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Erin & Chad 7: Reckless Behavior in a Pandemic Has Consequences


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Johannah

The sad thing is, maybe Gil actually hates working, for himself or for a corporation. Maybe he would have been a great stay-at-home dad and primary childcare provider. But in their effed up worldview that’s not an option. Just another example of how patriarchy actually stifles and suffocates everyone, not just women (although women certainly receive the brunt of the oppression). But men would also be more liberated by the abolition of a patriarchal system. 

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Christ on a bike. Buying books irrespective of content, just to use as decor, is one of those things that feels so emblematic of end stage capitalism and the decline of the Enlightenment. 

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GuineaPigCourtship

Didn't they choose this path, though? I didn't think they were raised in a quiverfull patriarchy like second generation fundies.

Then again men as providers is such a prevalent mindset. People at my husband's work have asked him if he dislikes that I make more money than he does. He is always shocked and says "uh, no, I'm glad we have the income we do regardless of who earns what."

And men as caretakers are looked down on. We discussed which last name to give our daughter and ultimately he gave me the choice and said he was fine with my name. I gave her his last name because I think it will be easier for him being involved in activities with her if they share a name, less weird for me to have a different one.

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Lgirlrocks
22 hours ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

Didn't they choose this path, though? I didn't think they were raised in a quiverfull patriarchy like second generation fundies.

Then again men as providers is such a prevalent mindset. People at my husband's work have asked him if he dislikes that I make more money than he does. He is always shocked and says "uh, no, I'm glad we have the income we do regardless of who earns what."

And men as caretakers are looked down on. We discussed which last name to give our daughter and ultimately he gave me the choice and said he was fine with my name. I gave her his last name because I think it will be easier for him being involved in activities with her if they share a name, less weird for me to have a different one.

A real man won’t care who makes more money or who does what chore. Even though my dad was the one who cute the grass my mom would go out there and do it if he couldn’t. My dad also help with laundry and cooking. None of that changed his manliness. 
the Bates did choose this path. Same as the duggers. Not sure at what point the Bates got in. The duggars drank the koolaid when they were starting to homeschool. 

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Melissa1977
3 hours ago, Lgirlrocks said:

Not sure at what point the Bates got in

When they got married, Kelly herself apparently decided not to use birth control and to leave it up to God. I suppose they were already fundies or going to a fundie church. 

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rebeccawriter01
24 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

When they got married, Kelly herself apparently decided not to use birth control and to leave it up to God. I suppose they were already fundies or going to a fundie church. 

They went to a country but relatively mainstream church east of Knoxville. They got married in December and Kelly Jo graduated (already pregnant with Zach) after the following semester. That's why I always laugh at her comments that she was completely focused on her career. She was majoring in human services with a minor in special education. While there are jobs out there such as some in healthcare, most would have required higher degrees or more specialization. However, she has said she can't stand blood or vomit so I am thinking she was going more toward the social work route with it rather than healthcare. Either way, she was never going to be a corporate executive on Wall Street or something similar that most think of when people say they are career minded or focused on career. That's more of that IBLP talk seeping through that if you aren't a mother who is home with your children 24/7 - except to make another baby - then you are selfish and focused on your career. 

I've always assumed it was Kelly Jo who moved them from just Conservative Christian to Fundamentalist. As with her current behavior of being besties with some of her grown daughters, she has always exhibited that quality of looking for some path in her life. I've always thought that stemmed from her own childhood somehow and something she felt was lacking. Gil went along for the ride because it placed him in the role of leader. 

I would be curious what Gil's parents and siblings really think of Kelly Jo. I know Gil's sister said that about them (Kelly Jo, Gil, and Kids) being different. Sometimes you can sense a bit of tension between Kelly Jo and Mama Jane. I know Bill and Jane are old fashioned and go to church each Sunday, but they also seem rather practical and normal. Other than being annoyed with the noise and the bad behavior, you know they must have opinions of the family and situation. 

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Melissa1977
7 minutes ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

I would be curious what Gil's parents and siblings really think of Kelly Jo. I know Gil's sister said that about them (Kelly Jo, Gil, and Kids) being different. Sometimes you can sense a bit of tension between Kelly Jo and Mama Jane. I know Bill and Jane are old fashioned and go to church each Sunday, but they also seem rather practical and normal. Other than being annoyed with the noise and the bad behavior, you know they must have opinions of the family and situation. 

Jane and Bill are very conservative, but not quiverful. In some videos of Bates visiting the farm, she looked horrified (I don't blame her! I would need a valium if I had 19 grandchildren!).

But apart from what can be seen on videos, I suspect some of the family tension comes from the way the kids were living back in the day. For a middle-class, average grandma, witnessing how miserable the kids were eating, how little the house was, how any of them had healthcare, and on the top of that her son leaving a good job... I doubt Jane was fine with that. She has a strong personality and I she and Bill seem the kind of people that earn their own money, so Gil's-grifting-business may have been considered a shame for them.

Who knows how many times Jane and Bill had to give Gil money. It's a total speculation, but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

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Angelface

Alyssa is supposedly very close to Mama Jane. I wish that Mama Jane would impart some sound advice to Alyssa regarding four kids being plenty, send them to school and get a part time job perhaps in the school office as I think that Alyssa would be much happier if she followed said advice. 

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Satan'sFortress
On 4/12/2021 at 2:02 PM, HereticHick said:

I only today noticed that in Erin's latest home redecorating spree, she is storing books backwards (presumably to present a more Instagrammable neutral look).  Erin, please don't do that. It makes Librarians like me die a little inside. : )

 

image.png.900b67877bdff9a6a7685faeb3025c79.png

https://www.instagram.com/p/CNF3CokrEtk/

I'm going to choose to believe that she turned them that way so that her followers wouldn't see that she had copies of The Feminine Mystique, The Handmaid's Tale, Rubyfruit Jungle,  Farenheit 451, The Origin of Species,  etc., etc.

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Lgirlrocks

One of Gil’s brothers has four or five kids and they home schooled them. The two oldest are in college for acting. They seem more mainstream Christian. Papa bill and mama Jane probably don’t mind large families if you can take care of them. Gil and Kelly were neglecting their kids. 

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rebeccawriter01
4 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Jane and Bill are very conservative, but not quiverful. In some videos of Bates visiting the farm, she looked horrified (I don't blame her! I would need a valium if I had 19 grandchildren!).

But apart from what can be seen on videos, I suspect some of the family tension comes from the way the kids were living back in the day. For a middle-class, average grandma, witnessing how miserable the kids were eating, how little the house was, how any of them had healthcare, and on the top of that her son leaving a good job... I doubt Jane was fine with that. She has a strong personality and I she and Bill seem the kind of people that earn their own money, so Gil's-grifting-business may have been considered a shame for them.

Who knows how many times Jane and Bill had to give Gil money. It's a total speculation, but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

I would bet they have had to bail him out of financial jams a few times. I found it telling - beyond her obvious disdain for the mess and chaos they bring - that in her wondering who would host when she could no longer "lift the turkey," I noticed she didn't mention Kelly Jo. She always has several of the girls cooking with her (Alyssa, Erin, Whitney, Michaela etc.) but never Kelly Jo. She said she knew Michaela would love to host but if she was living in Michigan or something it was too far to go. Then she said Erin would love to host but her house was too small. 

In the episode before Tori's wedding where they were at the farm for Thanksgiving, Kelly Jo saunters in and says it is good all the girls are in one spot so she can make the final wedding plans. Alyssa jabs that she hasn't even seen an invite. Mama Jane looks seriously pissed that Kelly Jo is interrupting the meal planning and cooking to film this segment. I know my grandmother on my father's side wasn't shy about kicking our butts out of the kitchen if we weren't cooking. My mother listening to me tell her about how mean my cousin was being (still is a brat by the way) and my grandmother said she needed workers not talkers and move along. I can easily see Mama Jane feeling annoyed with Kelly Jo who seems as insensitive as the children can be in that house. I know Kelly Jo has told us she doesn't cook well, but the woman could be pouring drinks, breaking up the ice, or even carrying dishes out. Instead the kids are assigned that and Kelly Jo appears to do nothing while Gil's family does the bulk. 

I believe this was also the year that showed Papa Bill making grits and Kelly Jo being the last one to wake up and get ready. I doubt Mama Jane was thrilled with that either. Then there was the year when Kelly Jo told Carlin and the kids to decorate the tables. Carlin was walking on the table in her shoes that she claimed were new (they were still telling us that they only shopped for clothes at thrift stores so "new" shoes were a stretch). Mama Jane called her out on it. There should have been a calling out by Kelly Jo - even filmed later - about Carlin lying to her grandmother. 

I know the show frames the tension that Mama Jane feels as comic relief, but I still sense that Mama Jane isn't really a fan of Kelly Jo's style of parenting. 

5 hours ago, Angelface said:

Alyssa is supposedly very close to Mama Jane. I wish that Mama Jane would impart some sound advice to Alyssa regarding four kids being plenty, send them to school and get a part time job perhaps in the school office as I think that Alyssa would be much happier if she followed said advice. 

When she was pregnant with Zoey, Alyssa got a semi lecture from Mama Jane that she was just like Kelly Jo and would end up with 19. However, Mama Jane softened it and agreed with Whitney that they should have a boy too. 

I hope that off camera Mama Jane does talk to these girls and women. She is a good example that working or limiting family size doesn't mean you are a heathen. 

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FrumpyAtheist

That scene in the kitchen where Mama Jane ribs Alyssa about having so many kids so fast like her mom stuck with me, too. Alyssa seemed really defensive and quick to say she wouldn't do that. I know it's been talked about that Alyssa is close with Mama Jane, naming her daughter after her and even wearing some of her old clothes. So you'd think that she'd hopefully listen when Mama Jane expresses disapproval at the SAHM, quiverfull lifestyle. I guess it's very hard for Alyssa to get opposing advice from her parents and a grandparent. I also wonder if she and Mama Jane have ever had an open, in-depth conversation about Alyssa's life choices or whether these are just small comments made in passing over the years that therefore haven't really sunk in with Alyssa.

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SassyPants
11 hours ago, Lgirlrocks said:

One of Gil’s brothers has four or five kids and they home schooled them. The two oldest are in college for acting. They seem more mainstream Christian. Papa bill and mama Jane probably don’t mind large families if you can take care of them. Gil and Kelly were neglecting their kids. 

I doubt many parents would agree with their adult children spawning 19 children. No 2 people could adequately care and provide for 19 children. I doubt many on this the planet could comfortably support such.

19 children isn’t even a family, IMO. In a country where there are lots of options available to prevent, such procreation is irresponsible. 

Edited by SassyPants
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Lgirlrocks
4 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I doubt many parents would agree with their adult children spawning 19 children. No 2 people could adequately care and provide for 19 children. I doubt many on this the planet could comfortably support such.

19 children isn’t even a family, IMO. In a country where there are lots of options available to prevent, such procreation is irresponsible. 

I agree. It would be different if they raised x amount of kids then decided to adopt or foster and counted those in their number of kids and somehow got to 19. They say they give their kids plenty of attention, just like the duggars, but you can’t. 

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Jackie3
1 hour ago, Lgirlrocks said:

It would be different if they raised x amount of kids then decided to adopt or foster and counted those in their number of kids and somehow got to 19.

I don't know. It seems indisputable that you can't give adequate attention to 19, and it's difficult to properly feed and clothe them. Kelly and Gil certainly didn't. 

Adopted and foster kids don't deserve this neglect anymore than bio kids do, imo. No kid does!

Edited by Jackie3
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nelliebelle1197
2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I doubt many parents would agree with their adult children spawning 19 children. No 2 people could adequately care and provide for 19 children. I doubt many on this the planet could comfortably support such.

19 children isn’t even a family, IMO. In a country where there are lots of options available to prevent, such procreation is irresponsible. 

I mean, it is family, it's just a ridiculously large family that no two people can adequately care for without a massive extended network or servants.

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Lgirlrocks
1 hour ago, Jackie3 said:

I don't know. It seems indisputable that you can't give adequate attention to 19, and it's difficult to properly feed and clothe them. Kelly and Gil certainly didn't. 

Adopted and foster kids don't deserve this neglect anymore than bio kids do, imo. No kid does!

I didn’t mean it like that. Sorry if it came out that way. I meant if they raised six kids. Once those kids left the house they adopted or fostered more. And once those kids were gone they continued to Forster or adopt. Then it would be different. 

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SassyPants
1 hour ago, Lgirlrocks said:

I didn’t mean it like that. Sorry if it came out that way. I meant if they raised six kids. Once those kids left the house they adopted or fostered more. And once those kids were gone they continued to Forster or adopt. Then it would be different. 

Good point. Maintaining a constant number but ever changing group of kids in the home is very different than having 15, 16, 17... kids in the home at the same time requiring active parenting-

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Jackie3
6 hours ago, Lgirlrocks said:

I didn’t mean it like that. Sorry if it came out that way. I meant if they raised six kids. Once those kids left the house they adopted or fostered more. And once those kids were gone they continued to Forster or adopt. Then it would be different. 

I see, but it's really almost impossible to do that. It takes a good 25 years to birth (or adopt) 6 kids! You'd be done raising kids when you are in your 80s!

If you start at 20, you'd be done with your birth kids by 45 at the very earliest. Then you'd be done with the second group of six by age 60, and the third by 85! (Of course, if the foster/adopt kids are roughly same age, you might be able to reach the finish line by age 80).

That's not for me, thanks!

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Bluebirdbluebell

People who foster kids, don't always adopt for reasons to have do with the nature of foster care. You might not start at birth. Kids will arrive at all different ages 17 and under. Then you might not adopt the children you foster for various reasons.  One reason is intention may be to eventually reunite a child with their birth family. 

A lot of foster families have had dozens of kids over the years, but not all at once. The kids may come and go, based on age, family situation, etc.

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Jackie3
9 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

People who foster kids, don't always adopt for reasons to have do with the nature of foster care. You might not start at birth. Kids will arrive at all different ages 17 and under. Then you might not adopt the children you foster for various reasons.  One reason is intention may be to eventually reunite a child with their birth family. 

A lot of foster families have had dozens of kids over the years, but not all at once. The kids may come and go, based on age, family situation, etc.

Yes, I know about how the foster care system works. But since OP was talking about "raising" sets of kids, I assumed she meant fostering young ones, not teens. There's barely time in life to raise three different groups of young children, and it doesn't leave time for much else!

Edited by Jackie3
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SassyPants
11 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

Yes, I know about how the foster care system works. But since OP was talking about "raising" sets of kids, I assumed she meant fostering young ones, not teens. There's barely time in life to raise three different groups of young children, and it doesn't leave time for much else!

And thank God for that limiting factor!

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OHFL2009

I was watching HGTV last night and the designer was staging a den/living room that had a bunch of open shelves, and she goes "If you want a cheap and easy way to fill some space, go to the thrift store and buy hardback books that fit your color scheme. It doesn't matter what the titles are, just turn them around so the spine isn't showing and no one will know!" Apparently Erin is a trend setter 😆

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SassyPants
12 minutes ago, OHFL2009 said:

I was watching HGTV last night and the designer was staging a den/living room that had a bunch of open shelves, and she goes "If you want a cheap and easy way to fill some space, go to the thrift store and buy hardback books that fit your color scheme. It doesn't matter what the titles are, just turn them around so the spine isn't showing and no one will know!" Apparently Erin is a trend setter 😆

With a bit of extra time and money. If she has extra of both, I hope she’d buy children’s books and read them to her kids.

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JermajestyDuggar
18 minutes ago, OHFL2009 said:

I was watching HGTV last night and the designer was staging a den/living room that had a bunch of open shelves, and she goes "If you want a cheap and easy way to fill some space, go to the thrift store and buy hardback books that fit your color scheme. It doesn't matter what the titles are, just turn them around so the spine isn't showing and no one will know!" Apparently Erin is a trend setter 😆

I would love it if Erin grabbed a Kama Sutra book because it matched her color scheme and didn’t realize what it was. 

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OHFL2009
10 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

With a bit of extra time and money. If she has extra of both, I hope she’d buy children’s books and read them to her kids.

We have seen her post photos of her and Chad reading to their kids and photos of bookshelves in the kids rooms. I was referring to the discussion above where she had a whole set of books faced backwards on the desk in her bedroom. 

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