Atlanta Spa Shooter Repudiated by his SBC Church

[yeahthatsme74]

23 hours ago, NonSOTDRT Teacher said:

This happened in my hometown. I’m shaken. 

This is my hometown also, though I've been gone for nearly two decades. I am just sick over it. 

[hoipolloi]

Some info on the shooter's SBC church:

 

[Black Aliss]

On 3/18/2021 at 4:23 PM, Giraffe said:

I was appalled at the police chief’s statement! The shooter “had a bad day”?!!! The shooter is a mass murderer! If he’d been any other skin tone the same police chief would be calling for the death penalty and calling him a domestic terrorist and call the murders hate crimes!!

If he'd been a POC he wouldn't have survived the traffic stop on his way to Florida. Especially since he attempted to evade the officers and they had to force him off the road. I'm surprised they didn't take him out for a nice meal before bringing him in.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

The reactions to this element of the story are kind of revealing as to how deeply the "Christian is another word for good person" narrative is ingrained in our culture. I've seen so many people upset that news outlets are reporting on his ties to the church because to them, mentioning that he goes to church = trying to make him sound like a nice kid. And I understand the impulse, but I would rather get the word out that a whooole lot of churches are full of shitty people spewing hateful rhetoric that can and does very easily lead to violence.

[MamaJunebug]

 

Spoiler

https://www.crabapplefbc.org/#

Long’s church makes a statement 

Edited March 20, 2021 by MamaJunebug

[Black Aliss]

1 hour ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

I've seen so many people upset that news outlets are reporting on his ties to the church because to them, mentioning that he goes to church = trying to make him sound like a nice kid.

What I've seen more of is Christians essentially using the "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy. As in, "why are they mentioning his church ties. His behavior is not representative of our faith!"

15 minutes ago, MamaJunebug said:

Long’s church makes a statement 

There should have been a disclaimer on that statement to the effect that a bunch of lawyers wrote this and it is not really representative of our teachings aganst LGBTQ+ people, feminists, democrats, or any other Others.

[MamaJunebug]

9 minutes ago, Black Aliss said:

What I've seen more of is Christians essentially using the "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy. As in, "why are they mentioning his church ties. His behavior is not representative of our faith!"

Then they really need to truly investigate their faith. IMHO, that means:

* asking members and clergy of non-Calvinist denominations how they interpret  the Bible 

* asking members of traditional Calvinist denominations who ordain women, accept gays et.al., the same thing

* listening to the answers and then asking their neo-Calvinist leaders to explain any discrepancies 

As I’ve mentioned ad nauseum, I’m listed as a member of one of the more conservative Lutheran denominations and as I have witnessed some disturbing slides into a creepy neo-Cal attitude in parts of the denomination, I’ve begun doing due diligence in what the Bible says etc., and thus I’m now “listed as a member” but with the vocal caveat that I disagree strongly with “leaders” on certain topics. We are put here to honor God and to grow, not to build silos... 

Head’s banging on my keyboard.  Heart’s breaking for the dead and injured and their survivors. 

Edited March 20, 2021 by MamaJunebug

[hoipolloi]

IMO, nearly everything the shooter did or believed, except for the murders, is EXACTLY in line with the beliefs & practices of Crabapple First Baptist Church. The shooter learned his lessons quite well.

[Black Aliss]

1 hour ago, hoipolloi said:

IMO, nearly everything the shooter did or believed, except for the murders, is EXACTLY in line with the beliefs & practices of Crabapple First Baptist Church. The shooter learned his lessons quite well.

And now, as predicted, they are playing the "No True Scotsman" card. From the NY Times:

Quote

The Southern Baptist church that counted the suspect in a series of deadly spa shootings as an active member said on Friday that the attacks were “the result of a sinful heart and depraved mind” and that it had begun the process of removing him from its membership.

“We want to be clear that this extreme and wicked act is nothing less than rebellion against our Holy God and His Word,” the statement from Crabapple First Baptist Church, in Milton, Ga., said. It added, “The shootings were a total repudiation of our faith and practice, and such actions are completely unacceptable and contrary to the gospel.”

 

[Dandruff]

4 hours ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

The reactions to this element of the story are kind of revealing as to how deeply the "Christian is another word for good person" narrative is ingrained in our culture. I've seen so many people upset that news outlets are reporting on his ties to the church because to them, mentioning that he goes to church = trying to make him sound like a nice kid. And I understand the impulse, but I would rather get the word out that a whooole lot of churches are full of shitty people spewing hateful rhetoric that can and does very easily lead to violence.

I think as long as they can characterize violence as righteous violence they're cool with it, but this one's a toughie.

[hoipolloi]

As usual, Katie Botkin nails it:

The intrepid @Hane did a read-through of Doug Wilson's "Ride, Sally, Ride" a few months ago -- much more at that link, if you're interested.

[Howl]

@MamaJunebug, thanks for posting the church's statement. 

I read through it -- basically a disclaimer/statement of faith/cover your ass mashup --  noted that Crabapple wanted to be perfectly crystal clear about who was up to what: 

Quote

No blame can be placed upon the victims...The women that he solicited for sexual acts are not responsible for his perverse sexual desires nor do they bear any blame in these murders.

This just insanely chafes my chaps.  Their statement tried to do all the heavy lifting on just God, compassionate God, loving God, Jesus yada yada but they just couldn't help themselves and had to take a huge shit on women, because, you know, WHORES.  

No other report, and I've seen many, has referenced these women as sex workers.  

 

 

[Giraffe]

16 minutes ago, Howl said:, thanks for posting the church's statement. 

No other report, and I've seen many, has referenced these women as sex workers.  

 

 

I haven’t either. I don’t recall which station it was but one of my local news outlets specifically said they weren’t sex workers. 

[apple1]

1 hour ago, Giraffe said:

I haven’t either. I don’t recall which station it was but one of my local news outlets specifically said they weren’t sex workers. 

(I know what I am about to say is stereotypical; please bear with me on that for just a moment).

I heard a news report on the radio giving names and ages of the victims. One 70-something, a couple 60-something, some in their 50s if I heard correctly. Those ages don't really fit with the sex worker label. Then there is the fact of assumptions of evidence not presented.

[MamaJunebug]

1 hour ago, Giraffe said:

I haven’t either. I don’t recall which station it was but one of my local news outlets specifically said they weren’t sex workers. 

Dammit I’m just getting angrier by the minute. 

ETA: Oh. My. Holy. Gd.

Reading about the victims, I found this about the bereaved brother of the man who was murdered:

Michels told NPR that Youngs Asian Massage was one of his brother's clients, and he believes he was working on their security system when the shooting took place. Citing the importance his faith places on forgiveness, Michels said he intends to establish a relationship with Long, and plans to send him a Bible, a rosary and a miraculous medal — though he noted it's "a very hard thing to do."

Class, Compare and contrast that to Crabapple “church’s” response to the news, here paraphrased: “Long is obviously not a Christian and he didn’t learn meanness here and we’re revoking his membership! Nasty man, go away!”

Now, which reaction is Jesus Christlike, class? 

Absolutely  no offense meant to anybody who is a Baptist of good will and a forgiving spirit, but dang!  The reactions of a bereaved man, contrasted with the reactions of a board of fundamentalist “men o’ Gawd” whose only loss has been of status & reputation: no wonder some churches are ripe for radical fundamentalist picking!

Or maybe this one has been this way forever.  I don’t know. I’m just still reeling. 

Edited March 20, 2021 by MamaJunebug

[Dandelion]

Hello, first time posting although I've been reading here a while. I have a genuine question, and please forgive me if it's dumb, but even if you could prove that the shooter didn't kill all those people because of racial hatred, wouldn't killing them just because they're women also make it a hate crime? Again, I hope that's not a dumb thing to ask, but it just seems weird to me that some of the headlines I've seen are trying so hard to make this out not to be a hate crime when it really seems like he hated them for being women and "causing him to stumble", at the very least.

Also, I grew up in purity culture in the SBC and it sure is a mindfuck. There is no way anything good could ever have come from comparing women who aren't virgins to literal trash and cups full of backwash. Which in no way gives the guy an excuse for what he did, but everyone in my youth group definitely heard crazy, hateful things that make something like this not really seem like a surprise when you hear about it. 

[Howl]

31 minutes ago, Dandelion said:

even if you could prove that the shooter didn't kill all those people because of racial hatred, wouldn't killing them just because they're women also make it a hate crime?

I had never thought of it in this way, but YES, a thousand times yes. 

[hoipolloi]

22 minutes ago, Dandelion said:

Hello, first time posting although I've been reading here a while.

Welcome, @Dandelion! You've asked good questions.

The problem, IMO, is that so many, including the media, have been going into all kinds of gyrations to avoid the realities of what's going on. So, they're not going to admit

• That Asian women can be targets of deadly racism because of their ethnic backgrounds, regardless of their work; 
• That women are killed just because they're women; 
• That good American True Christians™️ do this shit *because of their beliefs* and, what's more, there are a ton of other True Christians™️ in the US who hold the same beliefs as the shooter although they haven't committed mass murder.

Perhaps some things are changing. This article in today's New York Times is finally starting to delve into the incredible harm that beliefs like purity culture have caused so many people over the years:

Quote

 

But Mr. Long’s characterization of his motivations was also very recognizable to observers of evangelicalism and some evangelicals themselves. He seemed to have had a fixation on sexual temptation, one that can lead to despair among people who believe they are failing to follow the ideal of refraining from sex and even lust outside heterosexual marriage.

Combating pornography and improper sexual desire is an enduring theme within contemporary conservative evangelicalism. In churches, men partner in “accountability groups” to hold each other responsible for avoiding sexual temptation and other moral dangers. Others use “accountability software” like Covenant Eyes, which monitors screen activity and sends reports about pornography usage to a designated “ally.” Countless books promise spiritual and practical strategies for breaking free of the habit.

 

 

[Melissa1977]

48 minutes ago, Dandelion said:

even if you could prove that the shooter didn't kill all those people because of racial hatred, wouldn't killing them just because they're women also make it a hate crime?

Violence aginst women isn't considered hate crime. Patriarchy rules.

[Myomy]

This is an article about the treatment program Long supposedly attended.  https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2021/03/19/georgia-spa-shooter-was-a-patient-at-an-evangelical-sex-addiction-clinic/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&fbclid=IwAR3Xn1SCTknlglHQu41YxRhFHJaoum4MkpSJQEZDexsCQM2KrkLKvprUz5I

And this is a link to the treatment center that was identified.  https://hopequestgroup.org/

[Katzchen24]

There's reporting around the Sheriff who made the original statements about Long having a bad day. The Daily Beans stated that the Sheriff himself was a racist who promoted Covid-19 as the Chinese virus. I found this story on The Guardian website which reiterates similar stuff. 

Spoiler

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/17/jay-baker-bad-day-t-shirt-atlanta-spa-shooting

Australian media has been called out time and again for using the "But he was a good/hardworking/friendly/righteous Christian guy....." tropes in their reporting of women and children murdered by their (former) partners. It's inevitable that a lot of the focus will be on the perpetrator of a violent crime but this always ends up with the unwritten insinuation that the victims must have deserved it, or incited him or pushed him in some way.  

I'm not criticising media which calls out Long and the hateful beliefs he was indoctrinated with, because it's needed. It's just sad that between this Sheriff and the attention on Long, the murdered women have all but disappeared. Like so many women murdered in Australia, they needed protection but didn't get it.

[MamaJunebug]

12 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

Class, Compare and contrast that to Crabapple “church’s” response to the news, here paraphrased: “Long is obviously not a Christian and he didn’t learn meanness here and we’re revoking his membership! Nasty man, go away!”

Quotiong myelf because yesterday in my evident naivete I posted the above, astounded that the Roman Catholic brother of the dead Roman Catholic security man was sending the shooter information on forgiveness and miracles while the Baptist church was washing their hands of him.

I've started reading "My Girls," Todd Fisher's incredible memoir and Valentine to his mom and sister, Debbie Reynolds and Carrie Fisher, who died within 24 hours of each other in late 2016.  In the first chapter, Todd tells of his grandma, who had no use for show business in part because her Nazarene Baptist church removed her from membership for having a daughter who was a performer.  His grandma still loved her daughter fiercely.  Debbie Reynolds devotion to her children very evidently came from her own mother's love and devotion to Debbie and her own brother and their dad.

But takeaway: Apparently in some Baptist sects. there's no forgiveness -- just expulsion. Dang.  Somehow it grotesquely all begins to make sense that this kid would combine what he's been taught  with his normal desires and wind up  killing innocent and defenseless people. 

What a totally sh|tty situation.

[Black Aliss]

7 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Violence aginst women isn't considered hate crime. Patriarchy rules.

At the federal level a hate crime is a crime motivated by bias against the victim’s perceived or actual race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, or disability.  Most states that have a hate crime statute limit it to bias against race, color, and religion; some include sexual orientation, gender, gender identity and/or disability. (source: https://www.justice.gov/hatecrimes/learn-about-hate-crimes)

Here's a handy chart showing what, if anything, constitutes a hate crime in each of the 50 states:https://www.naacp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Hate-Crimes-laws-by-state.pdf

 

 

 

[Black Aliss]

7 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Perhaps some things are changing. This article in today's New York Times is finally starting to delve into the incredible harm that beliefs like purity culture have caused so many people over the years:

From that article: 

Quote

In churches, men partner in “accountability groups” to hold each other responsible for avoiding sexual temptation and other moral dangers. Others use “accountability software” like Covenant Eyes, which monitors screen activity and sends reports about pornography usage to a designated “ally.”

Isn't Covenant Eyes the nanny software Stevejovah mentioned they had on all their computers? I assumed it monitored all manner of online activities but this makes it sound like it's just for tracking porn site visits.

Oops, no, they said they use Accountable2You. It was multiple commenters who said they use Covenant Eyes, and Sarah said they had tried it but it didn't play well with their Macs, that she had to keep reinstalling it.  

On 3/18/2021 at 11:25 AM, hoipolloi said:

OT - my apologies to all.

I intended to merge a new topic with this older one but completely screwed up in the process. Sigh. 

@hoipolloi could you maybe change the topic title to something more accurate? There is still no evidence that I am aware of that Long's father was the church youth pastor, which is not to say that he doesn't have odious beliefs.

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, Black Aliss said:

could you maybe change the topic title to something more accurate?

Agree with your suggestion so I updated it to reflect (1) the shooter's church affiliation, and (2) the fact that his now-former church has repudiated him & his actions.

ETA: Covenant Eyes, Accountable 2You, etc., etc. Amazing how such righteous True Christians™️ need to have software installed to keep themselves from visiting porn sites. Somehow, in our godless household, this has never been necessary.

Edited March 21, 2021 by hoipolloi