Maxwell 46: Relegating the Kids' Table to the Vestibule

[crawfishgirl]

I have two kids who are in high school.  Both of them have done plenty of dog walking for neighbors after school or while the owners are on vacation, but haven't held a true outside job.  It's not common in their circle of friends, and here is why:  my state has a top 6% / 10% (high school class ranking) rule for automatic admission to the flagship state universities, as long as the minimum qualifications are met.  If a high schooler isn't in the top 6 or 10%, it's very difficult to get accepted into those colleges, because most of the spots are already taken by those who are.  As a result, the competition for the high school class ranking is fierce.  It's important to take the honors / AP / dual credit classes, since they provide an extra quality point for the GPA.  These students have many hours of homework a day.  I've heard stories that at some of the high-end high schools, that the competition is so fierce that making one B can prevent a kid from reaching the required class ranking.  Extracurricular activities are stressed due to placement into the requested major (that part is not automatic), scholarships, etc.  There isn't much time for regular teenage jobs. 

Regarding why the class ranking rule exists, my understanding is that it helps to promote diversity, and to give the kids from poorer schools the same opportunity and access to the better state universities.  

[Alisamer]

3 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

Why on earth did I need that much time to put on makeup and do my hair and pick out an outfit? Ridiculous. 

I used to put on makeup and do my hair everyday too. Of course it was the late 80's and early 90's, so it took time for the curling iron to heat up and getting the perfect giant pouf in your bangs took some work. I also got up ridiculously early for school as a high-schooler, but only part of it was hair and makeup. I'd get to school early and go sit in my first classroom and do the majority of my homework there. I have no idea how I managed that because now I roll out of bed and toss on some clothes just barely in time to get out the door and get to work more-or-less on time.

I didn't work other than occasional babysitting during high school, either. I feel lucky - it wasn't until after I was in college that they seemed to start requiring more and more volunteer time and extracurriculars on your transcript. 

Still, I don't remember sitting around like a lump with nothing to do. There was homework, housework, Girl Scouts, other activities like an SAT class, all of Wednesday and Sunday evenings were church youth activities, and I read a lot. Maybe Teri might consider that being a lump because I would read and read and read, and not the Bible either? Starting sophomore year we visited a ton of colleges on weekends, and then later I remember spending tons of time on college applications and spent at least two weekends at colleges doing portfolio reviews to go with my applications. I went to church literally every Sunday, sang in the youth choir, played handbells, did other youth activities and group volunteering, and stuff like that. But since I didn't follow Steve's strictures I gues Teri would call me "Godless" and "hopeless". 

High schoolers are generally busy people, TBH. 

[Melissa1977]

15 minutes ago, crawfishgirl said:

Regarding why the class ranking rule exists, my understanding is that it helps to promote diversity, and to give the kids from poorer schools the same opportunity and access to the better state universities

How rankings can improve diversity? Upper or even middle class kids can hire tutors, can get help with difficulties (pay for logopedics, psycologists etc), have easier access to cultural events and activities and often have parents with degrees. They will always be better in rankings (broadly speaking) than children from poor school districts. Rankings will never promote equality. Scholarships tied to low income (not only for the best students but also for the normal ones) are needed. 

 

[Alisamer]

30 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

How rankings can improve diversity? Upper or even middle class kids can hire tutors, can get help with difficulties (pay for logopedics, psycologists etc), have easier access to cultural events and activities and often have parents with degrees. They will always be better in rankings (broadly speaking) than children from poor school districts. Rankings will never promote equality. Scholarships tied to low income (not only for the best students but also for the normal ones) are needed. 

 

I don't disagree, but if, say, the top 6% of students from EACH school gets automatic admission, that means the same percentage from the poorest school get in automatically as from the richest school. That could definitely help diversity, some.

Now sure, it's most likely that the top 6% of the poor school's students are also in the top % of income for the school, so within the school there's probably still disparity. But I could see how the ranking system could at least give students from poorer schools a fighting chance.

[allyisyourpally5]

It’s funny we talk about the Maxwell neighbours - I remember they used to hold a tea party type event for the neighbours (possibly only ladies). I remember it due to the discussions on here - I think on one of them for example they were very strict on food portions and there was one strawberry per guest, but the thing that stuck out was that they emphasised that Teri led the conversations - they didn’t actually allow guests to conserve without them, it had to be led by Teri. What a party. Off to search the blog now.

Thinking back to my previous post, I was definitely a busy teenager! School Monday - Friday, work Saturday (8-6) - church Sunday morning (as a teenager I wasn’t given an option. It wasn’t worth the battle). Sunday was often visiting family or having people over not always but probably twice a month. One evening I helped at a kids club, and one evening I volunteered for a support group at my school. I somehow juggled homework and friends amongst that. Plus my weekly hobby. There was pros and cons to this but I certainly appreciated when I could sleep in. 
University was freeing. THAT is when my lazy streak kicked in. Oh I worked hard for my course / but I learnt how much I love sleeping in till lunch, and how nice it was to have the weekends (I worked in the holidays). No obligations  was good!

 

[crawfishgirl]

22 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I don't disagree, but if, say, the top 6% of students from EACH school gets automatic admission, that means the same percentage from the poorest school get in automatically as from the richest school. That could definitely help diversity, some.

Now sure, it's most likely that the top 6% of the poor school's students are also in the top % of income for the school, so within the school there's probably still disparity. But I could see how the ranking system could at least give students from poorer schools a fighting chance.

Yes, it's 6 / 10% from each high school.  So if there is a high school that has a high level of poverty, it's top graduates have the same opportunity to get into the flagship universities as the top graduates from a wealthy school.

Note that there are many other universities in the state besides the flagship schools.  Many of the kids outside the top class rankings will go to a different university, then try to transfer to their first choice school as a sophomore or junior.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, allyisyourpally5 said:

It’s funny we talk about the Maxwell neighbours - I remember they used to hold a tea party type event for the neighbours (possibly only ladies). I remember it due to the discussions on here - I think on one of them for example they were very strict on food portions and there was one strawberry per guest, but the thing that stuck out was that they emphasised that Teri led the conversations - they didn’t actually allow guests to conserve without them, it had to be led by Teri. What a party. Off to search the blog now.

Thinking back to my previous post, I was definitely a busy teenager! School Monday - Friday, work Saturday (8-6) - church Sunday morning (as a teenager I wasn’t given an option. It wasn’t worth the battle). Sunday was often visiting family or having people over not always but probably twice a month. One evening I helped at a kids club, and one evening I volunteered for a support group at my school. I somehow juggled homework and friends amongst that. Plus my weekly hobby. There was pros and cons to this but I certainly appreciated when I could sleep in. 
University was freeing. THAT is when my lazy streak kicked in. Oh I worked hard for my course / but I learnt how much I love sleeping in till lunch, and how nice it was to have the weekends (I worked in the holidays). No obligations  was good!

 

Please find that post!  I have never heard of this before, I’d definitely have remembered one strawberry!  How do you police that?  Everyone gets one on a plate?  Or an announcement made?  Expect them to know this crazy rule no other humans have and hand slap when someone reaches for a second?

who wants to control conversation like that?!  When I have people over I’m always so relieved when they talk amongst themselves and it takes the pressure off me.

then again, I’m not a professional conversationalist like a Maxwell!

(although fwiw I’d rather be stuck talking to me at a party than any of them.  But then I like me so that’s not a universal thing!)

[JordynDarby5]

Schedules varied when I was in high school. There were some who had a very busy schedule, some in the middle and some who had none. I was more in the middle classes and had an after school job. My parents' had a rule that at sixteen you had to get a job. If not for that I wouldn't have. I enjoyed my non-school schedule of being lazy, watching TV, movies, reading and hanging out with friends too. Especially trying to keep up with soap operas at the time. But I did like the paychecks that fueled my book, movie and TV show buying. I always wondered how some had the time for school, homework, a sport and a job. But some did. Some of them even still had church. Where did they find the time? One of my friends did gymnastics but didn't have a job. Another friend didn't have a job and enjoyed being lazy. 

[church_of_dog]

 

20 minutes ago, allyisyourpally5 said:

Teri led the conversations - they didn’t actually allow guests to conserve without them, it had to be led by Teri.

 

15 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

who wants to control conversation like that?! 

Maybe Teri's secret identity is TWOP Howard?

[Melissa1977]

55 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I don't disagree, but if, say, the top 6% of students from EACH school gets automatic admission, that means the same percentage from the poorest school get in automatically as from the richest school. That could definitely help diversity, some.

Now sure, it's most likely that the top 6% of the poor school's students are also in the top % of income for the school, so within the school there's probably still disparity. But I could see how the ranking system could at least give students from poorer schools a fighting chance.

But do they get scholarships? I mean, if they come from poor background, how can they pay for college? Is it possible that 6% students from poor schools are admitted... but if they cannot pay, their empty chairs are occupied by the riches with worse marks? 

Not sure if it makes sense, I am not native and it is difficult for me to write about political issues in English. But I am very worried about the lack of opportunities for poor families and I constantly see how apparently right laws only make poor people poorer.

[JanasTattooParlor]

I had a very similar school schedule to the one listed on the last page. School was from 8:30-3:30, but I was up at 6 or earlier to catch the bus because I went to a magnet school and had to be driven to the bus stop that was about ten minutes from my house. I went to one of the top ten high schools in the country, and we were required to take a minimum of 4 AP classes and write an originally research thesis in order to graduate. I also ran varsity track and was required to get at least 30 hours of community service every school year so I would volunteer with my church during various camps throughout the school year and summer. We had significant amounts of homework and I never went to bed before midnight as a teen or even as a college student, though college was a million times easier than high school in terms of schedules. Despite all of that, I still socialized, hung out with friends, had time to read and relax, and do all of the millions of chores my very strict parents enforced on me. The only thing I didn’t do was work because my parents wanted me to focus on academics and sports. I honestly look back and have no idea how I did it all. I’m a teacher now and my students seem to have pretty much the same schedule I did except most of my students have a job or two in addition to everything else. 

[crawfishgirl]

1 hour ago, Melissa1977 said:

But do they get scholarships? I mean, if they come from poor background, how can they pay for college? Is it possible that 6% students from poor schools are admitted... but if they cannot pay, their empty chairs are occupied by the riches with worse marks? 

Not sure if it makes sense, I am not native and it is difficult for me to write about political issues in English. But I am very worried about the lack of opportunities for poor families and I constantly see how apparently right laws only make poor people poorer.

Regarding financial aid for tuition, I know that there are different programs for assistance, but I am not overly familiar with each one.  I am familiar with one program at one of the main universities that covers all tuition and fees for families making under $65,000.  https://news.utexas.edu/2019/07/09/regents-make-ut-austin-even-more-affordable-2/  It made state headlines when it was announced.  

BTW, my daughter was recently admitted to this school.  My oldest baby will be leaving for college in the fall.  I'm glad for her, but sad for me, because I will miss her!  Fortunately it's less than three hours away.

[freejugar]

I've only found these two:  https://blog.titus2.com/2011/11/06/ladies-neighborhood-brunch/ https://blog.titus2.com/2011/11/06/ladies-neighborhood-brunch/

They used to have so many comments

edit: I've found it https://blog.titus2.com/2012/11/10/the-brunch-report/

Quote

Mom was a wonderful hostess, and she came up with this years’ round-table discussion. She asked everyone to share a highlight of the past year, and if they wanted to, they could tell about their saddest time.

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by freejugar

[Caroline]

On 3/18/2021 at 4:35 PM, kmachete14 said:

Most teenagers these days have ZERO empty time. Their schedule is like: 

- Wake up at 5:45 to get ready for school & commute

- 7:30 school starts 

- 2:30-5:30 school sports/drama/music/clubs

- 5:30-6 eat dinner

- 6-8pm babysit/work part time/ volunteer 

- 8pm-12pm homework/studying

- 12pm/1pm sleep

And on the weekend they are helping/hanging out with family, hanging out with friends, part-time job, more school activities. 

Volunteering, being part of a team, and nurturing family/social relationships leave most teenagers feeling very fulfilled. Not to mention they are working towards their goals (college, career, sports, own business, etc) which is also very fulfilling. Even people who are planning on being stay at home moms (Ahem, Lori & Teri who love to think these girls are so oppressed) are doing these activities! 

This was very much my daughter's high school experience.  She could juggle AP/advanced classes, swim practice five days per week and meets on the weekends, piano and practice every week, a part time job as a life guard at the pool where she swam, time with family and friends, community service at a local nursing home, and time to draw, paint, and read.  It amazed me.  She is an even-tempered person and did it all with grace.  She attended a selective liberal arts college and was very well prepared for challenging college work.  While there she did similar things: crew team, part time lifeguarding, having fun with friends while getting excellent grades.  All that high school experience really helped and the fact that she's always been a naturally self-disciplined and organized person.  Her high school and college experiences were so different from mine - 40 years ago

 

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

This thread has made me think a lot about how much more competitive getting into university seems to get over time, even compared to my experience 15ish years ago. It also reminds me of a stat quoted by Elizabeth Warren that more Americans believe the moon landing was fake than believe you can be middle class without a college education.

Sometimes I wonder what kind of world I'm bringing this kid into, but I'm hoping we can avoid some teenage stress and anxiety with a simpler schedule.

Luckily, so far, getting into Canadian universities is not as fraught and expensive than American ones. I hope it stays that way. For example, unis typically don't take extracurriculars and volunteer work into account, unless the student is near the grade cut off. (As far as I know. I haven't applied to uni for a long time!)

[Queen Of Hearts]

7 hours ago, church_of_dog said:

 

 

Maybe Teri's secret identity is TWOP Howard?

The personality (or lack thereof) matches.

[MamaJunebug]

On 3/18/2021 at 12:15 PM, HeartsAFundie said:

And speaking of, "lil" for little goes up me like fingernails on a chalkboard.  

Oopsie.....

Ill try to remember not to use that here. 

[Giraffe]

On 3/18/2021 at 6:05 PM, Hane said:

Gee, Teri, some of the worst depression of my life was when I was a devout, churchgoing teenager. I was the kid who used to go to crack-of-dawn Mass at 7 AM on my own on Sundays so I could go home and spend the rest of the day studying. (I was an academic grind.) Spiritual life doesn’t cure depression. 

I have a base level of anxiety and am predisposed towards depression but both are so much better since walking away from religion. I wish “spiritual life doesn’t cure depression” would be screamed from every pulpit!

[Hane]

On 3/19/2021 at 4:18 AM, Melissa1977 said:

I suppose you are exaggerating. I find this schedule absolutely scaring. Teenagers need rest. Sleep less than 6 hours in a daily basis? Brain doesn't work fine in those conditions amd it leads to physical and mental issues. And, with the exception of professional sport players, I don't know any teenager that has 3 hours of extracurricular activities in a daily basis, neither teenagers than do extracurricular plus work/volunteer plus homework on the same day. 

In fact, the schedule is very Maxwellian. No free time. Day full of duties. No time to think, no time for being alone. For my teenager child, it would be a nightmare for sure.

In no way is @kmachete14 exaggerating. She’s mapped out a pretty typical high school day for ambitious American teenagers. 

Edited March 20, 2021 by Hane

[Caroline]

57 minutes ago, Hane said:

In no way is @kmachete14 exaggerating. She’s mapped out a pretty typical high school day for ambitious American teenagers. 

And it definitely depends on the kid.  Mine is academically driven all on her own.  She's serious and methodical, and she's just like her parents that way.   She enjoyed college for the intellectual challenge, and not all kids are looking solely for that.  I went to exactly one college party and hated that experience.  I still hate bars to this day.  Some kids need that kind of social interaction and some don't.  My husband is still the same mellow bookish guy he was forty years ago, and that's what I love about him.  It's no wonder we produced a clone of ourselves

I think the most important thing is to know your own kid and steer them in the right higher ed direction (and everyone needs something beyond high school these days).  If a kid is stressed by too full a schedule, cut back.  If a kid thrives with many things to do, let them.  As a veteran public school teacher I have known lots of parents who either don't know how to read their kids or don't have the time or energy. I get that, but we have to be paying even better attention to who are kids today because the world is so much more competitive and unforgiving than it was when I was in college about a million years ago.

I also know that a lot of these expectations of kids are cultural.  My European friends' kids weren't expected to have jobs, for example and were encouraged to travel instead.  We've talked about this, and kids in Europe seem to start traveling solo quite early compared to American kids.  Maybe it's because many live in cities and are used to public transport, maybe it's because American cities can be more dangerous places (guns, etc.).  Maybe it's because European countries are closer together and the train system is excellent.  Not to mention that Americans are traditionally all about working too much (IMO) and need to be busy all the time.  I know I mentioned Stanley Tucci's series about Italy (highly recommend).  One thing that comes across so clearly is the slow and relaxing pace of life he encounters wherever he goes in Italy.  I've lived in France and Spain where things can be similar, but I've never managed to replicate that in my American life sadly.

[fundiefan]

16 hours ago, freejugar said:

I've only found these two:  https://blog.titus2.com/2011/11/06/ladies-neighborhood-brunch/ https://blog.titus2.com/2011/11/06/ladies-neighborhood-brunch/

They used to have so many comments

edit: I've found it https://blog.titus2.com/2012/11/10/the-brunch-report/

 

Did we ever get the ham & potato casserole recipe or is it in the same box as how to use a pizza cutter to cut lettuce?

Edited March 20, 2021 by fundiefan

[Bluebirdbluebell]

3 hours ago, Caroline said:

And it definitely depends on the kid.  Mine is academically driven all on her own.  She's serious and methodical, and she's just like her parents that way.   She enjoyed college for the intellectual challenge, and not all kids are looking solely for that.  I went to exactly one college party and hated that experience.  I still hate bars to this day.  Some kids need that kind of social interaction and some don't.  My husband is still the same mellow bookish guy he was forty years ago, and that's what I love about him.  It's no wonder we produced a clone of ourselves

I think the most important thing is to know your own kid and steer them in the right higher ed direction (and everyone needs something beyond high school these days).  If a kid is stressed by too full a schedule, cut back.  If a kid thrives with many things to do, let them.  As a veteran public school teacher I have known lots of parents who either don't know how to read their kids or don't have the time or energy. I get that, but we have to be paying even better attention to who are kids today because the world is so much more competitive and unforgiving than it was when I was in college about a million years ago.

I also know that a lot of these expectations of kids are cultural.  My European friends' kids weren't expected to have jobs, for example and were encouraged to travel instead.  We've talked about this, and kids in Europe seem to start traveling solo quite early compared to American kids.  Maybe it's because many live in cities and are used to public transport, maybe it's because American cities can be more dangerous places (guns, etc.).  Maybe it's because European countries are closer together and the train system is excellent.  Not to mention that Americans are traditionally all about working too much (IMO) and need to be busy all the time.  I know I mentioned Stanley Tucci's series about Italy (highly recommend).  One thing that comes across so clearly is the slow and relaxing pace of life he encounters wherever he goes in Italy.  I've lived in France and Spain where things can be similar, but I've never managed to replicate that in my American life sadly.

There are guns everywhere.  For example a friend of mine goes to a very liberal church. Her son went to play with another kid from the church, and the kid showed him the gun in the house. Thankfully everyone was okay and the kids didn't play with the gun. Gun violence is a problem everywhere in this country.

Lack of mass transit and urbanphobia are more of a problem. 

[PennySycamore]

A friend of mine who started the local chapter of Moms Demand Action was a military wife whose husband had been stationed overseas in Germany for a number of years.  Her kids were scared shitless by the prevalence of guns in the US.  That was not the case in Germany.  Another friend lived in a neighborhood near a fundie church, but they were Catholic.  The neighbor kids were, for the most part, forbidden to visit Michelle's family because they had wine and other spirits in the house while Michelle and her husband were uneasy about their girls going to their neighbors' homes because they pretty much all had guns.  

Speaking personally, it would be more than fine with me if handguns were banned in the US and I've felt that way since 1968.

[allyisyourpally5]

Are Gap Years common for American kids after finishing High School or post college?

In the U.K. it is very common to spend some time travelling (say a few months to a year, earning money as you go, for example fruit picking in Australia) and mainland Europe too. I agree, having friends in the US, Europeans tend to start travelling alone sooner. But it’s also still more likely that they will have a passport and travel internationally. I know this is on the rise in the US. 
My example Is travelling over to the US at 19 alone to work a summer at Camp, and then went back the following two years which landed me an opportunity to work in America for a couple of years. I never saw this in reverse (ie Americans my age spending the summer working in Europe). 
 

Of course the flip side is America is huge! England is tiny - My friend and I drove up to Aberdeen (which is right at the top of Scotland) from the south coast of England where we live to collect our friend from university. Yes we obviously stopped for breaks a few times so that counts for time but it took us a day. We left at 7am and arrived by 9pm (it’s about 600 miles) - a long time in theory but you can’t get from one end of America to the next in a day! 
 

Im having a dig for those Brunch posts. I found this snippet to add to the one above:

“Instead of just breaking up into individual conversations, Mom asked if each lady could share how they came to the neighborhood. It was very interesting to hear the background behind the families being here, and we really enjoyed hearing their stories.“

Most of the posts I found have an indicator along the lines of controlling the conversation. We all Know the Maxwells are the only good conversationalists after all.

 

[fundiefan]

Susanna's annual post today. No snark there. Except, at the end, Sarah says "we’ll see you again. One day. Maybe soon."

Apparently, the Maxwell's are not just waiting around to die, they're anticipating/hoping for it. 

What a miserable way to waste the life your god supposedly gave you,