Maxwell 46: Relegating the Kids' Table to the Vestibule

[Black Aliss]

22 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I'm telling you if Steve goes first I will not be shocked if within a year Teri is in mom jeans, sucking down Pepsi, and the bible gets a hell of a lot less use.

I believe you just answered the question of why Steve wants to live as long as possible.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

7 hours ago, Paperplate said:

? Whoah!

I knew the pregnancy rate amongst teens is crazy high in the US but hearing about local peak like that makes it all sound so bleak.

It is bleak. The inner city deservedly gets a lot of attention, but poor rural white kids are also disadvantaged. They are "advantaged," of course by their skin color, but that's about it. Girls won't carry condoms because then they will look like they planned it. Nearly every girl my daughter knew considered their 1st sexual experience to be sexual assault. They will not always use Planned Parenthood because if anyone sees them go in they will think they are getting an abortion (sadly true). I am a Christian, but far-right evangelicals put pressure on everyone in places like this. All kids know about education is that it is hugely expensive (no understanding of financial aid and parents are often unwilling to give tax information) and that a "good job" is probably beyond them. Some truly do make it. There are some really great teachers, often they are from the area which gives them better credibility. No idea how to distinguish Harvard from Fly-by-night-for-profit-career-"college". The later is seen as "good" because it's short and job-focused and, wait for it, they advertise on tv. It's very hard for 1st generation kids of any race, creed, or color, to make it to success. Remember, this is the type area a lot of Gothard/ATI/IBLP folks gravitate toward. Pool services. Lawn care. Pet grooming and other businesses run by families are based out here. We have a ton of Amish too, who are over-idolized (they are a cult). Lots of different influences. The only foreign-born people most see are their doctors who are usually from abroad. I could go on and on.

[allyisyourpally5]

I have to say I had a horrible image in my head with the bolded “maybe soon” - I immediately had an image of Jones Town. Which is insane. In all honesty I do not see any kind of whacky suicide plan in the Maxwells future. 
I do however worry about the mental health of the three daughters. I worry that one day Steve will really go too far in some form. I am concerned that the depression will finally become to much for Teri.

Im sure what they really meant, was that they believe the rapture / second coming whatever could truly be in their lifetime. Signs of “doomsday” have always been around though. This isn’t the first pandemic, it’s not the first time countries have been at war and fighting with each other, it’s not the first time people haven’t believed in God (I realise though that’s it’s relatively new for this to be acceptable) .....take a breather Maxwells.

They really need to be more careful how they phrase things. If I heard a person say that to family or especially a child, that “maybe we’ll be in Heaven soon” - alarm bells would be strongly ringing in my head. 
 

Run grandchildren run!

[IReallyAmHopewell]

On 3/22/2021 at 12:16 PM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I'm telling you if Steve goes first I will not be shocked if within a year Teri is in mom jeans, sucking down Pepsi, and the bible gets a hell of a lot less use.

I believe you just answered the question of why Steve wants to live as long as possible.

THAT is when we see how successfully indoctrinated the sons--especially Nathan, are!

 

[treemom]

Back to gap year for just a moment, there is another key reason is uncommon in the US.  Our kids can’t work in many countries without a more formal emigration from the US.  Being in the EU or the Commonwealth offers a lot more opportunity to pick waitressing gigs etc. in cities and explore on off days, or work sometimes during a year long backpacking trip.

Our kids either have to be supported by parents, stretch/break the rules of a tourist visa by doing remote work, break their visa by working for employers who don’t care, or get a work visa. 
 

To do it legally means either getting a work visa or having support for year.  It’s a lot harder to do an OE/Gap year as an American.  Both of those are highly privileged things to do as a young adult in America.  It is why I referred to it as giving my son a gap year.

Edited March 23, 2021 by treemom

[PennySycamore]

@Hane,  when I went to Furman as a non-traditional adult (Ie, older, mature student),  those of us in their first semester were asked to attend a presentation by the dean on how to adjust to college life.  Frosh orientations were not long over and the dean mentioned that one young woman student who had been homeschooled had not even lasted through orientation week.  Sure there are a lot of things that might be frightening about living in a dorm and having to get to classes on time and so on, but a kid who can't even last through orientation week has been failed by their parents.  

[CyborgKin]

At sixteen I would try to get my PACE work done by lunch and spend the afternoon on games programming.  So long ago.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

And now.... BENCH SEATING for the kids' table in the vestibule.

Every time they come up with some breathtakingly boring post like this I think of this clip (36 seconds in)

 

[smittykins]

22 hours ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:It is bleak. The inner city deservedly gets a lot of attention, but poor rural white kids are also disadvantaged.

I’ve read that teen pregnancy in rural areas is high for the simple reason that there’s precious little for kids to do(often no recreation centers, community sports programs, or very many part-time jobs).

[Hane]

15 minutes ago, smittykins said:

I’ve read that teen pregnancy in rural areas is high for the simple reason that there’s precious little for kids to do(often no recreation centers, community sports programs, or very many part-time jobs).

I’ve seen the same reason given for teen drug or alcohol abuse in these areas. (Of course, being the nerd I am, my first thought was, “But don’t they have books to read?”)

[sparkles]

Gap years are one thing that can be really helpful in helping kids adjust to college or at least give them some direction, but one thing I learned through my daughter's experiences is that, despite the narrative that's pushed by so many, college is not the be-all end-all and we will probably be seeing a major shift away from it in the near future as the main path to success, especially given the cost of college and the crippling debt many incur as well as the changing work landscape.

My daughter, who I mentioned earlier, was definitely on the college trajectory because that's kind of what was expected of her—and what she expected of herself. She attended a highly ranked liberal arts college (emphasis on the liberal in more ways that one) with a major/minor in fields that would have absolutely required post-grad degrees just to get her in the door for a job. She loved college life, but unfortunately she was undone by medical issues (recurring infection resulting from minor surgery) that kept landing her in the hospital and/or requiring her to come home for treatment. By the end of two years, she was only able to complete one semester, so she decided to withdraw and rethink her plans. She ended up getting a couple of retail jobs, moved to Brooklyn and by chance, after working with the tech people at one job, discovered something she had an interest in—coding (this was right on the cusp of coding become A Thing). We ended up taking some of her college funds, had her enroll in a 12-week bootcamp and subsidized her living expenses for the duration, and before she graduated she had a job lined up.

Six and a half years later, she still has no college degree, but she's doing something she really loves and excels at, has a career with endless growth potential, and she recently got a new senior level job with a great company and is making an insane amount of money, plus a full benefits package. It's not remotely what any of us thought would be her future, but things couldn't have turned out better. Her experience completely changed my opinion on the outsized emphasis we place on college vs other kinds of education. It's not for everyone, either temperamentally or for a career path, and we as a nation need to re-evaluate the mindset that says it is. 

Edited because paragraphs are your friend. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by sparkles

[MamaJunebug]

23 hours ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:

It is bleak. The inner city deservedly gets a lot of attention, but poor rural white kids are also disadvantaged. They are "advantaged," of course by their skin color, but that's about it. Girls won't carry condoms because then they will look like they planned it. Nearly every girl my daughter knew considered their 1st sexual experience to be sexual assault. They will not always use Planned Parenthood because if anyone sees them go in they will think they are getting an abortion (sadly true). I am a Christian, but far-right evangelicals put pressure on everyone in places like this. All kids know about education is that it is hugely expensive (no understanding of financial aid and parents are often unwilling to give tax information) and that a "good job" is probably beyond them. Some truly do make it. There are some really great teachers, often they are from the area which gives them better credibility. No idea how to distinguish Harvard from Fly-by-night-for-profit-career-"college". The later is seen as "good" because it's short and job-focused and, wait for it, they advertise on tv. It's very hard for 1st generation kids of any race, creed, or color, to make it to success. Remember, this is the type area a lot of Gothard/ATI/IBLP folks gravitate toward. Pool services. Lawn care. Pet grooming and other businesses run by families are based out here. We have a ton of Amish too, who are over-idolized (they are a cult). Lots of different influences. The only foreign-born people most see are their doctors who are usually from abroad. I could go on and on.

Thank you for posting about this.  The people in these situations are so under recognized, and it’s to our peril!!

A few years ago I started studying in classes at several locations in nice parts of the metro. I was thunderstruck by the number of wealthy fellow students who had disdain bordering upon contempt for “white trash” and their affinity for far-right politics. 
 

I spoke up about the lack of working-class jobs available as factories abandoned the US, the sense of pessimism and hopelessness that’s all over the place in those communities, localized and among those in urban areas as well. 
 

My words were listened to politely and immediately dismissed. This would’ve been ca. 2014, 2015. That’s what I have to say about that. 

[PennySycamore]

@IReallyAmHopewell,  I knew that Nurse Phyllis Crane had a frisky side, but I'll never quite see her in the same way again!

(I wish we had a emoji that conveyed both love and laughter because that Calendar Girls trailer deserved one.)

[postscript]

2 hours ago, sparkles said:

Gap years are one thing that can be really helpful in helping kids adjust to college or at least give them some direction, but one thing I learned through my daughter's experiences is that, despite the narrative that's pushed by so many, college is not the be-all end-all and we will probably be seeing a major shift away from it in the near future as the main path to success, especially given the cost of college and the crippling debt many incur as well as the changing work landscape.

My daughter, who I mentioned earlier, was definitely on the college trajectory because that's kind of what was expected of her—and what she expected of herself. She attended a highly ranked liberal arts college (emphasis on the liberal in more ways that one) with a major/minor in fields that would have absolutely required post-grad degrees just to get her in the door for a job. She loved college life, but unfortunately she was undone by medical issues (recurring infection resulting from minor surgery) that kept landing her in the hospital and/or requiring her to come home for treatment. By the end of two years, she was only able to complete one semester, so she decided to withdraw and rethink her plans. She ended up getting a couple of retail jobs, moved to Brooklyn and by chance, after working with the tech people at one job, discovered something she had an interest in—coding (this was right on the cusp of coding become A Thing). We ended up taking some of her college funds, had her enroll in a 12-week bootcamp and subsidized her living expenses for the duration, and before she graduated she had a job lined up.

Six and a half years later, she still has no college degree, but she's doing something she really loves and excels at, has a career with endless growth potential, and she recently got a new senior level job with a great company and is making an insane amount of money, plus a full benefits package. It's not remotely what any of us thought would be her future, but things couldn't have turned out better. Her experience completely changed my opinion on the outsized emphasis we place on college vs other kinds of education. It's not for everyone, either temperamentally or for a career path, and we as a nation need to re-evaluate the mindset that says it is. 

Edited because paragraphs are your friend. 

Absolutely agree, and I’m saying that as someone who values education and comes from a family that pushed education as the way to get ahead. College is a wonderful thing, but it isn’t right for everyone.

I grew up in an affluent area, and live in a town that’s home to a major US university. The kids, both in my era and now, are all pushed to go to college straight out of high school. The few who take a gap year are pushed to use it for something meaningful that will add value to a resume. They are then pushed to go to grad school without getting work experience. They aren’t taught to fail, or that life frequently presents challenges that are out of your control.  Many of them would do better if they either took a gap year or some sort of technical course. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by postscript
Missing word.

[MamaJunebug]

Color me underwhelmed about the folding benches.  I have a couple of tables of the same design and they're not very stable.  What I liked to do when big groups were around is: add tables to the main table, thus creating more space for the food and dishes AND more space around the table for chairs.

But the perspectives from the dining-area photos of SS Fathership Maxwell probably are skewed, and there wouldn't be room enough to enlarge the table itself. 

[Bastet]

3 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

Thank you for posting about this.  The people in these situations are so under recognized, and it’s to our peril!!

A few years ago I started studying in classes at several locations in nice parts of the metro. I was thunderstruck by the number of wealthy fellow students who had disdain bordering upon contempt for “white trash” and their affinity for far-right politics. 
 

I spoke up about the lack of working-class jobs available as factories abandoned the US, the sense of pessimism and hopelessness that’s all over the place in those communities, localized and among those in urban areas as well. 
 

My words were listened to politely and immediately dismissed. This would’ve been ca. 2014, 2015. That’s what I have to say about that. 

Grr!  Those rich students owe some of their wealth to decades of underpaying working class folk. The tragedy of those Trump voters is that they blamed the wrong people for their predicament. It surely wasn’t the fault of minorities or immigrants. 

It is very much to the advantage of the super wealthy to encourage low income white racism, and they have been doing it since the Civil War. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

Grr!  Those rich students owe some of their wealth to decades of underpaying working class folk. The tragedy of those Trump voters is that they blamed the wrong people for their predicament. It surely wasn’t the fault of minorities or immigrants. 

It is very much to the advantage of the super wealthy to encourage low income white racism, and they have been doing it since the Civil War. 

Actually since before the Civil War. I happened across this article from 2017 this week. It's about how slavery was an institution that really benefitted rich white people and not poorer whites. 

[ADoyle90815]

4 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

@IReallyAmHopewell,  I knew that Nurse Phyllis Crane had a frisky side, but I'll never quite see her in the same way again!

(I wish we had a emoji that conveyed both love and laughter because that Calendar Girls trailer deserved one.)

I forgot she was in that movie, and it's still one of my favorite movies.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

6 hours ago, smittykins said:

I’ve read that teen pregnancy in rural areas is high for the simple reason that there’s precious little for kids to do(often no recreation centers, community sports programs, or very many part-time jobs).

There are fast-food jobs here, there is a huge Kroger and farther away a Walmart. Most of the girls' mothers were teens when they had their first child. There is constant teasing about being a virgin and teasing about sexual orientation for being a virgin. It is also just the culture of families with no history of going to college. You get a good job with overtime. There is no real thought about what you are suited to. When 1st generation college students say what they want to be it's very, very often "doctor" or "lawyer"--those are the status job.Today nursing is the big "savior" job--everyone gets pushed into nursing if they can pass any math. Even if they don't want it they see "Full-time for weekend only work" and agree. The reality is often very different. Most truly have no idea what an engineer, for example, does, let alone any engineering specialty. Kids above this rank go into the two/two program and get "some"college credit in the state program--some of these kids DO make it. Career Center is another good option, but it takes the motivation to sign up. Criminal justice is a big draw--all want to be CSIs, all end up as Mall Cop type jobs. My daughter (now in college) chose cosmetology. She out-earns that in her current job with regular working hours. Early Childhood Education is another popular Career Center program. It equates to day care center employee. The kids who do the engineering, computer, and automotive [the "male" programs] start out with a reasonable job. The girls do not. It's just like the inner city only with white skin.

[FloraKitty35]

On 3/23/2021 at 12:04 PM, IReallyAmHopewell said:

poor rural white kids are also disadvantaged. They are "advantaged," of course by their skin color, but that's about it.

I work as a substitute in a school district that fits that description to a T.  

[IReallyAmHopewell]

37 minutes ago, FloraKitty35 said:

I work as a substitute in a school district that fits that description to a T.  

Thank you!

[Caroline]

On 3/21/2021 at 7:29 AM, allyisyourpally5 said:

I never saw this in reverse (ie Americans my age spending the summer working in Europe). 

When I was in college it was fashionable to study abroad during your third year of college especially if you were majoring in another language.  That was an expensive thing to do back in the 70's so there weren't many who did it.  I saved money and really sacrificed to do it because I really wanted to be a good speaker of French.  That is the closest thing I can think of to  the concept of a gap year back then although there may have been people who did the same thing between high school and college.  I didn't know anyone (American) who could afford to do a traditional gab year. 

Now it's common for most students to study abroad at some point in their education, not always with the goal of learning to speak another language well.  My daughter was able to study in Ireland during her Junior Year and fell in love with the culture and everything else about that country.  She's a writer, and that magical place  was definitely the right place for her.    I think lots of American kids don't do a gap year or spend a summer working in Europe or anyplace else where a language other than English is spoken is because most don't develop the language aptitude to do so.  As a foreign language teacher sometimes I feel like my fellow Americans are even less interested in learning other languages than ever, and I've been teaching since the early 80's.

[SassyPants]

Graduated from HS in the mid 70s, and a gap year was only considered for those who worked FT, in order to finance their future studies. I went to University at 17 and was out by 21. Being a nursing student there was zero extra time to do anything else. There certainly was no studying abroad as that would not have dovetailed with my program. Both of my own kids studied in So Africa while in Uni.

[MamaJunebug]

6 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Actually since before the Civil War. I happened across this article from 2017 this week. It's about how slavery was an institution that really benefitted rich white people and not poorer whites. 

One of my newer heroes is Ulysses S. Grant. Hear me out; it's because he wrote very early on in the civil war that the poor white people of the south were almost as victimized* as the enslaved black people.  He wrote that it was a cryin' shame* that the white guys getting drafted into the confederate army couldn't see that their military efforts were solely to preserve the wealth and power of the rich folks.

* and * -- It's late, I've just eaten too much popcorn (but it's SO good) and I'm writing fast. I don't want to argue terms, and I'm pretty sure that Grant didn't use either "victimized" nor "cryin' shame" and that's why I did.  Spirit of the words rather than the letter of the quote.  If anybody's interested I'll do my best to find his quote, chapter & verse.  He saw clearly and he said it like it was. 

8 hours ago, Bastet said:

Grr!  Those rich students owe some of their wealth to decades of underpaying working class folk. The tragedy of those Trump voters is that they blamed the wrong people for their predicament. It surely wasn’t the fault of minorities or immigrants. 

It is very much to the advantage of the super wealthy to encourage low income white racism, and they have been doing it since the Civil War. 

Thank you so much.  And I need to mention that the "students" were my age or a little older.  You'd probably recognize their surname, that's how rich they were.  So effin' clueless.  

[usmcmom]

9 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

One of my newer heroes is Ulysses S. Grant. Hear me out; it's because he wrote very early on in the civil war that the poor white people of the south were almost as victimized* as the enslaved black people.  He wrote that it was a cryin' shame* that the white guys getting drafted into the confederate army couldn't see that their military efforts were solely to preserve the wealth and power of the rich folks.

 

I enjoyed visiting his home in my home state of Illinois. Galena is a wonderful historic town on its own. This puts it over the top, in my opinion. 
 

https://www.visitgalena.org/Venue/Ulysses-S-Grant-Home-State-Historic-Site