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Justin and Claire 2: Always the One I Forget


samurai_sarah

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Idlewild

I think the comment upthread that they may wait a little longer than most couples because there is potential for Justin to become a father aged 18 is probably pertinent. I know they have an army of humpers who always pile on and say their grandparents married at 14 and are still together 70 years later or even more hilariously that the Duggars are somehow wiser than other teenagers, but I think even the Duggars know how ridiculously young he appears.

Having said that, I think Hilary is keen to seal deal !

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Suggestions have been made elsewhere that the wedding venue was The Orchard, Azle. It looks a beautiful place for a wedding and quite a bit above the usual Duggar carpark.Wonder who officiated, a

I expect John will have flown them there. He’s a pilot apparently but doesn’t like to mention it.

Is it BEC to want to smack that fucking sign down???? He is getting his wisdom teeth out not getting fucking his Siamese twin fucking removed!!!!! Save that shit for life and death ya fucking dingbats

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GreenBeans
On 2/9/2021 at 12:03 PM, ophelia said:

I have to admit I'd love to get married only to have a registry. It's not really a thing in Germany to have a wedding registry, but I would LOVE to browse through online stores and create of list of stuff for my household so that other people can gift it to me.

Please take this whole comment with a grain of salt. Though I really love household items and feel like I can never have enough kitchen stuff 🙂 🙂

I guess it isn’t a thing here because most people who get married have lived together for ages, so they already own all the household items (possibly even two of each, because both have lived independently before, either on their own or in shared living arrangements).

The whole not having sex before marriage or only moving in together after marriage thing is really, really uncommon here.

Until I started reading here I had no idea that’s kind of mainstream or at least socially accepted in most circles in the US. It’s pretty much the opposite here - people will think it’s somewhat weird and a risk to get married without having lived together for at least a year or two. Co-ed living is absolutely the norm even in university dorms.

And it’s completely normal to have sex with your first boyfriend/girlfriend starting from the age of ~15/16/17 without any intention of getting married (yes, even as a “good girl”, and most parents are fine with that too, as long as contraception is used). If you met someone at university at the age of 19/20 or in their mid-twenties, you would always assume they have had sex before with at least a couple of previous partners.

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lumpentheologie
2 hours ago, GreenBeans said:

And it’s completely normal to have sex with your first boyfriend/girlfriend starting from the age of ~15/16/17 without any intention of getting married (yes, even as a “good girl”, and most parents are fine with that too, as long as contraception is used).

In my experience as a pretty liberal American this is by far the biggest difference in how Europeans think about sex. When I was 17 and on a family vacation I had a fling with a Dutch boy whose family was also staying at the resort. He was 16. His parents walked in on us naked once and just laughed and were like "oh, you kids," but if it had been my parents I would have been grounded for the rest of my life. It would have been about the same amount of trouble as if I had got caught driving drunk or doing hard drugs.

And there was no expectation that I would wait until marriage, but underage kids having sex was very taboo, and doing it anywhere near your parents (even insofar as them knowing about it) was very disrespectful. I even got a pretty stern talking to once when I was home from college at 19 and had my ex boyfriend (who they had known for years) spend the night. 

This was all 20 years ago so it may well be different now, but there seemed to be an American consensus that sex was harmful for an underage teen and not just morally wrong. 

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OHFL2009

We visited friends in Germany a couple years ago and their 17 year old son had his 16 year old girlfriend spend the night, in his bedroom. My husband and I thought it was a little unusual, but my parents were shocked. They couldn't imagine it happening here. At least not with the parents' blessing. My parents were totally fine with my now-husband and I moving in together more than a year before we got engaged, but I think it was the idea of it being teenagers that they found really odd. 

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Nothing if not critical

I think the prevalent line of thinking over here is that teens are going to have sex anyway (or at least experiment with it), so it's much safer if they do it in their own homes, rather than in a car or somewhere they might get caught. I'd also prefer if my daughters brought their future boyfriends to our place for safety reasons. I don't think many people would have moral objections or feel it was bad for their kids - at least not as long as it's two teens discovering sex together.

My boyfriend (now husband) and I frequently spent the night at each other's houses when we were seventeen. We were living out in the country and it wouldn't  have made much sense to drive home late at night. My mom once told me that when he stayed over for the third or fourth time, my dad suddenly realised what was going on and asked her if she thought we were "up to something" up there in my room. She replied that she would be very surprised if we weren't 😆.

I think part of it is that we don't really think of kids as teens or adolescents so much any more once they've turned 16 or 17 - it's more like almost-grown-up status. 
 

Edited by Nothing if not critical
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Angelface

In much of Europe the age of consent is sixteen whereas in the USA it is predominantly eighteen. I think that this is what contributes to the different attitude to teenage sex for the over sixteens.

Edited by Angelface
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GreenBeans
5 hours ago, OHFL2009 said:

We visited friends in Germany a couple years ago and their 17 year old son had his 16 year old girlfriend spend the night, in his bedroom. My husband and I thought it was a little unusual, but my parents were shocked. They couldn't imagine it happening here. At least not with the parents' blessing. My parents were totally fine with my now-husband and I moving in together more than a year before we got engaged, but I think it was the idea of it being teenagers that they found really odd. 

Yes, I had my first boyfriend at the age of 17, and he was allowed to spend the night in my bedroom. My parents weren’t happy with it on school nights, but that had nothing to do with sex, but rather that they thought I’d stay up late if he was there. We had sex for the first time when we had been together for about half a year, and I felt like I had waited fairly long, and I was one of the “good girls” - good grades, no partying, no alcohol, of course no drugs... but sex just wasn’t in that category, at least sex in a long-term relationship.

That was the norm with my friends, too. Most parents were fine with their kids having boyfriends/girlfriends at that age, and it’s common for German gynecologists to offer advice on contraception etc specifically to teenage girls (they can go their own, bring their mom, a friend or their boyfriend - either is fine and encouraged). My impression is most German parents feel that that’s simply the responsible thing to do - educating their kids, offering them a safe space to explore sexuality in a consensual relationship, and providing them with the resources to make sure they make the right decisions (not abstinence, but using contraception, saying no when they are not ready, choosing a partner who will respect their boundaries etc.).

Oh, and I think sex ed is compulsory, and both gynecologist appointments and contraception are covered by the public health system for underage girls and therefore free. Of course we have universal healthcare, too.

American fundies would be shocked if they came to Germany.

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lumpentheologie

I wonder if this means that sexually active teens in Germany are more likely to be in a relationship than ones in the US. If we had been able to have significant others spend the night as teens that would have really changed the hook-up calculus. 

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just_ordinary
6 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

I wonder if this means that sexually active teens in Germany are more likely to be in a relationship than ones in the US. If we had been able to have significant others spend the night as teens that would have really changed the hook-up calculus. 

From my experience, consensual sex in teenage years 14-16) almost exclusively happens in relationships. And mostly only after a couple of months. While the general attitude around it is different then the US, teenagers do not think highly of sleeping around. After your first relationship that includes sex, and when you get older the perception changes. An ONS isn’t that frowned upon anymore. And, at that age, the teenage gossip culture starts to fade out, so if you talk about it, it doesn’t get everywhere. 
German teenagers also often have more than one social hub. There is school,  elementary school, there is the neighbourhood, there are music and sports activities. The friends you make there don’t always overlap. At 16/17 German teenagers are considered. young adults in so far that they will be adults in 1-2 years. Teachers and families try to prepare them for it. Many start job training, which definitely brings another school (we have a dual system with 50% working at a job and 50% school for 3-4 years. After that you get a job certificate and are well educated in skills and knowledge. At least in theory).

Having sleepovers in your room (with closed doors) is pretty normal even for teens. Even in the same bed. Even with the opposite sex. Sex or experimenting with that would only be assumed if it’s your boyfriend/girlfriend for some time. I had at least three male friends over at 16/17. We were friends and no one assumed something would happen. Maybe I should ask my parents what they thought at the time?

What I want to add to the very good explanation about OBs. We encourage young girls to visit one from about 14 or at least when they start their period. The procedure gets modified to your situation (virgin/already menstruating). It’s like visiting your dentist. If girls decide they want contraception they can talk to their doctor and they will asses together what would be a good solution. There is no need to involve parents from I think 14? But you obviously can and many parents bring the topic up themselves. Also no pharmacist, doctor or shop (only for condoms) would withhold contraception from you. Doctors and pharmacists would get in SERIOUS trouble.

15 (girls) and 16 (boys) are the average ages for your first sex. But this honestly doesn’t tell much. It could mean many are 15/16, or many are much younger and some much older, or a few a much younger and most are a bit older. IIRC it’s the latter but I have no data at hand for it. It has gone up a bit in recent years I think.

In the end, I think most parents trust that their children will be able to make the right choice (age, partner, contraception) and everyone (doctors, teachers, parents) tries to prepare teens for those choices. If you realise your child is still very immature you will obviously talk differently to them about it.

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SorenaJ
15 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

In the end, I think most parents trust that their children will be able to make the right choice (age, partner, contraception) and everyone (doctors, teachers, parents) tries to prepare teens for those choices. If you realise your child is still very immature you will obviously talk differently to them about it.

Do you know how it would work in more Catholic regions of Germany? Would they be stricter, or just sort of accept that their teens were having sex? 

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CarrotCake
38 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

Do you know how it would work in more Catholic regions of Germany? Would they be stricter, or just sort of accept that their teens were having sex? 

I don’t know about Germany but in the Netherlands the Catholic regions would be more okay with it than the Protestant regions.

But Dutch Catholicism is more religious in tradition (cultural) than strict in rules while we do have a Protestant Bible Belt. I don’t think there are many Catholics under 70 that go to church every week.

In the Bible Belt parents would not be okay since sex before marriage is not an option there.

But for the rest of the country: if people do not have anything against sex before marriage, they also do not mind sex at 16 in a relationship.

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medimus
13 minutes ago, CarrotCake said:

I don’t know about Germany but in the Netherlands the Catholic regions would be more okay with it than the Protestant regions.

But Dutch Catholicism is more religious in tradition (cultural) than strict in rules while we do have a Protestant Bible Belt. I don’t think there are many Catholics under 70 that go to church every week.

In the Bible Belt parents would not be okay since sex before marriage is not an option there.

But for the rest of the country: if people do not have anything against sex before marriage, they also do not mind sex at 16 in a relationship.

Belgium is Catholic and very much like how Germany has been described above.  Except the gynaecologist, that role would be taken on by the GP (family doctor). I did fairly regularly get teen girls coming in with a parent (mother or father) to talk about contraception. It was completely normal. Not to say the teens weren't embarrassed, they could be, but it was normal. At school definitely the expectation was that if you had a boyfriend/girlfriend in the upper years of secondary school then you would probably be having sex with them after a few months. The expectation was that this was a long term relationship. My sister was with her first boyfriend for about a decade and I know lots of couples who got together in late secondary school and are now married.

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Jinder Roles

That would never ever fly in the Caribbean. At 24yrs my boyfriend (now ex) couldn’t spend the night in my room in my parents house. 
 

The idea of teens spending the night and it being okay with their parents is basically unheard of an extremely taboo. 

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GreenBeans
1 hour ago, SorenaJ said:

Do you know how it would work in more Catholic regions of Germany? Would they be stricter, or just sort of accept that their teens were having sex? 

(Christian) religion in Germany and how it is practiced, on average, is very much different to religion in the US. Lots of people will identify as either protestant or catholic, but for most that basically means going to church once a year for Christmas, maybe Easter. Most protestant/catholic churches are very mainstream, too, and there aren’t really many “independent” churches. What is considered “conservative” in the US would mostly be considered fundamentalist in Germany. At least from my perception, there simply isn’t much of a conflict for teenagers (or their parents) between premarital sex and religion, both catholic and protestant. 

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ophelia

I grew up in a rural area with lots of independent churches. I remember that several girls in my class vowed to stay virgins until marriage. Some of them married shortly after graduating highschool. Some of these marriages thrived and are still going, some divorced rather quickly.

So there are Christian groups that are promoting purity, but to a totally different level than the fundies we snark on. The girls I mentioned all wore regular clothes, went to university afterwards and so on.

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GreenBeans
8 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

I wonder if this means that sexually active teens in Germany are more likely to be in a relationship than ones in the US. If we had been able to have significant others spend the night as teens that would have really changed the hook-up calculus. 

Yes, from my experience, most people having sex at 15/16/17 only did that in a relationship, and that was morally and socially acceptable both for parents and within your peer group. You wouldn’t be considered “slutty” for having sex at that age in a relationship after a couple of months, that was absolutely normal. Taking some more time, waiting for “the right person” was common, too, but that would have been a matter of “I want the first time to be with someone I feel completely comfortable with” or “I don’t feel ready yet”. In contrast, “no sex before marriage” for religious reasons would have been considered outright weird, at least in my circles at the time (small town, semi-rural, middle class).

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just_ordinary
1 hour ago, SorenaJ said:

Do you know how it would work in more Catholic regions of Germany? Would they be stricter, or just sort of accept that their teens were having sex? 

RC and the Protestant Churches (EKD) aren’t very different in this if you look at the results (we have a big movement of ecumenism that is supported by both churches).  I would say it doesn’t depend so much on the region but more on the individual family. I think even the urban/rural area difference isn’t that big nowadays. Christian religion (RC + EKD) doesn’t play a big role in life decisions like that anymore. The majority of christened people are Christians on paper and ok with the cultural Christian traditions (church weddings, holidays, christenings) but most turn up at church for Christmas at most. In my (very subjective personal) experience some parents will emphasise on the no sex before marriage but with a wink because they know that’s not how things will be.
Parents really pressing in those matters (no contraception, abstinence, no sex Ed) are a minority and either from another religion or part of the maybe 5% strict Christians that believe in this.

All that said, it’s not unusual that young teens wait for more than a year for their first sex in a relationship (even if they see each other naked or have sleep overs). They might also have several relationships that don’t go further than kissing. I found the pressure of having a relationship and kissing much harder then actually having sex 20 years ago (oh dear). But there were definitely people having sex at 14.

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lumpentheologie
2 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

From my experience, consensual sex in teenage years 14-16)

It's such a cultural jolt to me that you think of teenagers as 14-16 and then 17+ as young adults.  I'd say that the core teenage years are 15-18, and before that you're not a proper teenager yet. 12-14 are pre-teens (middle school age), in my opinion. I guess there aren't really middle schools in Germany so maybe it's not seen as such a distinct age there. 16 is usually a turning point in the US because then you (and your friends) can drive. So you can finally have a social life independent of your parents, since they no longer have to take you everywhere. I think that's also when most families start talking about curfews, etc. 

I also don't think of 19-23 year olds as proper adults, it's more a kind of extended adolescence. We call them "college kids" if they're in college and most people this age aren't yet self sufficient apart from their families of origin, even if they aren't in college. Their brains are still developing and they're still learning how to function in the world. So proper adulthood starts around 24/25 in my opinion, and that's also when the brain is fully developed. Decision making, risk assessment, and empathy towards others are just really impaired when your prefrontal cortex isn't done growing yet, let alone at 16 or so. 

I think nowadays most Americans have sex for the first time around 19 or 20, and there has been less sex in high school among millennials and gen Z than there was with gen X. So most teenagers aren't "having sex anyway." Looking back as an adult I agree with mainstream American thinking that 15-16 year olds aren't really developmentally ready to have healthy sexual relationships and should try to wait until they're at least 17. And under 15s should never be having sex under any circumstances, they are just children. 

On the other hand I think we Americans could be more supportive of older teenagers safely exploring their sexuality, and make contraception, STI protection, and healthy relationship advice more available to them. In high school we were just told "don't have sex or you'll get diseases/get pregnant/become emotionally damaged" but then even if you wait you have no guidance about how to go about it when you start. 

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lumpentheologie
1 hour ago, medimus said:

Belgium is Catholic and very much like how Germany has been described above.  Except the gynaecologist, that role would be taken on by the GP (family doctor). I did fairly regularly get teen girls coming in with a parent (mother or father) to talk about contraception. It was completely normal. Not to say the teens weren't embarrassed, they could be, but it was normal.

I think in the US the recommendation is that women start visiting a gynecologist at 18 or when they start having sex, if it's before that. So of course if you're having sex before 18 this is difficult to do (and for some young people even after 18), since your parents would have to pay for it. And that assumes your family has health insurance/access to health care in the first place. In some places there are health clinics teens can use where they don't need parents/insurance/money, but not everywhere.

I literally cannot imagine going to the gynecologist with my father as a teen. Even if he had been willing I would have probably rather just taken my chances. I might have gone with my mother but it still would have been horribly awkward. I think a lot of families in the US have an unspoken agreement that as far as parents are concerned the children never have sex, just like how children usually assume/convince themselves that their parents don't have sex. Different generations openly admitting to having sex within the household is unthinkable and activates a kind of incest-avoidance disgust. 

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just_ordinary

@lumpentheologie I agree the the concepts are very different. I can never understand why I would let someone drive a car and potentially endanger others, but not trust them to be as responsible when decide to drink alcohol or make decisions about their own body. Same with voting. I wouldn’t want someone deciding on the fate of our country and future if I don’t trust them to decide on their own future.

The brain might not be fully developed till 25, but you will always have people being there earlier or later. This number is not a one for all claim. And it doesn’t say anything if it’s just the last 3% missing or maybe 76%. And why can a not fully developed person drive and vote, take on a mortgage or make a decision about their professional future but not have sex, marry or procreate?

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Nothing if not critical
46 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

So most teenagers aren't "having sex anyway." Looking back as an adult I agree with mainstream American thinking that 15-16 year olds aren't really developmentally ready to have healthy sexual relationships and should try to wait until they're at least 17.

Ah, I wasn't clear there, I'm afraid. I should have written "teens who want to have sex are going to do it anyway". 

Look, my daughter is 15 and we're getting along really well right now. I've always been very open with her about sex, and she knows what I think, namely that it would be better for her to wait at least another year or two. Still, I know my kid, and I know that once she decides she's ready, there's not a thing on Earth I can do to stop her, short of locking her up for the next three years.

Of course, with COVID and being on lockdown, the whole thing is pretty much a moot point right now anyway... But in the normal course of events - we live in a city, so you bet they have a social life independent of their parents. Even my 11-year-old is usually out and about on her own or with friends. There's no way I could or would want to police that.

And I absolutely was an adult at 19, even if I was at college. I had my own place, took care of my own finances, made important decisions for my future, and yes, I was living with my boyfriend.

Edited by Nothing if not critical
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lumpentheologie
1 hour ago, just_ordinary said:

@lumpentheologie I agree the the concepts are very different. I can never understand why I would let someone drive a car and potentially endanger others, but not trust them to be as responsible when decide to drink alcohol or make decisions about their own body. Same with voting. I wouldn’t want someone deciding on the fate of our country and future if I don’t trust them to decide on their own future.

The brain might not be fully developed till 25, but you will always have people being there earlier or later. This number is not a one for all claim. And it doesn’t say anything if it’s just the last 3% missing or maybe 76%. And why can a not fully developed person drive and vote, take on a mortgage or make a decision about their professional future but not have sex, marry or procreate?

I guess I think having sex is also potentially endangering others. You can get someone else pregnant or give them diseases (even bad ones like HIV or cervical cancer). Teenagers having sex are also much more likely to be emotionally abusive or neglectful of their partners. I'd guess that teenagers who are sexually active are in greater danger of having their consent violated than ones who aren't. And these kinds of damage seem much more common than getting in car accidents. Maybe that would be different with more social social support, but as it stands that's how it is. As far as things that are really just their own body, I believe teenagers should be able to get abortions and health care without parental consent. 

One difference between sex and driving is that in a system without public transit teenagers mostly need to be able to drive and parents need to not have to take them everywhere. So driving is really necessary (even if it is somewhat dangerous) in a way that sex isn't. 

As far as voting and making financial and professional decisions, that happens at 18, when you are legally an adult. And that's when it's socially and legally acceptable to start having sex. I personally think alcohol should be allowed then as well. I agree that not everything should wait until you're 25 but 15, 16, or 17 are all much less developed than 18. And voting and making professional and financial decisions aren't really dangerous to yourself and others the way sex is (which I think is more properly compared with driving). 

56 minutes ago, Nothing if not critical said:

Ah, I wasn't clear there, I'm afraid. I should have written "teens who want to have sex are going to do it anyway". 

Look, my daughter is 15 and we're getting along really well right now. I've always been very open with her about sex, and she knows what I think, namely that it would be better for her to wait at least another year or two. Still, I know my kid, and I know that once she decides she's ready, there's not a thing on Earth I can do to stop her, short of locking her up for the next three years.

Of course, with COVID and being on lockdown, the whole thing is pretty much a moot point right now anyway... But in the normal course of events - we live in a city, so you bet they have a social life independent of their parents. Even my 11-year-old is usually out and about on her own or with friends. There's no way I could or would want to police that.

I don't want to tell anyone to how to raise their kids. I just think the "they're going to do it anyway" argument could be used for so many things. 15 and 16 year olds are going to be able to do most things if they really want to and parents aren't going to be able to do a lot to stop it, but that doesn't mean it has to be condoned. I wouldn't condone a 15 or 16 year old having sex any more than I would condone them smoking cigarettes. 

11 year olds being out on their own or with friends is basically unheard of in the US, and in places would trigger a visit from Child Protective Services. But Germany is much, much, safer than the US. The murder rate in the US is 5 times what it is in Germany. The sexual assault rate is 25 times as high. I feel so much safer in public here than I ever did in the US.  My family back home is still kind of shocked that I go running alone without pepper spray. 

ETA: I think most Europeans don't really realize how even in most US cities public transit isn't really an option. And even in the few cities that have pretty good public transit (NYC, Chicago) kids wouldn't usually be allowed to ride it alone. 

Edited by lumpentheologie
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Nothing if not critical
28 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

11 year olds being out on their own or with friends is basically unheard of in the US, and in places would trigger a visit from Child Protective Services.

Well, I'm definitely one of the more overprotective mothers over here, so I doubt I'm in danger of being accused of neglect. But I wouldn't think twice of letting her take the bus or the underground on her own - how else would she get to school?

And once again, I don't "condone" my kid having sex at 15. But I figure, if she decides to do so, I want her to know that she can trust me and come to me for help and support if she needs it - and that includes providing a safe space, making contraception available and being there for her if things go wrong.

Edited by Nothing if not critical
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lumpentheologie
20 minutes ago, Nothing if not critical said:

Well, I'm definitely one of the more overprotective mothers over here, so I doubt I'm in danger of being accused of neglect. But I wouldn't think twice of letting her take the bus or the underground on her own - how else would she get to school?

I just want to say I don’t think any of you are neglectful parents! In case that wasn’t clear.  I think the situation in Germany is very different, and it’s reasonable to let kids take public transit here in a way it wouldn’t be in the US. 
 

In the US parents drive their kids to school or they take a special school bus just for kids. Some families take public transit together or older kids (like 14+) will ride it together in groups to go to school but that isn’t the norm. 

Edited by lumpentheologie
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mpheels

Overprotectiveness or “helicopter” parenting varies a lot in different parts of the US. I was allowed to ride my bike pretty much anywhere starting in seventh grade (early 1990s), and that was in a midsize college town in the south. Now I live in a Boston, where middle school age kids use public transit to go to and from school on their own. Same in Baltimore, where I used to live. I think some small town and suburban parents in the US would be shocked by the level of independence that kids in US cities have.

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