I see on here whenever there is bad COVID news. The high numbers of vaccinated patients in your stats here support my point that the behavior of the unvaxxed is mostly irrelevant to endemic spread. And, yes, that may mean there are unvaxxed who need treatment, but since when did we vilify people for needing medical care, whatever their reasons? To suggest that the antivaxxers are the final straw for medical workers ignores the many other people currently hospitalized due to personal reasons. Do we say “fuck the mentally ill” because in my state they are taking up most of the hospital beds? It’s also worth filtering these headlines through actual hospital admissions stats. For instance, only 10 percent of my state’s ICU capacity is COVID patients regardless of vax status but we are nearing capacity. Is that really COVID breaking the system? We have overworked professionals but we fired a bunch of those who didn’t want to get the vax (testing not an option). We have had 911 services disrupted because first responders were also fired. Is that really a COVID problem Or is it a crappy system?
 

4. Apologies. I meant we have never had herd immunity for a respiratory coronavirus of any kind. Also both measles and polio both have a vaccine that stops transmission and infection which is a different thing altogether. F the current covid vaccines did that, this would be a totally different conversation.

 

37 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

 

For someone who seems to struggle with critical reasoning and constructing a rational argument, you are awfully accusatory of others. 

I have specifically tried to avoid ad hominem attacks like this. My goal is to push back on the echo chamber here not to attack anyone personally. I don’t think we are each other’s enemies even if we disagree on this. 

57 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

. But I really, really hate the lack of nuance in any serious conversation. 
 

 

Yes. Me too. The binary thinking on this can be so divisive as though everyone hasn’t been through the ringer with the past two years. I also think region and response has a lot to do with it. I live in a place with pretty heavy handed mandates and no end in sight, regardless of vax, masking, numbers, whatever. My experience has been really different from my best friend where life has been “normal” since 2020. Our geography has really shaped our perspectives and opinions.

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10 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Do we say “fuck the mentally ill” because in my state they are taking up most of the hospital beds?

There’s no vaccine agains mental illness. Mental illness is not preventable by taking precautions. People don’t willfully choose to risk mental illness. People don’t go around encouraging other people not to prevent mental illness. And other than some fundies and maybe Scientology, mental illness is not politicized or called a hoax. 
 

so no. We don’t say that. 
fuck unvaccinated people though. Mental illness isn’t a choice. Vaccination is. 

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49 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

 

1 hour ago, Alisamer said:

I blame unvaccinated people for this virus going on so long because they are the reason it is still spreading. The earlier variants were much less likely to cause breakthrough infections in vaccinated people. If everyone had gotten vaccinated as soon as they were able (and yeah I get not everyone can, and that some countries are having difficulty with rollout) this would have likely ended by now. We’d have reached herd immunity. 
 

But no. Too many people didn’t get the shot and now there are variants getting past the vaccines. 
WHY are there those new variants? Because of the virus circulating in unvaxxed people!

Unvaccinated people are spreading the virus, giving it a chance to mutate, and keeping this mess going far far longer than it should have. 
 

I’m done with them. If they get Covid, they asked for it. If they refused medical prevention for the virus they should stick to their guns and refuse medical treatment for it as well. Stay out of the hospital and be selfish somewhere else. If they don’t trust doctors to give them the vaccine why do they trust doctors to save their lives when the inevitable happens and they get what they asked for?

I’m all out of compassion and at this point am having a hard time not wishing they’d all just get the virus at once and either get enough temporary immunity to help stop the thing, or else take themselves out of the gene pool. 
 

It’s been years now. This is dumb. 

You know when we had herd immunity? Before the first case came to whatever country each of us lives in. You know what spread it? Global travel. So, no, even if we could vaccinate the entire world and animal kingdom, we would not vaccinate our way out of this, and what is dumb is continuing to ignore that reality and blame an unlikeable group just because it’s simpler to have someone to blame for a traumatic pandemic.

How exactly are the unvaccinated circulating variants? Unvaccinated does not equal infected. In fact many unvaxxed are recovered with natural immunity, so, I guess your wish has been granted. It still won’t stop the spread of an endemic virus and vaccination never would have. Coronaviruses always mutate which is why we typically don’t vax for them and why things like he flu shot are a crapshoot. 
 

OK, so we can’t blame the mentally ill (I mean, by your argument we can blame them if they don’t take their meds I guess) OR the vaccinated for hospital failure, they are safe. What about the other people making up the 90 percent hospital capacity. Should we blame the drug addicts? The people whose lifestyles made them more at risk for heart attacks and strokes? Why exactly is it that doctors can muster up the ability to do their job for everyone else regardless of their personal backgrounds except for the ten percent of hospital inpatients (not all of whom are unvaxxed but let’s round up to make my point) who are popular to stigmatize?
 

Frankly, most of the arguments for why people hate the unvaccinated fall short. They aren’t the only or even main reasons hospitals are nearing capacity. They aren’t the only or even main reasons CoViD is still here or spreading. They have nothing to do with waning vaccine efficacy. I mean, they may not be likeable or winsome people, and they may be tinfoil conspiracy theorists or have bad politics or whatever else, but, for real, are we all going to collectively shrug off our ability to see other people’s’ humanity over something so small?

Edited by neuroticcat
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@neuroticcat the crux of your arguments hinge on the assumption that vaccinating oneself makes no difference in one’s likelihood of spreading the virus to others, and that is simply not reality. 
 

There are valid critiques to be made of the policy and messaging around vaccines, particularly relying on them to the exclusion of other safety measures when really they ought to be part of a layered strategy, but it’s wrong to pretend that they are completely useless when really they are just not the silver bullet against delta and omicron that they  briefly seemed to be against the original virus. 

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39 minutes ago, Dominionatrix said:

@neuroticcat the crux of your arguments hinge on the assumption that vaccinating oneself makes no difference in one’s likelihood of spreading the virus to others, and that is simply not reality. 
 

There are valid critiques to be made of the policy and messaging around vaccines, particularly relying on them to the exclusion of other safety measures when really they ought to be part of a layered strategy, but it’s wrong to pretend that they are completely useless when really they are just not the silver bullet against delta and omicron that they  briefly seemed to be against the original virus. 

This is a good point. The question as I see it is how big of a difference does theoretical vaccination make? I don’t think it makes no difference, but does it make enough of a difference to make huge political and societal campaigns against a subgroup? I would find this point more valid if it took into account the fact that the “antivax” hate lumps in everyone, including those who have prior immunity which seems to offer equivalent protection as the vaccines do.

Again, I am not trying to make an antivax argument here or trying to claim the vaccines are pointless.  It now seems apparent that vaccines do not provide the slam dunk lessening of viral load or transmission and as such are looking more and more like a personal medical decision that mainly benefits the individual. If we are willing to be honest, we might also admit that many scorned and mocked antivaxxers have been suggesting this is the case all along. At the very least, I would imagine we could do away with blaming them for an endemic virus.

ETA: your argument also presumes that there is no downside or risk to vaccination which is also simply untrue. I believe that people should be free to weigh their medical choice ps without bullying and public shaming.

Edited by neuroticcat
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I will happily shame the people who want to “do their own research” and refuse to trust the word of the people who have actually been researching and studying this stuff for 20+ years, who then go running to the hospital begging for help when they get sick. Suddenly they trust science and medicine?

im not going searching because it’s late but I’ve seen research saying that “natural immunity” from the virus fades far faster than immunity from the vaccine. I have also seen an article about a new study showing that the antibodies from the vaccine fight the virus, while the antibodies from having Covid are shown to have the ability to become auto-antibodies attacking a person’s own healthy cells - which can cause autoimmune diseases. The vaccines were better at preventing infection with the earlier variants, meaning it was almost entirely circulation among the unvaccinated allowing mutations to develop. 

Travel is an issue, sure, but that points to the need to make vaccinations and prevention measures MORE widespread, IMO. 
 

I’d like to be compassionate to everyone but I am all out of compassion for the willfully ignorant, the conspiracy theorists, and the Facebook phDs. 

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I think after two years and many destroyed hopes we all have reached a breaking point. Soon enough we will see government and ethical advisor boards make difficult decisions. Either make the vaccine mandatory (not new in many countries that’s basically how we got rid of polio. No one asked then either.) or not, but at one point the measures we take now for stopping it spreading even in countries with a high vaccination + booster rate are more harmful to a society and it’s individuals long term. The mental strain we put on people, the reduced treatment capacities for all sorts of illnesses, burned out health care workers, complete professions being put on hold- meaning the employees not being able to provide sufficient health care, food and housing to their families + the mental and emotional strain, children being left behind in education and all of them kind of un-learning school as an environment and it’s hidden curriculums, the economic situation of countries and individuals that does correlate with physical and mental health as well …. All this will catch up with is in the future and it will have lingering negative effects. 
And while I do have a problem with anti-vaxxers  in general - at this point (IN MY POV) it’s less the anti-vaxxers in rich/western countries. They are not the reason for the new variants that our vaccinations sadly are less and less effective for. Delta and Omikron didn’t mutate in the US, Israel or Europe. No, we have failed to provide the vaccine in a double dosage quickly everywhere to make sure that poorer countries, countries with suboptimal distribution strategies or capacities and where many people life extremely close together and the chances to isolate and the access to health care and hygiene products is extremely difficult, could reach a vaccination standard that would stop making them an ideal breeding ground for mutations and restinances to happen. 
I am not blaming those countries, but it was very short sighted to ignore this obvious risk. And if we don’t shut down global travel completely (the staff on planes, ships…., Doctors Without Borders, international business trips, international sports tournaments…) or put everyone after arriving into a two week quarantine there is no chance of avoiding the next more infections mutation. 
The timespan of being able to test someone a 100% clear of infection after contact proven by a PCR test is still about 5-10 days. So whenever you release someone earlier there is still a risk you tested a tad too early. 
I loose patience with unvaccinated people even though I can accept they have the right to stay unvaccinated. And there are many strange exceptions that put the whole masked, vaccinated, tested concepts as absurdum. There are many problematic things to discuss. But I also think society means solidarity even if it doesn’t necessarily fit your wishes sometimes. So at that point I have no problem saying “ by all means, stay unvaccinated but then stay away from public life to not endanger me and my children or others”. If you opt out of the (sometimes unreasonably) rules of the society, laws, country you life in, that’s your right but than don’t whine. I am not longer willing to reduce my personal freedom because of their freedom. And very honestly, I do think people knowingly and willingly affecting their and others health negatively should have second place in line. Take the risk, take the consequence. But that’s a hard POV and doesn’t necessarily align with general logic arguments I do support. I still feel that way.

Edited by just_ordinary
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1 hour ago, Alisamer said:

im not going searching because it’s late but I’ve seen research saying that “natural immunity” from the virus fades far faster than immunity from the vaccine. 

Does it? From the booster recommendations it’s looking - to me- that it depends which vaccine. Johnson and Johnson they are recommending a booster after 2 months. Pfizer at 5 months. Moderna at 5 or 6. At the same time they are not requiring people who have tested positive for Covid to get retested for reinfection for 3 months after recovery. Or that’s what our school district is using as policy. But if the immunity wears off faster - should they be testing sooner after recovery? It’s all so overwhelming. 

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