Safe At Home 6: PIGS ARE FLYING! Luke is Engaged!

[anjulibai]

Thanks, @Anne Of Gray Gables! I'm curious, did they say whether they had been in any significant relationships? 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

11 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

Thanks, @Anne Of Gray Gables! I'm curious, did they say whether they had been in any significant relationships? 

 No. They only referenced acquaintances. Presumably rejected acquaintances. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

The pieces of your heart analogy never made much sense because these people are quiverful. If you give pieces of your heart to people you date, wouldn’t you also give pieces of your heart to each of your children. I mean I know that the type of love is different. But to say you can only give your whole heart to one person means you should only have one child. Because you can only give your whole heart to that one kid. Otherwise you will have to divide it amongst 14 kids. The more kids you have, the smaller the slice of cake they get. 

[AmazonGrace]

Dear Arndt brothers, let Chet have some cake. Cake is meant to be shared. If you always eat the entire cake yourself you are likely to be an overweight selfish weirdo who has no friends.  If you have so many friends that you're in danger of running out of cake, you can get a bigger cake. 

[ignorantobserver]

I found the first half of the video to be the most interesting (the cake-talk is just standard purity-stuff). They seem to have several layers of defense against falling in love:

-          They say verbatim that, in a large family, « you are being watched » - everyone else in their family will see and judge if they ever date a girl “for superficial reasons”. Having a sister adds an additional layer of social pressure because they want to treat other girls like they want their sister to be treated.

-          Hiding behind a “courting”-system instead of being “honest” is dishonourable, just like evading taxes or finding loopholes in the law (are they criticising other fundies for their dating practices ?). How to be “honest/honourable” :   

o   “Don’t act interested if you are not interested.”

o   “Just be honest with yourself.”

o   “Long term over short term.”

-          “Long term thinking”, they theorize, means never compromising when looking for a partner. “If you are looking for five essential qualities and a girl only has two, you might be tempted to date her.” Don’t do that, it’s insulting and dishonourable. Failed relationships and breakups happen when people compromise because they “just want to have a girlfriend” or date for “superficial reasons”.

-          They mention several times their fear of breakups. If there is a breakup, they theorize, the mistake was to get in the relationship in the first place : people in a bad relationship were “fooling themselves” and interested in the girl for “superficial reasons”. They use very strong words when talking about breakups: “suffering”, “hating yourself”. A lot of mentions of suffering.

-          Appreciate modest girls. Don’t insult modest girls by being interested in “showy” girls. You don’t want to punish girls for being modest. Don’t give your attention to immodest girls.

-          If you find a girl attractive, you should immediately ask yourself if you aren’t being attracted to her for “superficial” reasons. If so, that’s insulting, dishonourable and shameful. Just think of your baby sister !

-         "Marrying the wrong girl is not an accomplishment." People shouldn't congratulate others on getting engaged. Instead, they should be doing "quality control". They recently met a young women who was "holding out for the right guy" for years and thought about congratulating her on still being single. Being single is a moral accomplishment !

My personal impression : these guys are attractive and reasonably intelligent ; they act and talk in a normal, pleasant way. They desperately want to have a relationship and get married. They are still young enough to do so (a small age difference is not a big deal for many women in their thirties). Finding a match should be exceedingly easy for them. There is nothing obviously wrong with them that justifies them still being single.

Based on things they repeat a lot, here is my speculative take on what went wrong :

1.) All of their attempts at a relationship get shot down by other family members on account of “being superficial”.

2.) They have trained themselves to second-guess and distrust every kind of attraction they might feel. Thinking that a girl is pretty punishes the “modest” girls that they don’t notice. Noticing a girl thus becomes intrinsically immoral (and also probably means that the girl is immoral and not marriage material).

3.) They have no way of navigating the phase where you meet someone and fall in love. For them, if you show any interest at all without being willing (yet) to marry the other person, you are not acting in good faith. They even seem to think badly of other fundies for dating with a purpose/courting.

4.) They live with an extreme fear of having a failed relationship and getting hurt. Breaking up with a girlfriend and “suffering” is something they are almost obsessively anxious about. They are aware that other people have breakups (so it’s no some unknown catastrophe), but they seem to be absolutely terrified of suffering the same fate. They literally talk about "hating yourself" for a failed relationship.

5.) They are desperate for a relationship and think obsessively about their future wives. They also have ridiculous expectations concerning marriage and are being encouraged to settle for nothing less. Of course, settling for nothing less than the teenage fantasy of a perfect relationship means you never get married.

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by ignorantobserver
Edited the list because counting to five is hard.

[Audrey2]

2 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

Dear Arndt brothers, let Chet have some cake. Cake is meant to be shared. If you always eat the entire cake yourself you are likely to be an overweight selfish weirdo who has no friends.  If you have so many friends that you're in danger of running out of cake, you can get a bigger cake. 

I hear you using your cake analogy and all I can think of is the song Magic Penny that I learned many years ago at camp. We only sang the first verse in the chorus but after looking up the whole song I think it works.

Love is something if you give it away,
Give it away, give it away.
Love is something if you give it away,
You end up having more.

It's just like a magic penny,
Hold it tight and you won't have any.
Lend it, spend it, and you'll have so many
They'll roll all over the floor.

For love is something if you give it away,
Give it away, give it away.
Love is something if you give it away,
You end up having more.

Money's dandy and we like to use it, 1
But love is better if you don't refuse it.
It's a treasure and you'll never lose it
Unless you lock up your door.

For love is something if you give it away,
Give it away, give it away.
Love is something if you give it away,
You end up having more.

So let's go dancing till the break of day,
And if there's a piper, we can pay.
For love is something if you give it away,
You end up having more.

For love is something if you give it away,
Give it away, give it away.
Love is something if you give it away,
You end up having more.

I looked it up and the song is by Malvina Reynolds.

 

[CTRLZero]

39 minutes ago, ignorantobserver said:

They are desperate for a relationship and think obsessively about their future wives

I’m trying to look at this from a future wife’s perspective.  Imagine making it past all the initial obstacles and actually marrying into this angst-ridden family whose members will be watching and assessing your every move.  *shudder*  

[JermajestyDuggar]

7 minutes ago, CTRLZero said:

I’m trying to look at this from a future wife’s perspective.  Imagine making it past all the initial obstacles and actually marrying into this angst-ridden family whose members will be watching and assessing your every move.  *shudder*  

I honestly think that Rick might have to pass away for one of these guys to break free. And once one does, more will follow. 

[AmazonGrace]

54 minutes ago, ignorantobserver said:

1.) All of their attempts at a relationship get shot down by other family members on account of “being superficial”.

2.) They have trained themselves to second-guess and distrust every kind of attraction they might feel. Thinking that a girl is pretty punishes the “modest” girls that they don’t notice. Noticing a girl thus becomes intrinsically immoral (and also probably means that the girl is immoral and not marriage material).

3.) They have no way of navigating the phase where you meet someone and fall in love. For them, if you show any interest at all without being willing (yet) to marry the other person, you are not acting in good faith. They even seem to think badly of other fundies for dating with a purpose/courting.

4.) They live with an extreme fear of having a failed relationship and getting hurt. Breaking up with a girlfriend and “suffering” is something they are almost obsessively anxious about. They are aware that other people have breakups (so it’s no some unknown catastrophe), but they seem to be absolutely terrified of suffering the same fate. They literally talk about "hating yourself" for a failed relationship.

5.) They are desperate for a relationship and think obsessively about their future wives. They also have ridiculous expectations concerning marriage and are being encouraged to settle for nothing less. Of course, settling for nothing less than the teenage fantasy of a perfect relationship means you never get married.

 

 

So basically they're stuck in a self defeating circle.

Rule One:  It's a sin to be sexually attracted to someone you are not married to.

Rule Two: If you dated someone you didn't end up marrying you gave pieces of your heart away and that's basically adultery.

 In order to get married, you probably have to get to know someone a bit better while not married. So you date them for a while and you have two options:

Either you fancy them or not.

If you fancy them, see Rule One, They're a Jezebel and an immodest bitch that leads your pure heart to sin. Dump them. You don't want to marry that sort of girl.

If you fancy them not, you probably won't want to marry them either. See Rule Two. They're a distraction that leads your pure heart to sin. Dump them.

There's no way to win.

 

Better just not to try.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

48 minutes ago, ignorantobserver said:

My personal impression : these guys are attractive and reasonably intelligent ; they act and talk in a normal, pleasant way. They desperately want to have a relationship and get married. They are still young enough to do so (a small age difference is not a big deal for many women in their thirties). Finding a match should be exceedingly easy for them. There is nothing obviously wrong with them that justifies them still being single.

I agree they attractive and not terribly old right now, but they are very weird. The oldest are in their 40s already and time is ticking away. They are also intensely judgy biatchs when it comes to women.  

I think even more than getting married, they desperately want to have sex but the cult doesn't allow this outside of the commitment of marriage. And Rick has set up a system in which each individual has 13 accountability partners. Which is likely why they spent so much time talking about being "watched". It's downright creepy.

It's extraordinary how effective the Arndts' brainwashing has been. Half of me feels sorry for them and the other half is like "Dudes, you are all grown up plus two more decades. Get out and away from all those prying eyes!"

 

[justmy2cents]

Maybe they should look into arranged marriage or have the brothers find wives for each other. This way they don’t engage their hearts until the wedding. This is crazy of course, but what are their options? So incredibly unhealthy.  Not everyone needs to be married but not one out of 13?  Shame on the parents for setting up their sons to fail. 
 

On the other hand, maybe it’s best if they keep the crazy to themselves and stayed single.

Edited August 17, 2022 by justmy2cents

[JermajestyDuggar]

I looked at Luke’s rumored gf’s fb page and I don’t see any of the posts mentioning him. I wonder if those two broke up and that is a lesson to all the other brothers. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[justmy2cents]

19 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I looked at Luke’s rumored gf’s fb page and I don’t see any of the posts mentioning him. I wonder if those two broke up and that is a lesson to all the other brothers. 

@wolfi_fox told us back in March that Rick broke them up. We didn’t trust this poster but it looks like they did have insider info.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

16 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I looked at Luke’s rumored gf’s fb page and I don’t see any of the posts mentioning him. I wonder if those two broke up and that is a lesson to all the other brothers. 

Speculation only, but I think there is a good chance that a possible Luke break-up is why they made this strange video in the first place. I'm sure people who know them know more details about the relationship, and this may be a way of trying to make Luke appear honorable while implying the young lady was not what she first appeared to be. 

[Howl]

@AmazonGrace's post got me thinking. I'm putting my previously unused Psychology degree to use! 

It's fascinating in a grotesque kind of way.   It's a major case study for  extremely unhealthy emotional enmeshment of a magnitude I can't even imagine.  13 enmeshed male siblings + a sister.  

And how do we know they are enmeshed?  They cannot contemplate or entertain the possibility of making an independent decision to live separate lives, in their own apartment, with their own spouse, their own family. 

All this crazy about the possibility of a failed relationship, not giving your heart away, where, as @AmazonGrace noted, 

1 hour ago, AmazonGrace said:

So basically they're stuck in a self defeating circle.

 It's just a bullshit excuse to not leave the bond of enmeshed siblings.  Because their frame of reference has always been enmeshed male siblings, they have never had a healthy relationship with a woman and have zero idea what that's about. Zero. And homeschooling means they've never had relationships with non siblings - no best friends, no buddies, no independent social life, no true adventures separate from family, no emotional growth based on life experiences - no nothing. All this, of course, is by Rick's design.  The frame of reference is Rick and "Safe at Home." 

To have a life partner (wife) would mean making an independent decision to bond with the partner, leaving the siblings and the sibling hive mind behind.  Unthinkable.  Literally unthinkable. Rick seems to have the final say in everything and has ultimate control of the hive mind. 

I feel like I'm pulling on a thread that is unravelling the mystery of the Arndt sweater for me.   The remaining mystery is how, exactly, did Rick and Cathy instill an emotionally crippling fear of leaving home? The "Safe at Home" mantra is the major clue, but we'll never know the details. 

When you have 40+ year old men spouting this nonsense, none of these kidults have the awareness or insight to understand their situation. 

Rather than risking an Arndt life of self hate and brutal condemnation from all your brothers because of even the possibility of a failed relationship, better "Safe at Home." 

And the perpetually unfinished Vine Valley?  Just another way to keep the boys at home. 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Howl

[AmazonGrace]

Likely it works both ways.  You sabotage your own relationships because you're afraid to leave... but it probably would feel threatening, almost like a betrayal,  if one brother was looking like leaving the nest,  so the others would sabotage you too. Maybe not as a conscious decision but, you know, "brother, we love you but are you sure you're doing this for the right reasons? Look, she¨s a nice girl but I was praying about you two and God gave me this Bible passage... "

Quote

"What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

I went to the random bible verse generator and that was the second hit so it's probably not hard at all to find verses that will sow some doubt.

Quote

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

A fair bet would be to go read some Proverbs because the virtuous wife is on such a high pedestal that there's no mortal who can live up to that.

[Howl]

5 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

Look, she¨s a nice girl but I was praying about you two and God gave me this Bible passage... "

Ah, yes, the old unassailable "God gave me this message in response to prayer..."  

I have a sense that the oldest boys will become enforcers when Rick crosses the Vine Valley bridge...and nothing will change.  They'll just continue as a house full of eccentric aging bachelors. I just can't imagine how these guys suppress their inherent sexuality.

I recall the short video where several of the brothers have been away and have returned with a stuffed penguin, which they are delivering via drone to other assembled family members on the back deck of the house. It's a short distance, but there is a LOT of advice and anxiety about the whole process and shouted cautions that the drone CANNOT damage the house. 

It left an impression on me that independent decisions are not a thing in the Arndt hive. 

 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

13 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

A fair bet would be to go read some Proverbs because the virtuous wife is on such a high pedestal that there's no mortal who can live up to that.

Cathy Arndt can! That woman absolutely fascinates me. I think Rick is clearly running the show, but she's what the boys are looking for in a wife. And there can only be one of them on this planet. 

[yeahthatsme74]

I simply cannot imagine being as emotionally stunted and crippled as the Arndt manboys are. I'm just a few years older than the oldest and have so much major life experience behind me. They sound like 16 year olds trying to give relationship advice. Even if any of them do meet a nice woman, is she really going to be interested in pursuing marriage with a 40 year old who thinks and acts like a teenager (and is just plain weird)? I think they'll all just live happily ever after safe at home. 

[AmazonGrace]

It's like multiple safety nets.

The first one is their lifestyle. Where are they going to meet eligible women if they hang out with their brothers all the time?

If, however, there is a hole in that safety net and Bashful happens to meet a woman, there's another safety net below: Is the woman's religion compatible with the Arndt theology? If not, it won't fly, and the ball stops in the second safety net.

If, however, there is a hole in the second safety net and the woman is the right sort of Wackhead Christian, there is another safety net:

Is the lady naive enough not to see the warning signs?

If there is a hole in that safety net too and the woman is willing, we have the safety net of prayer. Is Bashful going to convince himself that it's God's plan for him to marry this woman?

If there is a hole in that safety net and Bashful is all systems go, we have multiple safety nets of Rick and Cathy, and his brothers Dopey and Grumpy and Sleepy and all the other emotional dwarves. Are all of them going to be unable to guilt him out of it?

All those safety nets have to fail at the same time in order for Bashful to get hitched.

[ignorantobserver]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

 It's just a bullshit excuse to not leave the bond of enmeshed siblings. 

Of course it is. But it's a very unusual excuse, that's why it's so fascinating. Usually, guys in that situation just use "My mother needs me", "I work too much" or "Girls don't want nice guys" and then try to avoid thinking about it and focus on other things. A 41-year-old could have already found something else to do with his life. Yet he doesn't : he continues to obsess about his future marriage.

These guys have built an extensively analysed values system around the contradiction of "wanting to get married, being officially supposed to get married, yet never getting married". They have an entire theology of marriage and why marriage and children are essential to their religious practice. They think about it, discuss it, pray about it, all the time. "Being supposed to get married but not doing it and finding reasons not to" is a crucial part of their ministry and identities.

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by ignorantobserver

[AmazonGrace]

It's an entire tribe of i

23 minutes ago, ignorantobserver said:

 "Being supposed to get married but not doing it and finding reasons not to" is a crucial part of their ministry and identities.

 

It's an entire tribe of  Christian incels. We are horny, we are single, whose fault is it?

How handy that  it's always the woman who is at fault.

The more worldly incels blame them for not putting out enough but not being virginal and modest enough works to the same end.

[ignorantobserver]

36 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

It's an entire tribe of  Christian incels. We are horny, we are single, whose fault is it?

A few years ago, I fell down the rabbit hole of Incel-culture and I must say that the Arndts don't appear to be the typical case. The impression I got from Incel folks was that they lack social skills, generally can't connect with other people, but fail to understand that a marriage is a fundamentally social task. They fantasize about "outsourcing" their emotional work and expect a beautiful girlfriend to provide for all their social and emotional needs. This expectation is coupled with a general inability to communicate with other people, social and professional failure, often coupled with internet addiction.

The Arndts don't quite seem to fit that profile, that's why they are suprising - they are, at least superficially, "well rounded", have jobs, have normal conversations with other people (family members, but still), a reasonable level of empathy and emotional competence, no obvious issues with alcohol or gaming addictions.

Judging by this video, I wasn't under the impression that they are bitter, angry or unable to relate to women (at least not more than what's normal in standard purity culture circles). They might be, of course, but if they are they hide it well enough to at least fool me (granted, my intuition is terrible). Unlike normal incels, they should occasionally get "initial offers". They just choose not to act on them.

I stand by my conclusion that the issue is enmeshment, not (unusually high levels of) misogyny.

Edited August 17, 2022 by ignorantobserver

[nokidsmom]

2 hours ago, Howl said:

It's fascinating in a grotesque kind of way.   It's a major case study for  extremely unhealthy emotional enmeshment of a magnitude I can't even imagine.  13 enmeshed male siblings + a sister.  

Honestly this extreme level of enmeshment makes my own FOO looks "normal"  in comparison.   And there were definite similarities, one being that my parents managed to instill irrational levels of fear in both my sisters who were as adults.  Never understood why as I was the one who did the "unthinkable" in leaving home, parental guilt trips did not work, I survived everyone being mad, nor was I disowned or anything.   But this is beyond anything I have ever seen or heard.   

These guys, in spite of wanting a relationship  have worked out all kinds of ways / excuses / obstacles around getting exactly that.   And it's ALL of them doing this self-sabotaging, one would think one or two might stop and realize what they are doing.   Or one or two would get so tired of living "safe at home" they would just say "forget this, I am out of here".   And if Luke's relationship really was shot down by Rick, (and I can say from personal experience there's nothing that pissed me off more than my parents' attempted interference) so if that didn't wake him up the insane levels of parental control over his life, nothing will.

I suspect that just like the Maxwell daughters had suitors interested in them only to get shot down by Daddy, the Arndt manboys have had their share of interested ladies but Rick / family weirdness / penguins / wackadoodle Christianity makes it impossible for them to get anywhere.  

 

[AmazonGrace]

15 minutes ago, ignorantobserver said:

A few years ago, I fell down the rabbit hole of Incel-culture and I must say that the Arndts don't appear to be the typical case. The impression I got from Incel folks was that they lack social skills, generally can't connect with other people, but fail to understand that a marriage is a fundamentally social task. They fantasize about "outsourcing" their emotional work and expect a beautiful girlfriend to provide for all their social and emotional needs. This expectation is coupled with a general inability to communicate with other people, social and professional failure, often coupled with internet addiction.

The Arndts don't quite seem to fit that profile, that's why they are suprising - they are, at least superficially, "well rounded", have jobs, have normal conversations with other people (family members, but still), a reasonable level of empathy and emotional competence, no obvious issues with alcohol or gaming addictions.

Judging by this video, I wasn't under the impression that they are bitter, angry or unable to relate to women (at least not more than what's normal in standard purity culture circles). They might be, of course, but if they are they hide it well enough to at least fool me (granted, my intuition is terrible). Unlike normal incels, they should occasionally get "initial offers". They just choose not to act on them.

I stand by my conclusion that the issue is enmeshment, not (unusually high levels of) misogyny.

Yeah of course enmeshment is a huge issue with the Arndts, I didn't mean to argue against that in the least, or mean  the incel comparison to be taken quite as literally as that. Obviously there are many differences.  But anything to do with purity culture has a ton of misogyny as a default feature but perhaps you're right and it's not highly unusual but sadly too common.

The main similarity I see is that  both the internet addicted incels and the manboys are unwilling or unable to consider their eternal bachelorhood might be due to any failing in their own behavior. What the women would want or need and whether you can give them that is not a relevant consideration.   Do I have the emotional maturity to be a good lover, husband, father and provider? doesn't enter into it. Does God think I am  good enough for her?  Well of course I am!  It's the women who are not godly enough, modest enough, virtuous enough to be a God chosen Arndt wife.

Quote

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh

The second chapter of the Bible is basically an argument against the Safe At Home enmeshment ideal.