Justin and Claire 2: Always the One I Forget

[just_ordinary]

20 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

After a few days to process this conversation I think I may have come off a bit too strong. It got a bit emotional for me because thinking about younger me having my teen sexual experiences at 14/15/16 instead of 17/18 was truly horrifying. The first time I had intercourse was at 17 when I was raped by a boyfriend I was in love with. Then there were a string of boys I thought were into me but it turns out they just wanted sex and had heard I was easy. This and all the high school gossip that went with it left me traumatized and depressed my senior year and if I had been a few years younger I may not have survived it. So that's why I felt so concerned about teens having sex. Sorry again if I was too harsh. 

I found some of your arguments harsh- but honestly that is absolutely fine. In no way you came across as rude, unreasonable or too harsh. Being in disagreement is absolutely ok and I think the whole discussion was extremely valuable and respectful. Your explanations about the dynamics between the sexes in US made it perfectly clear where you are coming from. Your personal story (which I am truly sorry for!) explains it further. I hope you are in a good place right now and I am sure you will do whatever you can to help your children (if that is what your future holds) or children you come to care about not to have a similar story. 

Learning about the different socialisations is always important as it clears up a lot of dissonance. 
I am sure I came across harsh at some points- I would file that under heated discussion, but if I hurt you or stepped on your or anyones toes I am truly sorry!

[Nothing if not critical]

Just wanted to add that I spent the past half hour listening in to my 11-year-old daughters zoom class on sex Ed, and I'm so super happy with how her teacher handled it: completely respectful, clear and relaxed, with a heavy emphasis on consent, but also a positive attitude toward sex. 
The kids were allowed to be anonymous in the chat for the lesson, and there was a bit of gossip, but nothing yucky, just honest sharing of experiences. And the teacher was monitoring stuff, but also giving the kids plenty of room for questions and making it clear that they have a right to privacy.

[CarrotCake]

I actually did have my first sexual experiences at 14. Although I was a bit intimidated by my then-boyfriend I also found it exciting. I am happy though that I did not go all the way and waited 2 more years before I lost my virginity to another boyfriend. I was together with this one for 6 months then and we ended up staying together until we were 21.

In hindsight I was way too young at 14 but on the other hand, I felt in control and I was strong enough to not go all the way so I am a bit proud of 14-year-old me. 

[Knight of Ni]

Did it say what they were hunting? 

[Meggo]

On 2/12/2021 at 7:20 AM, JanasTattooParlor said:

American from the Bible Belt here! I grew up in a typically conservative household, and my parents were very strict on my behavior when I was under their roof. My husband, who I started dating at 16, and I were not allowed in my room or even upstairs in my house the whole time I was in high school. We couldn’t even sit on the couch and cuddle together to watch a movie if we wanted to, we had to sit next to each other and could hold hands and that’s it. My parents were obsessed with keeping me a virgin as long as possible. My husband’s parents, on the other hand, let us be in his room with the door closed and would leave us alone in the house while they ran errands, but the one time my parents found out I went and had picked my husband up from his house and no one was there, I was grounded. We didn’t have sex until we’d been dating over a year because I was terrified of my parents finding out, but I would say that compared to my peers, 17 was about normal for us having sex. I don’t really understand the thought of being surprised or disgusted by teens having sex. It’s relatively common and in my experience, almost always happens inside a relationship. I also agree with the poster that said, if teens want to do it, they’ll find a way. My husband and I definitely found ways to have sex while still in high school without our parents knowing. My parents gradually lessened their hold when I was in college, but I still remember my stepmom getting very upset when I told her I’d be staying the night at my future-husbands house when we came home from college for one break. She thought that was incredibly improper despite the fact that she knew we lived in the same dorm at the same college and stayed the night together there. Even after we got engaged, she was wary of us moving in together before marriage and my grandma told me flat out that I would be “living in sin” despite being engaged to the guy and having been with him for 6-7 years.

I think the younger generations are much less conservative about sex than older generations due to the openness around topics such as gender and sexual identity. As a high school teacher, I would say that I think teens are having less sex than previous generations but they are much more confident and comfortable talking about issues surrounding sex including consent. 

Heyyyy - we must be sisters! 
My parents are SO conservative. My high school boyfriend wasn't allowed in my room, we weren't allowed to do anything other than sit on the couch next to each other (sometimes my dad sat in the room too - reading a magazine upside down... sigh). I would love to say they lightened up as I went to college and moved out - but ... no. 
They found out that my boyfriend had spent the night - in my apartment and lost their MINDS. I was 24- and hadn't lived at home since I was 18. Hadn't asked for money from them in years but it was "too much" and he was "taking advantage" of me because he was older. (he was 5 years older - same age difference as my parents and... I was 24!!) 
Then - when we were a few weeks out from our wedding, my cousin was getting married up north. My dad said something like "okay - so we'll need one room for us, one for the girls and one for Mr.Meggo" 
I was confused - because by the time - I was 28, my sisters (the "girls") were 33 and 37 and .. what? 
I said "No - Mr & I will get a room - and I'm sure my sisters can figure their rooms out on their own - as grownups" 
Well - NO - this would not do. I could not share a room with a man!! Never mind that I was going to marry him in less than a month - what would people think??? 
Uh - are they following us to our room? I don't care what they think! (We ended up not going to that wedding anyway but sheesh. 
We've been married now for 19 years and I still don't think they're all that comfortable with the idea that we HAVE had sex.

 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

I was so lucky my parents were progressive. When I was in my early 20s I remember my mom saying "we aren't old fashioned and we're not making him stay on the couch" when my boyfriend came to visit. We lived in the same dorm block and she knew we were sleeping together. They were always very respectful of my relationships. That particular one ended in flames when he cheated (good thing, he was very emotionally abusive but my family didn't know) and I remember my mom asking if I was sure we weren't getting back together before she spoke her mind on him, only to have her tell me she thought he was really cheap and could appreciate me more. Fighting words! I still laugh thinking about it. He was cheap, though, since it was a big deal if he let me get 2 items off the dollar menu at Wendy's.

[neurogirl]

@Meggo i think our parents are from the same school of thought. 

TL/DR: my family is very conservative about sex (and not even religious) and it had consequences. 

My group of friends in high school were the "band nerds" and none of us dated. My parents liked this just fine and were very overprotective so we never had a sex talk beyond "this is where babies come from" when I asked at age 9. I had a summer fling the summer after high school graduation and was the first one of my friends to go on on a date and have a first kiss (after 3 weeks of dating lol). Unfortunately, that relationship ended poorly with some non-consensual touching - a very common story that honestly could've been avoided but I hadn't really had 'the talk' so I was completely unprepared to think about/set my boundaries and communicate them. The boy was not a predator but our fling could just not survive it. We both learned a lot about enthusiastic consent after that!

I went to a Lutheran college and met my future husband there. We started dating freshman year. We were certainly alone together and experienced the beautiful, slow, fun intimacy that imo only exists before sex is "on the table." I was very very cautious about sex, and we waited a year before we tried (I was again the first of my friends at 20). Turns out I have pelvic floor dysfunction and we are STILL (7 years later) working on that aspect of our relationship. But my mom made me get on the pill a few months after I started dating the boyfriend, even though we were abstaining by my choice at that point. 

ANYWAY, boy and I dated throughout college. The entire time, he had to sleep in a separate bedroom when visiting my family. It was so bad that the first time I visited HIS family (at the age of 19 and dating for a year), his mom emailed my mom to assure her that we would have separate rooms and she would be a good chaperone. After this one time, his family let us share a room when I visited and we all just let my parents assume otherwise.

After college graduation, I moved to CA for grad school and my man eventually followed me. My mom was somehow surprised when we moved in together (being in our 20s, college graduates, and dating for 4+ years at that point) and actually told me "he won't buy the cow if he can get the milk for free." (Which, how offensive is that because it sounds like "the cow" has nothing else to offer. And "the cow" couldn't even really have penetrative sex enjoyably so "the farmer" was not staying with "the cow" just for "the milk"' Jesus Christ) 

In fact, even though we were LIVING TOGETHER, the first time my man and I shared a room with the blessing of my parents was the night we got engaged. And that's only because we were in a two bedroom cabin with my parents and they assumed (correctly) that their bedroom being next door would put the kibosh on any sexual celebrations. 

I think my inherent generalized anxiety certainly plays a role in my recently-diagnosed pelvic issues, but my family's feelings regarding sex did not help. I'm realizing I might need to see a sex therapist with or without my husband, as I love him dearly and he's the most respectful, patient man I could ever imagine, but years of shame and sexual pain have made that part of intimacy a whole mindf*ck. Sex, "even" premarital sex, should be fun, and I suffered for years with a medical condition because I was too afraid of being judged or shamed, definitely by my parents but even by doctors. So while I don't love the idea of high schoolers having sex and I loved my own gradual foray into sexual activity, I just have to be more sex-positive to my eventual children than my family was.

Edited February 18, 2021 by neurogirl

[Meggo]

3 hours ago, neurogirl said:

@Meggo i think our parents are from the same school of thought. 

 My mom was somehow surprised when we moved in together (being in our 20s, college graduates, and dating for 4+ years at that point) and actually told me "he won't buy the cow if he can get the milk for free." (Which, how offensive is that because it sounds like "the cow" has nothing else to offer. And "the cow" couldn't even really have penetrative sex enjoyably so "the farmer" was not staying with "the cow" just for "the milk"' Jesus Christ) 

In fact, even though we were LIVING TOGETHER, the first time my man and I shared a room with the blessing of my parents was the night we got engaged. And that's only because we were in a two bedroom cabin with my parents and they assumed (correctly) that their bedroom being next door would put the kibosh on any sexual celebrations. 

I think my inherent generalized anxiety certainly plays a role in my recently-diagnosed pelvic issues, but my family's feelings regarding sex did not help. I'm realizing I might need to see a sex therapist with or without my husband, as I love him dearly and he's the most respectful, patient man I could ever imagine, but years of shame and sexual pain have made that part of intimacy a whole mindf*ck. Sex, "even" premarital sex, should be fun, and I suffered for years with a medical condition because I was too afraid of being judged or shamed, definitely by my parents but even by doctors. So while I don't love the idea of high schoolers having sex and I loved my own gradual foray into sexual activity, I just have to be more sex-positive to my eventual children than my family was.

A friend from high school posted something on FB recently- responding to an article talking about birth control ruined how men perceive women because they used to marry us to have sex and now they can get it anywhere so they don’t value women and protect us and we are left unloved (basic gist of it)

and pretty well- I think that’s what my parents think. That s-e-x ruins everything and children are a punishment for sex (actual words used).

dude... lots to unpack there- like who ruined your life?

(for the record- I am married to the only person I have ever slept with and don’t really care that I am not the only one HE has slept with- because I am NOW.

[The butcher's wife]

@neurogirl, maybe play this to your parents so they can have a better understanding of why one would buy the cow. (It's "why buy the cow?" by John Mulaney).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq75lEnmADc&ab_channel=damionperez

 

[neurogirl]

45 minutes ago, The butcher's wife said:

@neurogirl, maybe play this to your parents so they can have a better understanding of why one would buy the cow. (It's "why buy the cow?" by John Mulaney).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq75lEnmADc&ab_channel=damionperez

 

My husband and I were rolling on the floor watching this!! 

[dawn9476]

Has anyone watched this video on Justin & Claire? It sounds like that marriage will be a trainwreck if true. Justin being able to sneak off with other girls backs up the earlier claim in this thread about Justin feeling neglected by his parents. She also speculates that Justin may have had been given the choice of going to Alert or marrying Claire. He chose marrying Claire. 

[BadMurphy]

If they’re that incompatible she’s going to have a laundry room breakdown before she even has a kid

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

WACB is full of shit

[RosyDaisy]

5 hours ago, dawn9476 said:

Justin being able to sneak off with other girls

It does not surprise me in the least that Justin managed to sneak off with other girls.  Unless they are locked in a dungeon 24/7, some of these fundie teens and young adults will sneak off like that.  Where there's a will there's a way.

[xenobia]

I look at WACB as a hit and miss. I think she gets some things right, while others are speculative and wrong. And it's hard to tell which ones are hits/misses. In this case I wouldn't be surprised if she's right, but we will probably never know. 

[dawn9476]

17 minutes ago, xenobia said:

I look at WACB as a hit and miss. I think she gets some things right, while others are speculative and wrong. And it's hard to tell which ones are hits/misses. In this case I wouldn't be surprised if she's right, but we will probably never know. 

In this video she clearly says that last part about Justin having a choice between Alert and Claire b/c JB may have found out that he was seeing other girls behind Claire's back was pure speculation on her part. 

[kiwi]

WACB is full of shit

Yip, shes bat shit bonkers to boot!

[Sabine]

6 hours ago, BadMurphy said:

If they’re that incompatible she’s going to have a laundry room breakdown before she even has a kid

IT will not matter one bit if she is not compatible with him, she will bend herself to please him any which way. As do all the others. If they want shelter, food, and pin money they better do. 

 

[AprilQuilt]

15 hours ago, dawn9476 said:

Has anyone watched this video on Justin & Claire? It sounds like that marriage will be a trainwreck if true. Justin being able to sneak off with other girls backs up the earlier claim in this thread about Justin feeling neglected by his parents. She also speculates that Justin may have had been given the choice of going to Alert or marrying Claire. He chose marrying Claire. 

god, her delivery is terrible. I haven't watched a WACB video before and only made it through 6 mins of this. Also none of it's new news to anyone with eyes? Yes, Justin is 'immature', he's only just turned 18. Claire may well be 'serious' and mature but there's nothing out there for her but marriage anyway, so this is the only version of success she'll ever have an opportunity for if she stays within her community.

And why the surprise that she would stay with Justin if he was still putting it about? Women decades older than her have been conditioned into doing the 'pick me dance' to keep a guy with a roving eye - even in a secular world women are afraid of being left, and believe that being the one a no-good dirty dog chooses to stay with is some kind of prize. And for Claire it will be particularly important on a spiritual level that she is the woman who 'kept' Justin and 'fixed' him. It's part of her testament.

Finally, why is this WACB woman talking about them as if they are living adult lives? Yes, Justin is far too young for marriage, and he may well be enjoying the fact that other girls his age are attracted to him, the excitement of whatever new grown-up intimacy and attention he now has access to. Lots of teenagers have that phase. And yes it definitely means they shouldn't be getting married, but it's not like an adult guy cheating on his long-term girlfriend at ALL. I'm not saying he's squeaky clean, but my god he's so young! To draw conclusions about him as if he were a mature adult is to do him the same disservice as his family.

I totally get that since marriage is the only option for gaining more freedom and individuality, he's grabbing it with both hands, but I do think that there is additionally the element that's been discussed on here a lot - that it's an opportunity to be part of a family he seems to enjoy being around, and who probably give him more and better parenting than he gets at home. I just don't think it's all about being an adult for him, it's actually about him getting to regress slightly within Spivey family life, do normal family things, and be cared for as if he were one of their kids and not one of JB and M's.

[lumpentheologie]

Can we please refrain from this kind of speculation (esp since it's totally without evidence), until Justin is married? Imo it falls under the no speculation on the sexuality of kids living at home rule. 

[AprilQuilt]

In case it wasn't clear, I was more responding to WACB's speculation. I've no opinion on what Justin is or isn't like, but I do feel that basing judgement and gossip on the way a stranger allegedly behaved at the age of 16 or 17 is distasteful and stupid.

[Glasgowghirl]

Without a Crystal Ball is like Pickles worse than most of the people she snarks on and is getting sued by Tati and James Westbrook because she spent more than a year cyber stalking them, accused James of basically killing his mother for her money and being a career criminal when he had 2 arrests for weed possession 30 years ago and he was a teen at the time. She accused a 9 year old alleged abuse victim of being a liar and a brat, she was encouraging people to protest outside Myka and James Stauffer's House, what they did to Huxley was horrible but they have 4 children who don't deserve to be harassed. She leaked the texts Jenelle Eason told her in confidence about David being violent to her, I can't stand Jenelle but David has already proved himself to be unhinged and I fear he will kill her and/or her children one day. Her husband is rumoured to have Nazi links too. 

[VBOY9977]

Who’s betting on this weekend being wedding weekend? 
The first registry that was found for Justin and Claire had a Feb 26th date, and now Jana, Laura and Jason are in TX

[artdecades]

Their official registry says April 16, so I’m going with that. 
 

I just noticed that Hilary follows this INSANE Instagram account full of racist, antisemitic, and generally insane conspiracy theories. Full of Q anon stuff. 
 

https://instagram.com/thenationoftexas?igshid=4mt3qcyabmr1

 

True colors. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by artdecades

[justmy2cents]

36 minutes ago, VBOY9977 said:

Who’s betting on this weekend being wedding weekend? 
The first registry that was found for Justin and Claire had a Feb 26th date, and now Jana, Laura and Jason are in TX

Hilary said that it was a fake registry and then they shared the real one. I wouldn’t be surprised if the date on the real registry was fake though since previous couples had fake dates on theirs.