Justin and Claire 2: Always the One I Forget

[Austrian Atheist]

I'm Austrian in Austria but I often have to speak with non-native speakers at work. So I have started to speak proper Hochdeutsch instead of dialect. Some Autrians even asked me tauntingly if I'm German. I don't really care. I don't think it's polite to speak dialect at work knowingly the other person cannot understand you. Some German expats also worry that they don't pronaunce Austrian words correctly. I tell them jokingly not to worry because I'm "bilingual".

[just_ordinary]

@Nothing if not critical Agree. 13 year olds can not give consent in any constellation here either. 
I am also surprised where all the adults that want to have sex with teenagers come from in the comments? It was never about adults having sex with teenagers? Our laws have clear regulations in terms of age groups. 14 year olds can not give consent to adults. 
I’d like to think that we teach our teenagers that they shouldn’t pressure/give into pressure. Feel free to express what they like or not. Accept and express a NO. 
When I think back - in the 80s/90s most teenagers got a lot of sex Ed through a VERY popular magazine. There was a Q&A Question on those topics and a double spread, where a young woman and a young man answered questions about experiences, puberty. Both posed naked (but not in a sexual way and not together), so we had a fairly good idea about how different bodies look and how the other sex looks. Consent and feeling ready were big topics even then. The people I have talked to about sex, definitely don’t regret their first sexual experiences or relationships in general.  And from what I read between the lines I would say that is the majority.

Cultural differences regarding consent, bodily autonomy and privacy (and so much more) are fine and should be accepted. It’s good to realise this, as it explains some heated discussions we had. Just think about Kelton and Josie- most agreed that their special situation (upbringing, mindset etc) makes her extremely vulnerable and his attentions rub the wrong way. But the discussion got very heated when generalising statements came up. 
 

[Nothing if not critical]

9 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

When I think back - in the 80s/90s most teenagers got a lot of sex Ed through a VERY popular magazine. There was a Q&A Question on those topics and a double spread, where a young woman and a young man answered questions about experiences, puberty. Both posed naked (but not in a sexual way and not together), so we had a fairly good idea about how different bodies look and how the other sex looks.

Ah, good old Bravo... Those were the days... 

I took one of those magazines with me as authentic reading material for the kids when I went to the UK as an assistant teacher in 1992. It was immediately confiscated because the teachers thought it was pornographic. Which was as far from the intended purpose (sex ed) as it could be.

9 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

The people I have talked to about sex, definitely don’t regret their first sexual experiences or relationships in general.

Agree. It wasn't perfect (and I don't think it's fair to expect teenage boys to be instant sex gods either), but neither abusive nor something I regret.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Nothing if not critical

[farmerannie]

I wanted to weigh in on the sex in the US talk. I do believe that it also depends on where you live in the US on how parents are with their children. I grew up in NM.

I grew up in a very conservative Christian household. It was taught that we should not have sex until marriage but my grandparents were not into courting. We were encouraged to date and to date more than one boy. We weren't chaperoned but I wasn't allowed to go on non group dates until I was 16. That being said I do believe that some of the beliefs I was taught were very harmful for me. I did not wait until I was married to have sex but I did marry the first person I had sex with. I was taught that no other man would want me so I best stick with the one that I had already had. That led me to teach my children a very different way than I was taught. 

I taught my children that they should not feel ruined by sex and that it is a natural thing, and it is absolutely unnecessary to marry the first person they choice to have sex with if that is their choice. My girls are very open and honest with me about their sex life's and both of them were 18 when they had sex for the first time. I do know that most of their friends were 16 or 17, I just think my girls really wanted to be sure they were ready for the emotional aspects that come with having sex. 

I do think in the US we do not teach our children that it is ok to talk to your parents about sex and I am hoping that this is something that will change. I know that it helps my girls a lot to be able to talk to me about it and get advice. I will admit that it can be awkward at times, especially because one of my girls is an over sharer lol, but I just try to listen and be helpful.

All that being said, my kids were allowed to go to the mall and places to hang out with there friends unsupervised in the 8th grade and beyond. We live in a very safe town so it is a lot different situation than most. We do not have any public transportation to speak of so parents were driving the kids were they wanted to go. I also was a very happy parent the day my kids got their drivers license so I didn't have to take them everywhere anymore.

 

[Mrs Ms]

Regarding the worry about teens and STDs and pregnancy. I can’t stress enough just how much people used condoms as teens where I lived as a teen in Germany. (Rural, small town)
Sure, many females were taking the pill, but everyone still used condoms. Most of my friends where male and horrified of the idea of having a one night stand without them. Even in relationships the discussion to stop using them and rely exclusively on the pill never came up before 6 months exclusively dating. Using them for years wasn’t unheard of.

Then I moved back to New Zealand and just UGH! “He doesn’t/I don’t like the feel” “he is allergic to latex” “I don’t like taking the time to put it on” “I didn’t have any with me” were the usual excuses. Considering you can get condoms for free here, even the latex-free ones, this infuriated me. (At least at the school and two doctors clinics that serviced the area I lived in)

Teen pregnancy and high STD rates are common here for a reason. ?

[just_ordinary]

2 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

Thanks for the German encouragement! It's true, I started with German around 30, so it's not like learning as a kid. The grammar is bad enough that I've thrown books against the wall because I know what all the words mean individually but can't work them into a sentence. And dialects are nearly impossible---my husband's grandmother only speaks in Fränkisch so I understand maybe every other word even now. But most people are encouraging and are happy to speak nice slow, clear Hochdeutsch with me. ?

Coming to Germany and dating Germans and eventually meeting my husband here was quite an experience for me, and it's made me think a lot about similarities and differences with the US and how culturally specific a lot of things that I took for granted are. 

Ahhhh fränkisch. In my ears the nicest dialect we have. It has such a beautiful ring to it. I actually noticed that I am definitely more trustworthy when people have a bit of a francoian slang. 
I am sure you are doing great. Settling into a new country is hard. Language, culture and traditions, food.... I admire the work it takes to strike a balance between assimilation and preservation. We work hard to keep the British spirit up at least a bit, since everyone else is back in the UK. (We could do better though. Apart from speaking an appalling mix of German and English, the Queen’s Christmas speech and a monthly Sunday roast  we haven’t accomplished much in that regard.) Different influences are great to question things and can be a massive benefit. So I am sure your family will benefit massively from your background and having a different perspective on topics. 

This board was definitely a massive wake up call to me. I never realised just how different Germany and the US are. It has given me many insights and it definitely added a more layers to my understanding of for example news from your country. It also has given me many occasions where I realised my own opinion didn’t rest on the superior arguments, or showed me equally as plausible opinions. 

[Nothing if not critical]

15 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

Ahhhh fränkisch. In my ears the nicest dialect we have. It has such a beautiful ring to it. I actually noticed that I am definitely more trustworthy when people have a bit of a francoian slang. 

Hey, that's my native dialect, so thanks! I've lost most of it after twenty years in Berlin, but I can still roll my "r"s, and with enough practice, I'm sure it would come back .

Also, ITA to everything else you've said! Here's to learning more about other cultures and hopefully becoming more tolerant as a result of it!

Edited February 11, 2021 by Nothing if not critical

[just_ordinary]

9 hours ago, Nothing if not critical said:

Hey, that's my native dialect, so thanks! I've lost most of it after twenty years in Berlin, but I can still roll my "r"s, and with enough practice, I'm sure it would come back .

Also, ITA to everything else you've said! Here's to learning more about other cultures and hopefully becoming more tolerant as a result of it!

? I think me not carrying on the dialect was my parents biggest disappointment. Not even a rolling r when I spent the week with my grandparents.

[Nothing if not critical]

10 hours ago, farmerannie said:

That led me to teach my children a very different way than I was taught. 

Can I just say that I think this is so awesome? I have nothing but respect for people who can take a look at what they were taught growing up and decide against perpetuating what was harmful. You don't need my approval but for what it's worth, I think you're a fantastic mom and you're doing something wonderful for your kids (also, I feel you on the occasional awkwardness - it's so worth it, though!).

[Smee]

This whole discussion has been very interesting to read. I grew up in Australia (born in the UK, so probably some English influences on my parents’ approach too) and between time spent as a high school teacher and now a YA fiction author (whose first novel was about consent!) I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on the range of attitudes to teen sex here. It seems we’re somewhere in between the US and German ideas - age of consent is 16 (and the idea of being “shocked” by a 17yr old in a 6mth plus relationship having sex DOES sound conservative to me) but I get the impression that in reality 16 is the “average” rather than the minimum. Two 14 or 15 year olds having sex would be unlikely to have parental approval, but it wouldn’t be prosecuted either and it depends how liberal the parents are and how long the teens have been together I guess. A friend recently took her 15 year old to the Dr to go on the pill but then again that same friend gave birth to said daughter when SHE was fifteen and very much does not want history to repeat. I think there is a massive difference between 13 and 15, moreso than there is between 16 and 18, but I do wonder if the middle school thing is an influence? Here, high school is from year 7 (11/12 year olds at the start of the year) to year 12 (17/18 year olds by the end of the year) and they really do seem to go all the way from children to adults in those years. Also, they’re legally adults in every way (drinking, voting, criminal responsibility, marrying, buying houses etc) at 18.

We consume a LOT of American media, which I think influences thoughts about sex too. Definitely that male-centric view was the norm until fairly recently, but that’s one of the things that young feminists and media creators are now pushing back against. I think today’s teenagers have a better idea of female pleasure, consent, and non-heteronormative relationships than my generation did, and I’m not old (millennial). 

Christianity is complicated, we’re not a super religious country but the parts that ARE religious are a mix. We have fundies and conservative Christians who are comparable to the US, but neither in the same proportion of the population as the US. Within the Protestant Christian subculture that I became part of in my teen years, sex before marriage was and is a no-no. This led to me crying my eyes out as a nineteen year old the day after I had (consensual) sex because I felt so guilty and confused, and marrying Mr Smee at 21 pretty certain that I would never have sex with more than one person in my life. At Christian private schools, teenagers having sex would be scandalous and gossip worthy. At public high schools (which many Christian kids also attend), it would not. Sex Ed is a thing wherever you go, it’s part of the school curriculum, so everyone knows about condoms and STIs from year 8 regardless, but it seems the Christian kids are still the ones more likely to get pregnant. Maybe because they THINK they won’t have sex and so they don’t buy the condoms? Or maybe it’s just that the non-Christian kids quietly have abortions (which are legal and accessible). And there’s this weird tiptoeing around it because we preach both no-sex-before-marriage AND no-abortions and forgiveness, so all the churches I’ve attended have a couple of young unwed mothers in the congregation. Their pregnancies become these things where everyone supports them and wants to cuddle the babies but with a “making the best of a bad situation” kind of attitude. And they’re almost certainly talked about behind their back. That still beats one pastor I once had who asked a pregnant 19 year old to stand up in front of the church and publicly repent of her sin though ?

 

oh, also, it is WILD to me that the US is so pearl-clutchy about teenagers having sex and yet still has a bunch of states where child marriage is legal if the parents give permission. It’s almost certainly related to the sex-before-marriage attitudes (& highly unlikely anyone on FJ approves) but the idea that it’s better to have a married 17 year old having sex with her husband than an unmarried 17 year old having sex with her boyfriend is so hard to wrap my head around.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Smee

[JanasTattooParlor]

American from the Bible Belt here! I grew up in a typically conservative household, and my parents were very strict on my behavior when I was under their roof. My husband, who I started dating at 16, and I were not allowed in my room or even upstairs in my house the whole time I was in high school. We couldn’t even sit on the couch and cuddle together to watch a movie if we wanted to, we had to sit next to each other and could hold hands and that’s it. My parents were obsessed with keeping me a virgin as long as possible. My husband’s parents, on the other hand, let us be in his room with the door closed and would leave us alone in the house while they ran errands, but the one time my parents found out I went and had picked my husband up from his house and no one was there, I was grounded. We didn’t have sex until we’d been dating over a year because I was terrified of my parents finding out, but I would say that compared to my peers, 17 was about normal for us having sex. I don’t really understand the thought of being surprised or disgusted by teens having sex. It’s relatively common and in my experience, almost always happens inside a relationship. I also agree with the poster that said, if teens want to do it, they’ll find a way. My husband and I definitely found ways to have sex while still in high school without our parents knowing. My parents gradually lessened their hold when I was in college, but I still remember my stepmom getting very upset when I told her I’d be staying the night at my future-husbands house when we came home from college for one break. She thought that was incredibly improper despite the fact that she knew we lived in the same dorm at the same college and stayed the night together there. Even after we got engaged, she was wary of us moving in together before marriage and my grandma told me flat out that I would be “living in sin” despite being engaged to the guy and having been with him for 6-7 years.

I think the younger generations are much less conservative about sex than older generations due to the openness around topics such as gender and sexual identity. As a high school teacher, I would say that I think teens are having less sex than previous generations but they are much more confident and comfortable talking about issues surrounding sex including consent. 

[raayx01]

Do you think Jill will be invited to the wedding, It looks like she is home right now.

[AussieKrissy]

2 hours ago, raayx01 said:

Do you think Jill will be invited to the wedding, It looks like she is home right now.

Has the wedding been confirmed to be today? What did I miss? What wedding? Claritin? What rock have I been under. 

Oh the twins in suit pic? Is that what I missed possible groomsmen? BEC her but the curly haired one could have gotten a haircut if he was in a wedding party. 
Edit and the other one could have had a shave. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by AussieKrissy

[Cheetah]

52 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

Has the wedding been confirmed to be today? What did I miss? What wedding? Claritin? What rock have I been under. 

Oh the twins in suit pic? Is that what I missed possible groomsmen? BEC her but the curly haired one could have gotten a haircut if he was in a wedding party. 
Edit and the other one could have had a shave. 

I missed that pic but there was one of Jana on a plane yesterday and I'm pretty sure she said she was heading to Texas.  

[Tangy Bee]

Curious to know where the kids/adults will be honeymooning during a global pandemic. ?

[BadMurphy]

3 hours ago, Tangy Bee said:

Curious to know where the kids/adults will be honeymooning during a global pandemic. ?

Some southern beach town that doesn’t care about Covid. They’ll say Claire went there as a child (drove past it once on the way to Jesuspalooza) or someone’s Grandparents went there 60 years ago and they loved Jesus so it holds a special place in their heart

[lumpentheologie]

After a few days to process this conversation I think I may have come off a bit too strong. It got a bit emotional for me because thinking about younger me having my teen sexual experiences at 14/15/16 instead of 17/18 was truly horrifying. The first time I had intercourse was at 17 when I was raped by a boyfriend I was in love with. Then there were a string of boys I thought were into me but it turns out they just wanted sex and had heard I was easy. This and all the high school gossip that went with it left me traumatized and depressed my senior year and if I had been a few years younger I may not have survived it. So that's why I felt so concerned about teens having sex. Sorry again if I was too harsh. 

[Nothing if not critical]

34 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

Sorry again if I was too harsh.

FWIW,  you weren't, at least as far as I'm concerned. As I said, it was good to have such a respectful decision, and at no point did I feel you were judgmental or harsh. Some of the things you said were difficult for me to understand, but you did a great job of explaining them.
And reading about your own horrrible experiences made me understand even better (and also made me want to hug you, so virtual hugs if you want them). I'm so very sorry you had to go through all that.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Nothing if not critical

[Four is Enough]

I'm missing the "go to top" and "edit" features. Can someone direct me?

[SeekingAdventure]

I want to add to that too @lumpentheologie

I do not think you were to harsh, I also understood your point. With the added info now, it makes me understand better too, I think if you had a personal experience, which in your case you clearly have, it makes it so much more vivid to you.

Not to jump on that train again, but I think that's also why I defended my point so fervently. I lived it, and it is a sensitive issue for me, due to my experience. Same thing for you!

I'd like to say thank you for clearing it up, even though you didn't have to, and hugs to you!

 

and on a very personal note, I had my first sexual experiences when I was 17 too, and it was terrible. Since then, I'm very careful and picky. I feel like now I am so careful that if I ever meet someone I really like and get along with, I might actually be afraid due to my inexperience. A global pandemic also does not help in that regards.

[Chickenbutt]

@Four is EnoughCommunity Discussion. Update thread I think it is. 

The three dots on your post (top right) will give you the edit feature and the go to top is now an arrow in the bottom right of your screen. And the unread content is now a black dot before the name of the thread in case you miss that too. Much clearer explanations in the COmmunity Discussion thread. 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Chickenbutt
More info

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

I'm missing the "go to top" and "edit" features. Can someone direct me?

 

3 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

@Four is EnoughCommunity Discussion. Update thread I think it is. 

What @Chickenbutt said.  There's a post here about "go to top" and "edit".

I would definitely recommend reading the thread to any poster. Plus, we have two other new discussions in Community Discussion--one about maybe being able to add another reaction option or two, and one about two factor verification.

https://www.freejinger.org/forum/219-community-discussion/

[Chickenbutt]

@WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?Thanks for adding the add'l info. 

[artdecades]

I don’t think it’s today unless it’s really small. Joy is posting that she and Austin are hunting today. Plus we know these people will take a plane ride to get a cup of coffee so who knows where Jana was going. 

[Snarkasarus Rex]

2 minutes ago, artdecades said:

I don’t think it’s today unless it’s really small. Joy is posting that she and Austin are hunting today. Plus we know these people will take a plane ride to get a cup of coffee so who knows where Jana was going. 

I think it’s the 26th, unless Joy’s post is a red herring and it is this weekend. That was the original date on their registry before they changed it to Apr. Apr makes no sense because it’s prime construction season and most of the registry items have already been purchased. ?