Justin and Claire 2: Always the One I Forget

[SeekingAdventure]

What I always find very striking is the contrast the US has.

• there's the very conservative thought that some of you guys mention, having sex before you are 18 is scandalous etc
• but then again, compared to the rest of the world, the teen pregnancy rates are very high (even though they are decreasing, from what I understand
• US considers itself conservative, but if you watch TV shows or movies (and yes, obviously they do not portray the reality) it glorifies partying etc
• Porn Industry
• Sex sells

A colleague of mine has been with her boyfriend for several years, and her parents and sister live in California now, and her sisters friends find it shocking that a mid-20 y-o (my colleague) partly lives with her boyfriend.. It's really absurd.

[lumpentheologie]

5 minutes ago, mpheels said:

Overprotectiveness or “helicopter” parenting varies a lot in different parts of the US. I was allowed to ride my bike pretty much anywhere starting in seventh grade (early 1990s), and that was in a midsize college town in the south. Now I live in a Boston, where middle school age kids use public transit to go to and from school on their own. Same in Baltimore, where I used to live. I think some small town and suburban parents in the US would be shocked by the level of independence that kids in US cities have.

I think it also depends a lot on the family and neighborhood. When I lived in NYC a few years ago there were regularly shootings within a few blocks of my apartment and I’d never have let an 11 year old walk around there by herself. And that was a relatively “good” neighborhood. Now of course there were families who had to let their kids go around by themselves because their parents were working and they didn’t have good childcare options, but I wouldn’t call it advisable. 

Also eastern cities tend to have a lot better public transit than western ones. My cousins growing up in LA in the 90s had zero freedom to go places before they could drive. 

[Nothing if not critical]

1 hour ago, lumpentheologie said:

I guess I think having sex is also potentially endangering others. You can get someone else pregnant or give them diseases (even bad ones like HIV or cervical cancer). Teenagers having sex are also much more likely to be emotionally abusive or neglectful of their partners. I'd guess that teenagers who are sexually active are in greater danger of having their consent violated than ones who aren't. And these kinds of damage seem much more common than getting in car accidents.

Apologies if I'm spamming this thread, but on rereading this I noticed that, to me, this seems like such a very negative view of sex. For me, even with teens, the focus would far more be on discovering something fun to do together, on being in love for the first time, and so on. Sure, you need to be responsible about sex, but abuse and diseases wouldn't be the first thing on my mind.

And even so, that would be one more reason to keep the channels of communication open, so you can help them navigate the possible problems. If sex were a taboo topic in our house, how could I make sure they understand about consent and prevention?

[lumpentheologie]

29 minutes ago, Nothing if not critical said:

Apologies if I'm spamming this thread, but on rereading this I noticed that, to me, this seems like such a very negative view of sex. For me, even with teens, the focus would far more be on discovering something fun to do together, on being in love for the first time, and so on. Sure, you need to be responsible about sex, but abuse and diseases wouldn't be the first thing on my mind.

And even so, that would be one more reason to keep the channels of communication open, so you can help them navigate the possible problems. If sex were a taboo topic in our house, how could I make sure they understand about consent and prevention?

I mean I think it's a realistic view of sex, at least for teenagers in the US. Young men and adolescents are more often than not terrible partners to the girls they're dating. Germany doesn't sexual objectify girls and women to nearly the same extent that the US does, and men are much less entitled about women's bodies than in the US. Germans are also much more frank and honest in relationships and about sexuality in general. Some of that is education but it's also just the culture. I know very few American women who had sex as teenagers and feel that they came out of it without being mistreated or taken advantage of. Most American girls are taught to ignore/downplay their own needs and desires so as not to "ruin it" for the guy, and guys mostly expect to be catered to. That is changing now but not as much as it needs to. So given that it's much safer to postpone sex than to just hope your kid is one of the lucky few who don't have bad experiences (or inflict them on others).  Teenage sex is far from harmless fun. 

I consider myself very sex positive, but that means for consenting adults, not underage teens. I do think parents (and schools) should educate teens about consent and prevention, but for me at least that stops far short of providing a space for them to have sex in. And I also think we could be less threatening in how we do that. My mother made it clear to me that I could come to her if I needed an abortion in the same way that I could call her if I was at a party and had no safe ride home---with the subtext that she would help me but I would also be in big trouble. 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by lumpentheologie

[Nothing if not critical]

33 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

but for me at least that stops far short of providing a space for them to have sex in.

I'm not "providing a space for them to have sex in"! I'm providing a place to live and feel safe in, and if they decide to have sex there, I respect their privacy. Not the same thing, imho.

As I said, I'd never encourage my kid to have sex at 15. I'd much prefer she waits another two or three years, and I'm happy to tell her all the reasons she should. But if she decides otherwise, it wouldn't be the end of the world. I trust her to be responsible, but if she got pregnant, she certainly wouldn't be in trouble with me. I wouldn't be happy about it but I'd do everything in my power to help her find a good solution, just like my mom would have done for me. As far as I'm concerned, the last thing she'd need at that moment is being afraid to tell her parents about it.

[lumpentheologie]

1 hour ago, SeekingAdventure said:

there's the very conservative thought that some of you guys mention, having sex before you are 18 is scandalous etc

So not approving of teen sex is "very conservative?"  That's so weird to me. 

 

In the US I'd say the spectrum of "when is sex okay" goes about as follows:

Very conservative: no physical intimacy till marriage

Conservative: no sex till marriage but some intimacy okay

Center-right: sex in a relationship probably leading to marriage is okay

Center left: sex in a committed relationship is okay

Liberal: sex when you’re single is fine, even without exclusivity

Very liberal: polyamory is fine

 

I consider myself in the very liberal category. In the US pretty much only pedophiles think 14 or 15 year olds having sex is okay. 

[Nothing if not critical]

11 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

In the US pretty much only pedophiles think 14 or 15 year olds having sex is okay. 

Can we not use the pedophilia accusation here, please? Pedophilia is clearly defined as sexual attraction to prepubescent children. No one is talking about that here. Teens having sex may be problematic in so many ways, but it's not pedophilia.

As for the rest, it's the Overton window at work, I guess. Shift the items in your list one or two slots upward, and you've got the situation here.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Nothing if not critical

[lumpentheologie]

15 minutes ago, Nothing if not critical said:

I'm not "providing a space for them to have sex in"! I'm providing a place to live and feel safe in, and if they decide to have sex there, I respect their privacy. Not the same thing, imho.

I guess to me that seems like the same thing. Maybe it's just cultural differences in how much privacy children are allowed. When I was living with my parents I wasn't allowed to have a boy in my room with the door closed (let alone overnight), and I would follow the same policy with my 14-16 year old kids. I might consider letting at 17 year old in a serious relationship have their partner spend the night, but even that I think would be shocking to most Americans. I don't think it's unreasonable for parents to set these kind of boundaries with their teenagers. 

1 minute ago, Nothing if not critical said:

Can we not use the pedophilia accusation here, please? Pedophilia is clearly defined as sexual attraction to prepubescent children. No one is talking about that here. Teens having sex may be problematic in so many ways, but it's not pedophilia.
 

I didn't think I was making any accusations, just stating a fact. In the US conversations about young teens having sex are mostly about guarding them from sexual predation. And the only adults saying they should be allowed to have sex are ones that want to have sex with them. What would you call those adults? 

You may disagree, but I maintain, as I said in another thread, that 13 or 14 year olds having sex (even with each other) is by definition abusive, since they are too young to give meaningful consent (even if they think they're choosing it). 

[Nothing if not critical]

3 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

I don't think it's unreasonable for parents to set these kind of boundaries with their teenagers. 

Not unreasonable at all - if that's how your culture handles it and what you feel comfortable with, that's fine. I didn't mean to imply that it's wrong or silly.

It's just not how I would handle it, and I don't think my approach is unreasonable either. To me, it all comes down to trusting my kid and teaching her to make her own decisions about her own body. She's in possession of all the information she needs, and I've given her sensible advice. At some point, I have to let her go and hope for the best. And if things go wrong, I'm there to help her. 

It also depends on the kid, obviously. With my daughter, I know that threats and sanctions simply don't work. She needs to be convinced, and she needs to be trusted. We do have rules and curfews and all that, but those are always open to discussion and adjustments if necessary.

[Irishy]

Interesting perspectives from US and Germany etc.

I’ll give you the Irish perspective. Age of consent is 17. Sex education is improving. New policy is that it’s mandatory for all schools regardless of religion. Consent is part of that new policy. 
It’s definitely not standard for teens to sleep over in each other’s houses. Catholic hangover. But it’s not unexpected either that teens will have sex. My sister lives in Belgium married to an Italian guy and her 18 yo daughter has boyfriend to stay often. That did shock me a little. But that’s the cultural catholic hangover.

Re kids out and about. Ireland is considered very safe. My own kids would walk to and from school (1km) alone from about age 8. By 12 they were allowed to take the bus into the city with friends to go shopping, eat etc. 

[Nothing if not critical]

38 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

And the only adults saying they should be allowed to have sex are ones that want to have sex with them. What would you call those adults? 

You may disagree, but I maintain, as I said in another thread, that 13 or 14 year olds having sex (even with each other) is by definition abusive,

I'd call them sexual predators, but I wouldn't use the term pedophile, no. But that may be just me - I prefer precise definitions and I like to keep different things separate.

As for the 13 or 14 year olds - no disagreements here, but can I just note that we're on a sliding scale here regarding the age of consent we're discussing? We started out with 17/16 year olds staying the night, and then with each post it went down, and now we're suddenly at 13. For the record, I don't approve of 13-year-olds having sex. Ever. Not in their own room, not with their boyfriend of six months, not in any other situation. 
 

ETA: I really appreciate that we can have a respectful and open discussion about the topic, and I do apologise if I've said anything offensive or irritating. It can be hard to express subtleties in a language other than your own and I'm doing my best to be clear and polite. Please let me know if I fail.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Nothing if not critical

[SeekingAdventure]

No, I am not saying that

1 hour ago, lumpentheologie said:

So not approving of teen sex is "very conservative?"  That's so weird to me.

Sometimes I feel like things are being understand wrong because people want to understand them a certain way

referenced to the 13 or 14 year olds having sex with each other (which I never said was ok, I merely said it happened, and that's a fact, not something that I celebrate. Wheter it is abuse or not was never the question, my point there was completely different, but I already realized that some want to understand my point differently, and as I was personally involved with these people, as mentioned in that thread, I might also have a different understanding of the described situation as other people would have) - I am refering to a post in the Bates thread, where I described a situation where several kids, that were 13 or 14 at the time, had unprotected sex with several people and got pregnant and had several abortions. My point was that, besides the fact that they probably shouldn't have had sex, maybe if you do, you should use Birth control other than using abortion as birth control.

------------------

I am saying that it is striking how much contrast there is. This is referencing to above mentioned posts that people think it is scandalous, that 16 or 17 year olds, or even over 18 year olds in committed relationships have sleepovers with each other, and might have sex with them in a safe space.

Also, in the same country, the rate of teen pregnancys is very high etc.. as I wrote above. So basically, I was actually pointing out the same point than you did, about the range between conservative and liberal. Since I am not in the US, I would not  define it the way you do, but PLEASE do not put words in my mouth.

I NEVER ever said that everybody should be ok with kids having sex with each other. I however think, like many other people, it is better to create a safe space for older teenagers in relationships, as opposed to having them sneak around

Edited February 11, 2021 by SeekingAdventure
added what I refered to

[kmachete14]

The knee-jerk reaction for many moms, even liberal moms, is that sex is so skewed in America to be “for men” that most teenage girls’ first sexual experience is either (and this is with a totally Hetero lense btw): 

a) want their boyfriend to love them, feel pressured that it’s something they can “give” a guy, think their relationship is more real if they “give” their man this type of “love” 

b) coerced by an assault (rape?) 

c) a free choice done in excited exploration with a willing and eager to please guy, adrenaline & excitement from taboo factor 

Neither option really includes female pleasure (even c at first due to clueless Americans not knowing what a cl*t is), and the risk is often way greater than any reward for the girl: 

- STDs, pregnancy, parental disapproval, rumors/reputation, dissolution of the relationship, guilt, trauma, PTSD 

I was a horny super feminist with controlling conservative parents who found a way to have “safe” sex during high school and college and lots of it. Only a few of the encounters were actually mutually pleasurable. It’s like I was exerting my right to have sex but the men were just a little clueless and it took some time for me to be comfortable saying DO THIS. 
 

My point is that the conversation shouldn’t just be about safe sex. It should be about GOOD sex + exploration, enthusiastic consent, anatomy. 
 

I don’t mind if my teenage daughter is having sex if it’s safe, but equally important I hope she’s getting real pleasure out of it! 

From what I have seen on tik tok, it seems the more liberal half of Gen Z is way more open about sexual communication, masturbation, the existence of the cl*t, and boys actually needing to be tuned in to their partner’s pleasure. It’s still rife with future incels & Christians teaching soul ties too though. 
 

 

ADDED: and the “for men” American view makes dads fear it even more — they know that the standard is to emotionally bait a girlfriend into “giving” sex, coerce a girl into sex, or best case scenario, mutual exploration but general cluelessness of men do to lack of sex Ed/anatomy Ed. Based on their own upbringing, men/friends they know, etc. Super toxic!!!!!! 
 

ADDED: hence why it’s easier for many parents to just preach abstinence, marriage, because they are assuming that will protect their children from all the bad experiences and it also absolves them from awkwardly teaching how to have GOOD sex. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by kmachete14

[Alaniel]

Okay, first post, weird context, but whatever.

I just wanted to say, that I really appreciate how calm and polite this conversation is on both sides.

And, @lumpentheologie, I'm actually German, as well, and so my experiences are very like @Nothing if not critical, but your explanations in this thread have helped me so much in understanding US attitudes towards this, that I really want to thank you for taking the time to explain. And you have done so in a great manner, in a debate where you probably find "our" way of dealing with this as baffling and confusing as "we" sometimes find "yours" and where there is so much potential for a conversation to turn into a fight because the topic is so sensitive. It would be so easy for both sides to feel attacked here as not protecting their children or raising them the wrong way, which is probably one reason discussions like this usually end badly.

2 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

 Young men and adolescents are more often than not terrible partners to the girls they're dating. Germany doesn't sexual objectify girls and women to nearly the same extent that the US does, and men are much less entitled about women's bodies than in the US. Germans are also much more frank and honest in relationships and about sexuality in general. Some of that is education but it's also just the culture. I know very few American women who had sex as teenagers and feel that they came out of it without being mistreated or taken advantage of. Most American girls are taught to ignore/downplay their own needs and desires so as not to "ruin it" for the guy, and guys mostly expect to be catered to. That is changing now but not as much as it needs to. So given that it's much safer to postpone sex than to just hope your kid is one of the lucky few who don't have bad experiences (or inflict them on others).  Teenage sex is far from harmless fun. 

I had no idea it was this bad. I mean, it's not easy growing up as a woman over here, but that most teenagers feel mistreated or taken advantage of? Your (and most US parents') stance makes perfect sense in light of that. And now the arguments and premises of parts of US feminist discourse online also make a lot more sense to me. So thank you again. I wish I had known this earlier, but it seems I fell into the trap of assuming a place like the US that is in many respects so similar to my country, must automatically be similar in all respects, without bothering to check if that was true.

@Nothing if not critical (and others who have chipped in), thanks for laying out how things are here in such a calm and clear manner.

[lumpentheologie]

1 hour ago, Nothing if not critical said:

It's just not how I would handle it, and I don't think my approach is unreasonable either. To me, it all comes down to trusting my kid and teaching her to make her own decisions about her own body. She's in possession of all the information she needs, and I've given her sensible advice. At some point, I have to let her go and hope for the best. And if things go wrong, I'm there to help her. 

I think this is a great approach to parenting! Just for me, culturally, the point at which one lets go and hopes for the best would be a few years older. 

1 hour ago, Nothing if not critical said:

I'd call them sexual predators, but I wouldn't use the term pedophile, no. But that may be just me - I prefer precise definitions and I like to keep different things separate.

Interesting, I felt like sexual predators wasn't precise enough because to me that usually means adults who prey on other adults, not on minors, specially younger teens. But you are right that pedophile means prepubescent. So I don't know what to use. 

1 hour ago, Nothing if not critical said:

As for the 13 or 14 year olds - no disagreements here, but can I just note that we're on a sliding scale here regarding the age of consent we're discussing? We started out with 17/16 year olds staying the night, and then with each post it went down, and now we're suddenly at 13. For the record, I don't approve of 13-year-olds having sex. Ever. Not in their own room, not with their boyfriend of six months, not in any other situation. 

Sorry, I was referring to a completely separate comment I made in a Bates thread in response to @SeekingAdventure. Which was about 13 and 14 year olds (and not about whether it was acceptable for them to have sex). And @just_ordinary recently mentioned 14 year olds having sex as being fairly normal. So I'm not really sure what everyone thinks is an acceptable age. For me 13 and 14 year olds are never okay, 15 and 16 year olds are not good but also not the end of the world (but if they are doing it they better believe they'll be sneaking around), and 17 and 18 year olds are basically fine as long as it's with someone close in age. 

 

47 minutes ago, SeekingAdventure said:

No, I am not saying that [...] Also, in the same country, the rate of teen pregnancys is very high etc.. as I wrote above. So basically, I was actually pointing out the same point than you did, about the range between conservative and liberal. Since I am not in the US, I would not  define it the way you do, but PLEASE do not put words in my mouth.

What you said is, "What I always find very striking is the contrast the US has. There's the very conservative thought that some of you guys mention, having sex before you are 18 is scandalous etc."

I am not trying to put words in your mouth; this sentence read to me that "having sex before you are 18 is scandalous" was an example of "very conservative thought." But that seemed weird so I asked for clarification. 

1 hour ago, Nothing if not critical said:

ETA: I really appreciate that we can have a respectful and open discussion about the topic, and I do apologise if I've said anything offensive or irritating. It can be hard to express subtleties in a language other than your own and I'm doing my best to be clear and polite. Please let me know if I fail.

I appreciate it too, I think we've mostly done a good job and I apologize if I've offended anyone too. 

[Four is Enough]

I do appreciate the "safe" place to have sex, and I appreciate the education about birth control, self love, etc, but I  haven't seen anywhere that parents say to their children that sex isn't for everyone a person goes out with.

Some of my children were sexually active at an age much lower than I felt they could handle. Is it related to having been molested as children? 

Anyway, we had some very interesting "in the car" discussions about sex, especially when one of their friends was in a relationship they didn't approve of. I was inspired, one morning, to say, "You know, If I had sex with a guy I wasn't in love with, I'd wonder, every time he called me, if it was for ME or if it was for a booty call..."  One of the children got very thoughtful after that, and I did see a change in behavior.

And abuse isn't just from adults. One 14 on 14 year old relationship, my kid was being abused by the partner. I didn't find out about it until it was over. The other kid wouldn't come here, probably because I insisted that they didn't need to go to my kid's bedroom. It's a big house. But the other kid's mother didn't see anything wrong with kids that age in a bedroom alone together. There was, my kid told me later, both physical and mental abuse, from the description.

[Nothing if not critical]

2 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

I do appreciate the "safe" place to have sex, and I appreciate the education about birth control, self love, etc, but I  haven't seen anywhere that parents say to their children that sex isn't for everyone a person goes out with

You're right, I never mentioned that, because that is just a given to me. I've always told my daughters that the only reason they should have sex is because they want to and feel ready for it. Not to please their partner, not to save a relationship, not because everyone is doing it. We actually have a lot of good conversations about this, usually triggered by shows we watch together or stuff they read.

And I agree that pleasure is important, too - which is why I encourage my girls to read plenty of fanfic and to explore their own desires. It might still take a while to sort out how to have super pleasurable sex, but I feel that a positive and relaxed attitude should help. 

Does this mean I can guarantee that they'll never have a bad experience or that they'll only have sex for the right reasons? No, but I hope it helps, and at least they should be able to identify a situation going wrong. And hopefully come to me for help.

[lumpentheologie]

18 minutes ago, Alaniel said:

I had no idea it was this bad. I mean, it's not easy growing up as a woman over here, but that most teenagers feel mistreated or taken advantage of? Your (and most US parents') stance makes perfect sense in light of that. And now the arguments and premises of parts of US feminist discourse online also make a lot more sense to me. So thank you again. I wish I had known this earlier, but it seems I fell into the trap of assuming a place like the US that is in many respects so similar to my country, must automatically be similar in all respects, without bothering to check if that was true.

It's really really bad. 1 in 5 women are raped (or survived attempted rape) in the US. From 15-35 I could not walk down a street in the summer without being nearly constantly sexually harassed. I know there's misogyny in Germany too but at least to me it seems to be more about women's role as mothers and less about sexual objectification. In the US women are also really discouraged from introducing any discord or negativity into relationships, whereas in Germany it's much more socially acceptable for women to complain, or say no to men, or just not have to smile all the time.  

[lumpentheologie]

2 hours ago, Nothing if not critical said:

It can be hard to express subtleties in a language other than your own

I just want to take this moment to commend all non-native English speakers on FJ for doing such a great job discussing intelligently in a foreign language. Y'all's English is way better than my German will ever be (despite 8 years and counting of trying). 

[Nothing if not critical]

9 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

I just want to take this moment to commend all non-native English speakers on FJ for doing such a great job discussing intelligently in a foreign language. Y'all's English is way better than my German will ever be (despite 8 years and counting of trying). 

Aw, thanks ?. In all fairness, though, I think German is far more difficult to learn as a foreign language. My sincere sympathy to anyone struggling with our horribly convoluted grammar rules. I think it's great you're making an effort to learn (plus, I'm sure your German is far better than you're letting on).

[SeekingAdventure]

yeah, maybe I was a bit too touchy on the subject too, @lumpentheologie

I hope I was able to make it a bit clearer what I meant, so no misunderstandings there, and no hard feelings, obviously

And please, do not worry that much about having a harder time learning german than we do learning english. For one, German is a language that is very difficult to learn, due to grammar etc. And also, if you are able to speak, what is called 'Hochdeutsch', that's not actually whats people speak in most places. I work in Germany, but don't live there, I have roots in Switzerland & Austria, and the 'german' is very different everywhere. It varies greatly throughout Austria, and also throughout Germany, and I won't even start with Switzerland (I love switzerland, fwiw) and I know a lot of people who studied german for a long time, and then they are not in the 'right' area and they struggle and get frustrated. The dialects can really make it hard

Also, it should not be underestimated how early we start to learn english. I believe I started when I was 10, with very regular classes (3 hours a week), and some very basic even earlier on. I've always loved english, so I surround myself with the language a lot, which is easy with english, due to all the avaliable media. I think it's harder in german. There's books, magazines and everything as well, but that might not be so readily avaliable if you are not in the country, in order to prepare, and since most Europeans speak english quite well, I suppose people might offer to speak english as opposed to try to help others to improve their german.

[Austrian Atheist]

7 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

I think most Europeans don't really realize how even in most US cities public transit isn't really an option. And even in the few cities that have pretty good public transit (NYC, Chicago) kids wouldn't usually be allowed to ride it alone. 

Actually we do know this, but it's shocking for us. Maybe more shocking for us than early teenager sex for Americans

Additionally we like to walk or bike everywhere. A lot of young adults don't even get a driver license anymore.

Age of consent in my country is 14 (with some additional rules, f.e. for kids with delayed maturity). I guess usual is around 16/17 but I knew people in school who had sex with 14.

Sex ed in school is usually in the 8th school year (around 13-14) and a visit to the gyn is recommended around 16.

My mother was a conservative catholic but she also was an old mother and old-fashioned. She didn't allow my boyfriend to stay over but sometimes allowed me to stay over night at his place. We had some sort of unspoken "Don't ask don't tell." policy  That was perfectly fine for me because I wasn't that close to my mother to share my love life with her.

We actually didn't have intercourse with 16 - despite sleepovers - but did everything else. I cannot understand the focus on sleepovers anyway when you can have sex at anytime of the day and also on any other surface than an actual bed. The mother of my boyfriend was a single mom who had to work during the day... so most stuff happend during the day and on sleepovers we literally slept.

With 16 I would have felt very angry and hurt in my bodily autonomy if an adult had interfered in my sex life.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Austrian Atheist
typos

[lumpentheologie]

Thanks for the German encouragement! It's true, I started with German around 30, so it's not like learning as a kid. The grammar is bad enough that I've thrown books against the wall because I know what all the words mean individually but can't work them into a sentence. And dialects are nearly impossible---my husband's grandmother only speaks in Fränkisch so I understand maybe every other word even now. But most people are encouraging and are happy to speak nice slow, clear Hochdeutsch with me. ?

Coming to Germany and dating Germans and eventually meeting my husband here was quite an experience for me, and it's made me think a lot about similarities and differences with the US and how culturally specific a lot of things that I took for granted are. 

[SeekingAdventure]

haha, Fränkisch can be interesting. But in case that makes you feel better. I'm from Austria, German is literally my native language, and when I'm at work I usually speak very clear german, because I do not like repeating myself. Also, sometimes people who do not know me cannot immediately place me (unless they are from the same area, then they can tell..)

And I have colleagues that say: oh, I don't understand you if you use your dialect. Even though I do not use it at work, just because they don't want to do their job. So I can only imagine how hard it is if it is not your native language. Fortunatly, I have other ways to get people to do their jobs

[QuiverFullofBooks]

John Mulaney said, “Young people today are having less sex than Gen Xers did. And you know why - it’s because they’re always on their phones. It’s all about getting likes. You know how my generation got likes? We had sex with people, and they liked it!”