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mango_fandango

I have a Facebook account but rarely use it (I mostly use the messenger app). I don’t have any other social media. Most of the people I went to school/university with haven’t started having kids yet, although given that we’re in our mid-20s I bet it’ll start within the next five years. I know of one girl I went to primary school with who is married and has two kids, but she doesn’t post a lot. 
 

@feministxtian you sound a far better mother than many of the fundies on here! 

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Also: "cool is not the same as good."

"Get a vasectomy Shaun"?

I'm going to rename "misformama" to "misinformationmama".

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anachronistic

@FilleMondaine I’m so sorry if I came across as competitive or comparative in any way. I really didn’t mean to, I was just trying to point out that Braggie thinks she’s so unique and on all the latest trends when in fact said things have been around for awhile and aren’t that big of a deal at all. I totally agree with your kid philosophy. I actually think Braggie needs a sign for her house that reads ‘Pick YOUR kid up when he cries’, emphasis on ‘your’ because Simon and Ezra never agreed to be parents. 

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FiveAcres
8 minutes ago, anachronistic said:

@FilleMondaine I’m so sorry if I came across as competitive or comparative in any way. I really didn’t mean to, I was just trying to point out that Braggie thinks she’s so unique and on all the latest trends when in fact said things have been around for awhile and aren’t that big of a deal at all. I totally agree with your kid philosophy. I actually think Braggie needs a sign for her house that reads ‘Pick YOUR kid up when he cries’, emphasis on ‘your’ because Simon and Ezra never agreed to be parents. 

As you say, the thing is that being so unique and so on trend are actually mutually exclusive concepts. 

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FilleMondaine
41 minutes ago, anachronistic said:

@FilleMondaine I’m so sorry if I came across as competitive or comparative in any way. I really didn’t mean to, I was just trying to point out that Braggie thinks she’s so unique and on all the latest trends when in fact said things have been around for awhile and aren’t that big of a deal at all. I totally agree with your kid philosophy. I actually think Braggie needs a sign for her house that reads ‘Pick YOUR kid up when he cries’, emphasis on ‘your’ because Simon and Ezra never agreed to be parents. 

Hahahaha! you are right, Simon and Ezra did not agree to be parents. At least not full-time parents.

And no apologies needed, @anachronistic! Message boards are difficult places to ascertain intention. For the record, in retrospect, my friendly "hey hey" (as in "hey hey, I brought drinks!") sounded more like I wanted to fight. So I am sorry, too.  Honestly, I always like your posts, and so I'm generally always ready to read the best intentions in your writing.

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Peaches-n-Beans

I'm probably going to be a single parent, I say this because I don't really have any interest in seeking out a partner but I do want a baby after my dog dies (I don't trust my dog around children so I won't have a baby before her death). But I don't think I can breastfeed. I'm autistic and I don't know that my sensory issues will allow for breastfeeding or make it easy and I believe it would be best for my baby to have a mom who's happy and comfortable. So bottle feeding it is, and boy do I wish Braggie would go for that. Not bottle feeding but looking at whats best for her child. But here we are.

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FilleMondaine
40 minutes ago, Peaches-n-Beans said:

I'm probably going to be a single parent, I say this because I don't really have any interest in seeking out a partner but I do want a baby after my dog dies (I don't trust my dog around children so I won't have a baby before her death). But I don't think I can breastfeed. I'm autistic and I don't know that my sensory issues will allow for breastfeeding or make it easy and I believe it would be best for my baby to have a mom who's happy and comfortable. So bottle feeding it is, and boy do I wish Braggie would go for that. Not bottle feeding but looking at whats best for her child. But here we are.

Formula was an enormous leap for women's empowerment (or "women's lib" as it was called), because women were no longer trapped at home and had so many more choices. In a vacuum, it can be argued that "breast is best". But no one lives in a vacuum! I agree 100% that a happy and comfortable mom has healthier babies.

And since we've already established that intent and tone is hard to discern on message boards, please read EMPOWERMENT! When you do have a tiny Squishy Beans, I hope that you talk with a lactation consultant, even if Squishy Beans is adopted. They can help identify tongue ties, allergies, formula and bottle selection, bottle positioning, and even what to say when--not if, unfortunately--you get judged. If you do want to give breastmilk for a short time--say just the colostrum, or just for the first six weeks--lactation consultant can help you find the least-torturous way for you to do it (from the breast, pump into a bottle, flange-size, expressing into a shot glass, etc). There are some attachment brain mechanisms that happen during breastfeeding, but lactation consultant can also help you achieve in different ways than breastfeeding.

Just writing that paragraph, full of feeding solutions, made me angry at Braggie. There are so many right ways to feed the babies! Yet she always chooses the worst way. Every time.

*Sorry to always show up on baby-feeding comments. Having been unable to give breastmilk the "Traditional" way and suffering judgment, I sort of am on a one-woman quest to defeat breastfeeding absolutists and the shit they make. @Peaches-n-Beans, I know that your future baby is going to be so lucky to have you as a mum. 

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Blessings of the Corn

God, I REALLY hate that filter she uses. It's so ugly! It's unflattering. Somehow it makes babies look less cute????

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feministxtian

I still don't get the baby feeding wars. My "baby" is 30, I'm a multiple time over grandma and between them, there's been breast, bottle, late weaning, early weaning, food allergies, goofy babies. Some wouldn't give up the bottle until they were close to 3, some were done at 1, some hated sippy cups, some didn't. Some loved the pacifier, some didn't. Some potty trained themselves at 2, some were still shitting their pants at 4. I just want to say to all of this IT DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER!!!! Feed your kid however is best, and yes, easiest for you and your kid. If keeping a bottle until they're 3 makes 'em happy, fine. Just give 'em water at bedtime. If they want to suck their thumb instead of a pacifier, have at it. 

At the end of the day a happy, healthy kid AND mommy is the goal. Ok, maybe I'm not a good example of that because I'm batshit crazy. They all grow up, and usually turn into relatively decent adults. By the time they're 30, you'd never know how they were fed as infants. The best rule of thumb I've ever heard was "keep one end full and the other one dry, don't mix 'em up". I mean, for an overarching philosophy of baby feeding, I think that's the best, clearest advice anyone can get. 

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SuperNova

Theo turned 6. According to Abbie he's "really old" now. She has three in diapers so I can see why she thinks that. She gives a list of attributes that, to be fair, is more personalized than most fundie kids get.

Shiloh is not included in the picture.

Spoiler

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FilleMondaine
1 hour ago, feministxtian said:

I still don't get the baby feeding wars.

I know that I've popped up a lot to support women's decisions, and because I wished I had known the breadth of feeding options. Today, though, I realised that I was deeply hurt by the judgment on feeding (any way you feed is going to get you trouble with the feeding wars...it's terrible), and then I think I vicariously got hurt all over again watching my clients be judged.

Being a mother shouldn't mean being a martyr. And if you get off being a martyr, then get help, cough cough, Abbie.

I love reading about your feeding stories! It's so much fun to read about all the different ways to be healthy parents and healthy kids. :)

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feministxtian
1 minute ago, FilleMondaine said:

I love reading about your feeding stories! It's so much fun to read about all the different ways to be healthy parents and healthy kids.

My brats and grandbrats have all had their own little quirks. Somehow grandma's personality gets genetically transmitted. 

I personally have lousy eating habits so it's no wonder the kids/grands have odd eating habits too. We have one that is struggling a bit with weight, but we're hoping that activity will take care of it. The kid in question is NOT spoken to regarding eating, weight, etc. We also have the total opposite where kiddo is skinny as can be and eats enough to feed a couple of football players. That kiddo is also not spoken to regarding the lack of weight. Its not that the adults don't care, it's just we know that making the kid in question feel bad is not going to help the issue. There are better ways to handle it...with one, encouraging outside activity, sports, stuff like that is better than food shaming. The other one, encouraging the appetite and providing higher calorie food choices is better than calling the kid "beanpole". We're trying to raise confident kids...the older grands are decidedly confident in their own skins, so we're keeping on with the younger grands. The 8 year old grands, neither one is conceited, they're convinced they're all that. Itty Bitty is already hard headed as hell, has her own little preferences for food and is now at the stage where she prefers to feed herself than have someone feed her (almost 6 months old). 

Kids are individuals and what worked with one is not necessarily going to work with the next one. For example, when my oldest turned about 2, she essentially quit eating. I mean, she didn't eat enough to keep a fly alive! So, when the next one was born, I was under the (erroneous) assumption that he would be the same. Well, he's 33...I'm still waiting for him to stop eating. #3 had a tough time with food allergies resulting in skin and GI disturbances...he's outgrown most of them now at 30, and knows what he shouldn't eat. Doesn't mean he doesn't eat it, he just accepts the consequences. One of the 8 year olds has some food allergies too...but he seems to be outgrowing it. 

None of them are picky. My brats grew up with the "take it or leave it" philosophy of "fine dining". I'm not a short order cook and would seriously attempt to fix food everyone would eat. HOWEVER, if one child or the other suddenly decided they didn't like or want what I was shoveling out, they were invited to go hungry. That didn't happen much at all. They knew that mom is "she who must be obeyed" and "she who will not be moved". 

I wish these quiverfull mamas would get the hang of kids as individuals and there are ways to make everyone happy without turning into a stark, raving, bitch about things. (Ok, maybe I did pull the stark, raving bitch card a few times but I'm too lazy to keep that up). Honestly, it's not that hard (if you're not a narcissistic control freak). 

 

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indianabones

No offense to anyone who's a parent, but reading the posts on here makes me really glad to be child-free sometimes.

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JermajestyDuggar
1 hour ago, indianabones said:

No offense to anyone who's a parent, but reading the posts on here makes me really glad to be child-free sometimes.

I totally get why people don’t want kids. I know people who don’t want kids and I never ever question it. I don’t tell them they will change their mind. I don’t tell them they will regret it. Because I honestly doubt they ever will. Kids are a shitload of work. Thankless work. No one tells you good job. No one pays you. It’s not for everyone. I’m saying this as someone who just rinsed a ton of poo out of underwear today. Sigh.

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Kailash
10 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I totally get why people don’t want kids. I know people who don’t want kids and I never ever question it. I don’t tell them they will change their mind. I don’t tell them they will regret it. Because I honestly doubt they ever will. Kids are a shitload of work. Thankless work. No one tells you good job. No one pays you. It’s not for everyone. I’m saying this as someone who just rinsed a ton of poo out of underwear today. Sigh.

Yes! All that and then the guilt! And the worry if you handled a situation in the best way. It’s absolutely never ending. I adore my daughter but parenting is not for everyone. I wish more people would realize and embrace that. I also wish some people didn’t just keep having kid after kid. No one can effectively parent a horde of children alone. 

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Snarkasarus Rex

As someone who swore they didn't want kids, then changed her mind, I too totally get why people don't want kids. 😀

I'm so glad I did have kids, because they are awesome.  But mine are older now (allllmost 10 and 13) so we can do a lot of shit with them we couldn't when they were younger.  We're planning a trip to Japan (their idea) with them in 2022, which would have been unthinkable a few years ago.  Being a parent of babies/toddlers/preschoolers sucked, ngl.  

For those that don't want to be parents, don't give into whatever pressure you might be getting from friends and family!  Because the people who pressure you either 1) regret having kids but won't admit it or 2) have more kids than they wanted.  

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Ozlsn
On 12/31/2020 at 7:27 AM, mango_fandango said:

What exactly is “flipping” laundry? (Don’t know what that says about me...)

I had to ask a couple of threads back too. I still have this mental image of it involving twirling the laundry like pizza dough as you get it out of the washing machine.

4 hours ago, feministxtian said:

By the time they're 30, you'd never know how they were fed as infants. 

With the exception of kids who have ongoing tube feeding if you can see a difference by kindergarten you're doing better than me.

6 hours ago, FilleMondaine said:

There are some attachment brain mechanisms that happen during breastfeeding

Haven't come across that before, what mechanisms are they?

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indianabones
1 hour ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

For those that don't want to be parents, don't give into whatever pressure you might be getting from friends and family!  Because the people who pressure you either 1) regret having kids but won't admit it or 2) have more kids than they wanted.  

My family has been really great about it, fortunately. My mom struggled with infertility for a long time before she had me, so I'm sure people's "well-meaning" comments had a lot to do with it.

I know if I had kids, I would be a really crappy parent plus I lack any desire to get pregnant and raise a child. It's a good combination! 😆

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feministxtian
5 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I totally get why people don’t want kids. I know people who don’t want kids and I never ever question it. I don’t tell them they will change their mind. I don’t tell them they will regret it. Because I honestly doubt they ever will. Kids are a shitload of work. Thankless work. No one tells you good job. No one pays you. It’s not for everyone. I’m saying this as someone who just rinsed a ton of poo out of underwear today. Sigh.

The really shitty part is that the parenting/worrying doesn't magically stop when they're 18. All my kids are over 30 now and dammit, I still worry about them. They also seem to need mom, although in different ways from when they were younger. Sometimes it's parenting advice, sometimes its general life advice, sometimes its just to have someone to listen. I mean, I adore the creatures I created but...the work never stops, the worry never stops. But, neither does the love. Seeing my kids with their kids has been a blast...to see them channel me...to see how personality traits are transmitted. It's cool seeing the future through their eyes. 

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FilleMondaine
14 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

Haven't come across that before, what mechanisms are they?

Here is a quick study, with no guilty undertones, along with a study on Kangaroo care to replicate the attachment. (Sorry, if I had more time, I would look for better examples.) Infant attachment is something separate from "attachment parenting". I hope that I distill this correctly: Infants look to their caregivers to help interpret the world and discern safety. Breastfeeding accomplishes that by showing that (usually a female-identifying mother) sensitive to cues from baby, feeding baby when hungry, skin-to-skin and all the mirror-neuron stuff.

Totally hungover from last night, so if I miss the mark, etc., I am sorry, and I blame 2020.

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Ozlsn
4 hours ago, FilleMondaine said:

Breastfeeding accomplishes that by showing that (usually a female-identifying mother) sensitive to cues from baby, feeding baby when hungry, skin-to-skin and all the mirror-neuron stuff.

So how is this not accomplishing the same thing if you bottle feed or tube feed on demand while holding the baby and wearing a singlet? I'm all for skin to skin contact if it is practical, but I'm still feeling like this is another "oh mothers just prop the bottle and leave the baby while bottlefeeding" or "bottle/tube feeding is always on a schedule" argument variant. 

I still wonder where the studies showing adversely impacted adults are - bottle feeding rates were pretty high in the US in the 1950s-70s, surely someone's done a longitudinal study on outcomes.

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FilleMondaine
53 minutes ago, Ozlsn said:

So how is this not accomplishing the same thing if you bottle feed or tube feed on demand while holding the baby and wearing a singlet? I'm all for skin to skin contact if it is practical, but I'm still feeling like this is another "oh mothers just prop the bottle and leave the baby while bottlefeeding" or "bottle/tube feeding is always on a schedule" argument variant. 

I still wonder where the studies showing adversely impacted adults are - bottle feeding rates were pretty high in the US in the 1950s-70s, surely someone's done a longitudinal study on outcomes.

Still hungover, maybe I can explain this way: Breast-only camp can sometimes weoponise attachment--but you are right that it is totally doable to feed on-demand with a bottle, and do the skin-to-skin, too. That is exactly the point I was trying to make, and my foggy brain is grateful that you can be cogent! I have seen some peer-reviewed studies, but it was a few years ago. They were pretty conclusive about breast is best, and then championed by the breast-only world. And I get it: women have to battle every day for their bodily autonomy (including breastfeeding) to be respected, and numbers help in petitioning bosses, winning lawsuits, etc.

Sometimes, I feel that families with bottle-fed babies feel left out or excluded from feeding help. But lactation consultants can still help, with bottle positioning, nipple selection, formula allergies, tongue tie, weight, etc. And doing the attachment stuff, too. No one should feel isolated or "wrong" if they choose one of the many good ways to feed baby

tl/dr: There are a ton of ways to correctly feed baby. I have strong feelings about supporting mothers in ALL their healthy choices.

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feministxtian

My kids who used a bottle got plenty of mama time...Yes we did skin to skin, yes we did lots of holding and cuddling and all that stuff. I put some miles on my rocking chair with them. I rarely propped a bottle up, usually when another kid needed mama too. 

I don't buy into all that gobbledegook about how you HAVE to do the attachment parenting thing or your kid will be an anxious ball of insecurity. Ok, so my kids have some raging insecurities, but I don't think they had much to do with parenting...I have boychildren who repeatedly need to be reminded that the umbilical cord was cut years ago and an extremely independent girlchild. Her favorite phrase as a toddler was "do by myself". She's still that way. 

Again, feed your damn kid. Bottle, breast, hell, throw 'em a raw steak, I don't care. Being a mom is anxiety inducing enough. 

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tankgirl

The reality is you can't study why breast milk is better, scientifically it's a backwards argument. Breastfeeding is the biological norm, it is the 0 on the scale. It is the starting point. Formula can be better or worse (babies got to eat, but could be allergic to one formula ingredients, my example of better and worse) but the reality is formula is not standardised and changes often, also it's big business,  making studies that make formula companies prove they are providing the best they can get trickier, but we do know they do a good job when needed. Formula like synthetic insulin is better for those who can not provide the biological norm, because it is life or death, babies need clean, regular food and people need insulin. But studying wise breast milk is never "best" any more then other biologically normally occurring things that keep people alive. Both totally have their place, but scientifically speaking if studies were correctly done, Formula would have to prove if it is superior, the same or inferior to the starting point, not breast milk. 

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Notjean

I didn't nurse my babies.  I gave up after a miserable week with my firstborn.  A fundie friend came to me and said, "I will respect you whatever you choose, but if you'd like to try again I will find someone to watch my kids while I spend the day with you.  I'll do your laundry, make lunch for your husband (self-employed), and help with your baby while you sleep, drink lots of fluids, and just focus on trying again."  I didn't try again.  She never brought it up again.  She even bottle fed my baby while I gave one of her kids piano lessons.  I'm forever grateful for her gracious acceptance of my choice. 

One of the biggest things I've learned as a mom is to make the best decision I can, adapt as needs change, and otherwise move forward without worrying WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK.  Sometimes it's been really tough.  Sometimes what's "best for baby" or kids isn't what works best for me/us/our family.   I tend to think in black and white so this mothering thing has been a stretching lesson in learning better to tolerate and respect the choices of others like I want them to do for me. :) I still have a long way to go in perfecting that one! :P 

 

 

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