Alyssa and John 7: Laura Ingalls, Something, Something...

[raayx01]

2 hours ago, catlady said:

Um, ok, sure......

I agree with @AussieKrissy that Alyssa really just wanted to dress up fancy.  No problem there, but I would never have guessed that photo was from Halloween.

everywhere I’ve lived, it’s been a mix on whether parents dress up with their kids.    There have been family themes, parents who throw something together with what they have on hand, parents of very young kids who are getting the kids into the spirit, parents who just plain like Halloween and want to dress up.  It all in good fun, so I say go for it.

I had a co-worker whose daughter was about 10 when she declared that she wanted her and her dad to be Belle and Beast.  She made this announcement around Christmas, so with all the lead time, they planned big.  They saved up and rented high-end costumes that probably rivaled actual Disney actors and took dozens of pictures.  Daughter and Dad looked great and had a wonderful time that year.

I would have believed her more if she said they were inspired by the 20's. id she even look up pictures of what the royal family wears.

[freethemall]

12 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Alyssa said it was inspired in British Royalty. I personally found the dresses very unfortunate.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B4TPVUhlzmA/?igshid=1oidslvcy89mk

"Modern royalty" it was clear they decided to do it at the last second and just pulled out some matching dresses and thought of a theme to match

[SeekingAdventure]

FWIW, about 10 years ago, I was an au-pair in canada. I came there in early september, and when Halloween approached, the little guy (he was 6 then) got really excited about costumes etc ,and my hostfamily started talking about costumes, decoration etc.. I figured, i might as well get into the whole thing, and we ended up doing a whole thing. My host mum once jokingly asked if I would want to hide in a coffin and scare kids, and we actually ended up building a coffin out of wood, paint it, they carved pumpkins and the whole thing, and it was such a fun night. It also really helped me bond with the kid, too, and since it was something everybody was doing and it was a tradition there, I really enjoyed being a part of it.

 

Back at home, I do not celebrate Halloween at all, and especially 10 years ago, it was only one neighbors kids, who would literally turn away if you greet them on the street, but then come begging for candy on Halloween, and complaining to their parents when you didn't have any. (and then the parents came by and complained why we didn't give the poor kids candy?!)

It wasn't because these kids were brats (maybe a little bit, they broke our bathroom window, never even apologized, damaged my brothers motorbike and as I mentionned, never even greet us on the street but instead turn away) but because simply it is not something we have ever done or anyone else is doing..

 

So now, I happily went back to not really celebrating halloween, but I probably would participate in parties or something, if I would live in an area where it is a thing.

[Audrey2]

When I lived in the Southwest, I taught at en elementary school. Halloween was a big deal at my school, and the teachers were expected to dress. Because of time, I went to school in my costume, then wore it to hand out candy. One year, I was a winter visitor. Most years, I was either Rosie the Riveter or a mother of a certain age. I don't wear scary costumes. Now that I'm back in an elementary school, I wore my dirndl that I picked up at a local Oktoberfest. My family's heritage is  very German and Swiss, so I felt okay wearing it. (If I didn't have the heritage to support it, I wouldn't have bought it or worn it.)

[Audrey2]

To clarify, a mother of a certain age meant my hair was up in pink sponge rollers, I had one of those short sleeve cotton bathrobes with the snaps up the front, and I wore knee-high nylons and bedroom slippers. To walk around the school I carried my coffee cup. the kids thought it was kind of funny but I had more than one parent say that I looked like their mother!

[Zebedee]

11 hours ago, Audrey2 said:

Now that I'm back in an elementary school, I wore my dirndl that I picked up at a local Oktoberfest. My family's heritage is  very German and Swiss, so I felt okay wearing it. (If I didn't have the heritage to support it, I wouldn't have bought it or worn it.)

This is only my English/Polish European opinion, and YMMV:

Obviously, I can't speak for all Bavarians, but I don't think they'd mind if you didn't have very German/Swiss heritage, either. Bavaria is full of people with no German background wearing Tracht when they are here, often of a style that, erm, doesn't reflect how the Tracht is really worn! Of course, plenty of (Southern) Germans wear it like that too. And also, it is not the national dress of Germany, plenty of Northern Germans walk around wearing it (wrongly - stripy socks, stockings & stilettos etc). 

When I was in India, I bought and wore salwar kameez and kurtis the whole time - from small stores, individuals, and markets, and didn't wear anything that has religious or cultural significance. They are just beautiful well made clothes, that are very suitable for the climate. I mainly just wore the kurti with jeans back in the UK, and here in Germany. I don't think (hope) anyone has felt offended by it. I'm not buying them cheap  as throwaway fashion, or culturally inappropriate "inspired by" stretchy revealing tops. If someone had told me it was offensive, I would have very sadly wrapped them up until my next India trip, of course.

 So, as an example: kurti are loose, fairly long, cotton, everyday types of clothes, made to last, worn with trousers, generally, not leopard print cut-out shoulders/backs, clingy short things worn as mini-dresses, or meant to be sexy and revealing made in a sweatshop somewhere and designed as one season fashion items. That would be offensive, especially when posed with henna tattoos, wedding jewelry, bindis, etc.

With Bavarian Tracht, of course the actual clothes have local specifics, e.g. what feather/chamois the men wear in their hats; the embroidery on the leather, aprons, braces etc is often unique, having been done by the women of the family for their loved ones, and often handed down generations, reflecting what the man's job was and so on. Most Bavarians don't actually have this stuff, unless they are very lucky or in a historical dress society. They also buy the same Tracht as us newcomers here, but they do recognise the significance of certain things much more than we do. We learn basic stuff, like how to tie the apron to signify your relationship status, but only on special occasions do you get to see the special features (they usually wear "civvy Tracht" to beer festivals, when they bring the cows up/down to the Alm, and make flower crowns for them, etc etc). No one is particularly bothered by who is wearing traditional dress, normally. Now, turning up in a fetishized version for a special event like  a wedding, anything religious, would be frowned upon.

Argh, now I wish I hadn't started this reply, as it is all so complicated, and I'm trying to be brief. But I don't think having the "right" ancestry has much to do with whether it is appropriate or not. Also, I do think that there is a huge difference in whose culture you are borrowing/incorporating. It seems (only my opinion, YMMV) that borrowing white European stuff, like Tracht, is less problematic. Or, indeed, e.g. Indian men wearing English-style suits not at all problematic. The US, for example, has tons of originally European settlers, so in a sense, it is your heritage as a nation. There is not so much in the way of religious symbolism that can be appropriated, since we share so much of it.  However, taking the heritage of Native or African Americans is very different - not just for reasons of oppression, and profiting off their cultures while discriminating against them, though obviously that is a major part of it. But also because of the sacred symbolism that is used like something cool and/or amusing.

When I see fashion shoots with European models wearing sexed-up sari-inspired clothes, presented as a "new concept" by some designer, complete with henna tattoos, wedding bangles, etc etc, I feel mad: it is not just the rip-off as ideas, without any credit given to those who design/ed saris in Indian culture, or the misappropriation of religious symbolism, it is also the fact that the culture being ripped off is one that we have discriminated against, stereotyped and exploited. I don't feel that when I see the ridiculous caricatures of English, German etc, or other cultures wearing "our" stuff. We have not suffered for our culture or been exploited. Dressing up like this to poke fun is also not acceptable outside the group.

A minor example: I was at Catholic school, run by the then IBVM (now CJ, for any Catholics). So, at a 6th form revue, a group of girls dressed up as old-school IBVM nuns, and did IBVM to the tune of "YMCA" with different words. They got the cast off habits from the older nuns, it was fine, the nuns thought it was hilarious. If, say, a Gothard-type group who listened to pop music, but also thought Catholics were evil and needed to be ministered to, did it, that would be massively offensive to many people, including my Atheist, non-Catholic self.

(Actually, I'd be pissed off if the Websters or any IBLP types wore dirndls, Polish national dress,  actually, but that is literally only because I know who they are. Bavarians & Poles are Catholics, the Websters hate Catholics, and Alyssa is as vapid as they come, and would just wear them because they are pretty. But that's what happens when you broadcast your shallowness, ignorance and hatred to the world...)

TL;DR Wear your dirndl whenever you like, and don't worry about your immediate German/Swiss heritage. (Well, unless you do it to depict "A Typical Nazi", but I don't think you'd do that! Besides, the typical Nazi outfit  has moved on, and is a bit simpler now...) 

 

[llucie]

I prefer them not to celebrate Halloween that to be such hypocrites to act like Halloween is so bad when others do it but not when they do, because their intentions are so much better and so much hollier because they will be preaching to their neighbours.

[artdecades]

Their justification is so funny. They dress up and trick or treat because it’s fun. It’s ok to enjoy things, you don’t need a biblical justification. 

[Johannah]

9 hours ago, artdecades said:

Their justification is so funny. They dress up and trick or treat because it’s fun. It’s ok to enjoy things, you don’t need a biblical justification. 

I think the justification is solely for their families. I know several mainstream conservative Christians who think celebrating Halloween is taboo and would be appalling. I think maybe the only way the Websters don’t get serious judgment and reprimands from their families is to frame it as “ministering.”
 

It’s a lot of very sad rationalizing gymnastics to be able to have your 5 year old dress up as Elsa and get some Skittles without fear of familial rejection. Now if only they can figure out how to turn public school attendance into a ministry...

[raayx01]

It's not like they live out like the Duggar's or Bates on a big plot of land with no neighbors in site. Her girls are old enough to see all the other kids outside in costumes and getting candy and to any kid, religious or not that sound fun and they want candy. So I could see how it would be hard for them to say no. 

[just_ordinary]

21 hours ago, Zebedee said:

This is only my English/Polish European opinion, and YMMV:

Obviously, I can't speak for all Bavarians, but I don't think they'd mind if you didn't have very German/Swiss heritage, either. Bavaria is full of people with no German background wearing Tracht when they are here, often of a style that, erm, doesn't reflect how the Tracht is really worn! Of course, plenty of (Southern) Germans wear it like that too. And also, it is not the national dress of Germany, plenty of Northern Germans walk around wearing it (wrongly - stripy socks, stockings & stilettos etc). 

When I was in India, I bought and wore salwar kameez and kurtis the whole time - from small stores, individuals, and markets, and didn't wear anything that has religious or cultural significance. They are just beautiful well made clothes, that are very suitable for the climate. I mainly just wore the kurti with jeans back in the UK, and here in Germany. I don't think (hope) anyone has felt offended by it. I'm not buying them cheap  as throwaway fashion, or culturally inappropriate "inspired by" stretchy revealing tops. If someone had told me it was offensive, I would have very sadly wrapped them up until my next India trip, of course.

 So, as an example: kurti are loose, fairly long, cotton, everyday types of clothes, made to last, worn with trousers, generally, not leopard print cut-out shoulders/backs, clingy short things worn as mini-dresses, or meant to be sexy and revealing made in a sweatshop somewhere and designed as one season fashion items. That would be offensive, especially when posed with henna tattoos, wedding jewelry, bindis, etc.

With Bavarian Tracht, of course the actual clothes have local specifics, e.g. what feather/chamois the men wear in their hats; the embroidery on the leather, aprons, braces etc is often unique, having been done by the women of the family for their loved ones, and often handed down generations, reflecting what the man's job was and so on. Most Bavarians don't actually have this stuff, unless they are very lucky or in a historical dress society. They also buy the same Tracht as us newcomers here, but they do recognise the significance of certain things much more than we do. We learn basic stuff, like how to tie the apron to signify your relationship status, but only on special occasions do you get to see the special features (they usually wear "civvy Tracht" to beer festivals, when they bring the cows up/down to the Alm, and make flower crowns for them, etc etc). No one is particularly bothered by who is wearing traditional dress, normally. Now, turning up in a fetishized version for a special event like  a wedding, anything religious, would be frowned upon.

Argh, now I wish I hadn't started this reply, as it is all so complicated, and I'm trying to be brief. But I don't think having the "right" ancestry has much to do with whether it is appropriate or not. Also, I do think that there is a huge difference in whose culture you are borrowing/incorporating. It seems (only my opinion, YMMV) that borrowing white European stuff, like Tracht, is less problematic. Or, indeed, e.g. Indian men wearing English-style suits not at all problematic. The US, for example, has tons of originally European settlers, so in a sense, it is your heritage as a nation. There is not so much in the way of religious symbolism that can be appropriated, since we share so much of it.  However, taking the heritage of Native or African Americans is very different - not just for reasons of oppression, and profiting off their cultures while discriminating against them, though obviously that is a major part of it. But also because of the sacred symbolism that is used like something cool and/or amusing.

When I see fashion shoots with European models wearing sexed-up sari-inspired clothes, presented as a "new concept" by some designer, complete with henna tattoos, wedding bangles, etc etc, I feel mad: it is not just the rip-off as ideas, without any credit given to those who design/ed saris in Indian culture, or the misappropriation of religious symbolism, it is also the fact that the culture being ripped off is one that we have discriminated against, stereotyped and exploited. I don't feel that when I see the ridiculous caricatures of English, German etc, or other cultures wearing "our" stuff. We have not suffered for our culture or been exploited. Dressing up like this to poke fun is also not acceptable outside the group.

A minor example: I was at Catholic school, run by the then IBVM (now CJ, for any Catholics). So, at a 6th form revue, a group of girls dressed up as old-school IBVM nuns, and did IBVM to the tune of "YMCA" with different words. They got the cast off habits from the older nuns, it was fine, the nuns thought it was hilarious. If, say, a Gothard-type group who listened to pop music, but also thought Catholics were evil and needed to be ministered to, did it, that would be massively offensive to many people, including my Atheist, non-Catholic self.

(Actually, I'd be pissed off if the Websters or any IBLP types wore dirndls, Polish national dress,  actually, but that is literally only because I know who they are. Bavarians & Poles are Catholics, the Websters hate Catholics, and Alyssa is as vapid as they come, and would just wear them because they are pretty. But that's what happens when you broadcast your shallowness, ignorance and hatred to the world...)

TL;DR Wear your dirndl whenever you like, and don't worry about your immediate German/Swiss heritage. (Well, unless you do it to depict "A Typical Nazi", but I don't think you'd do that! Besides, the typical Nazi outfit  has moved on, and is a bit simpler now...) 

 

I would like to add, that there are people there feel offended that their traditional clothes are used as „cute dress up“. Not all, but the whole Oktoberfest perversion and tasteless sexy Dirndls (so so wrong from the original) costumes are not really popular with many Bavarians. That being said, they will bitch about you behind your back but won’t confront you about it openly. It’s not the daily wear anymore (and hasn’t for a long time). Nevertheless, many still bring them out for special occasions (weddings or christenings) and they have no problem if you join in as long as you do it respectfully and in proper attire (just as you wouldn’t turn up in the sexy sari).
But it’s not a big deal if you look at the big picture. And as long as no one tells you, you offended them personally, no one will care.

[Zebedee]

11 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

Not all, but the whole Oktoberfest perversion and tasteless sexy Dirndls (so so wrong from the original) costumes are not really popular with many Bavarians.

Indeed, I do see a few younger Bavarians wearing it occasionally, but only on the biggest nights in the larger tents. We usually go to the "Old Oktoberfest" when it is on, much more beautiful costumes, and much friendlier. They also teach you how to make flower garlands for the cows
It really is about the way you wear the clothes. Which sounds so wishy-washy, but is also somehow so obvious!

I have a basic dirndl, my "in-laws" had to fight me to get me to wear it to a local Tracht/beer fest. You couldn't get me out of the thing for beer fests etc now (except I got too fat for it!).  Incentive to losing weight (apart from all the beautiful clothes I have waiting for me) is to get a really good dirndl. Not for Oktoberfest - that needs to be washable! - and I have my eye on exactly the type I want. It won't be anyone's local Tracht, but it will be wedding/fest suitable. I've even seen women wearing these "black-tie type" dirndls to opera premieres, Bayreuth etc. I'll certainly stand out less at weddings and fests with it than I do right now in my standard clothes

[Melissa1977]

I love Bavarian dresses but I would feel so foreigner wearing them. In fact, I love Sevilla typical dresses, but I wouldn't be able to wear them, because even in the same country there are regional differences and my family heritage has no connection with Sevilla, so I don't feel I have the "right" to wear them. I suppose it's the same for an Englishman who likes Scottish kilts... No way!

[indianabones]

5 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I suppose it's the same for an Englishman who likes Scottish kilts... No way!

Not really related to cultural appropriation, but I was in Edinburgh last year and got bored one night so I went on Tinder. Every single guy on there had at least one photo of himself in a kilt- it was hilarious how many there were!

[Melissa1977]

10 hours ago, indianabones said:

Not really related to cultural appropriation, but I was in Edinburgh last year and got bored one night so I went on Tinder. Every single guy on there had at least one photo of himself in a kilt- it was hilarious how many there were!

They think it looks sexy for tourist girls haha.

[just_ordinary]

On 11/13/2020 at 12:40 PM, Zebedee said:

Indeed, I do see a few younger Bavarians wearing it occasionally, but only on the biggest nights in the larger tents. We usually go to the "Old Oktoberfest" when it is on, much more beautiful costumes, and much friendlier. They also teach you how to make flower garlands for the cows
It really is about the way you wear the clothes. Which sounds so wishy-washy, but is also somehow so obvious!

I have a basic dirndl, my "in-laws" had to fight me to get me to wear it to a local Tracht/beer fest. You couldn't get me out of the thing for beer fests etc now (except I got too fat for it!).  Incentive to losing weight (apart from all the beautiful clothes I have waiting for me) is to get a really good dirndl. Not for Oktoberfest - that needs to be washable! - and I have my eye on exactly the type I want. It won't be anyone's local Tracht, but it will be wedding/fest suitable. I've even seen women wearing these "black-tie type" dirndls to opera premieres, Bayreuth etc. I'll certainly stand out less at weddings and fests with it than I do right now in my standard clothes

Don’t beat yourself up over your weight. The more traditional cut ones look lovely on fuller figures. 
I find cultural appropriation a complicated topic- if you talk about private people. Obviously, there is a line with religious significant clothes, but if you don’t know someone  you just never know if someone is appropriating or well within their rights. Lots of young Indian girls have taken a very modern twist on their traditional clothing for example, and not everyone looks like the stereotype of a cultural, religious or ethnic group. And the focus is very different, depending on where you are.
I can only talk about that from a white European perspective. White culture is not just one standard, just as I suppose there a big differences in the Black or Indigenous (not just NA but worldwide) communities. Many regional dresses are also symbols or reminder for cultural clashes, traditions, history, religion and so on. Wearing certain items can identify your heritage or convictions (religious, political or otherwise) and there has been suppression of those through and for centuries. Wearing those  traditional clothes respectfully is fair game but one should really check their motives. Many Europeans have actually a very mixed heritage. So the odd Italien great grandmother or having moved to a different country in the last 150 years (changing borders also mixed up the homogeneity of all countries). I don’t think some distant relative is enough to claim traditional clothes for you- unless you really connect to the culture to a certain extent: food, history (past and present), maybe language, traditions...  I wouldn’t dare to wear Romanian traditional costumes, even though my grandfather was originally from there. There is just no connection and I feel I would need to put some effort into it to earn my right to wear it. And I am not sure even that would be enough.

But, we all have a hill to die on I guess. Everyone is free to feel different or just not care. As long as the clothing is not to mock or ridicule there are certainly more important topics. - again talking from a European perspective. Other communities feel differently and have pointed it out. If you are truly interested in the culture you should be well aware and refrain.

Edited November 14, 2020 by just_ordinary

[Jackie3]

On 11/11/2020 at 1:45 AM, Melissa1977 said:

Probably Alyssa picked it herself, but I'm sure the girls were excited about Frozen. But, as you said, the problem is that they cannot be a skeleton, a football player or an astronaut. Their choices are narrow, and that's sad. But at least... they have more fun than Maxwells.

I have a feeling that Allie also wanted to be Elsa or Anna along with her sisters. It seems very strange that she'd choose to be Olaf, when her sisters get to be princesses. I have a feeling that Alyssa felt two Elsas would be too unbalanced, and wanted everything to be "just right." So Allie, the oldest and presumably least likely to tantrum, "agreed" to be the snowman. I suspect she'd prefer the fancy, shiny dress. Alyssa doesn't seem to be the type to say to the neighbors, "Yes, they both wanted to be Elsa, so we let them."

[Vivi_music]

@just_ordinary It is an interesting discussion. I also have a hard time having an opinion on the subject because it can be tricky. I appreciate you giving us the European perspective.

Personnally, from a North American POV, my view of cultural appropriation is very much imbeded within the context of colonization in the American continent. Costumes and traditional dress from minority groups and oppressed groups is where cultural appropriation is wrong in my eyes. North America (I include Canada and the US here) has a history of trying to created a ''very white'' continent. BIPOC (Blakc, Indienous, People of Color) cultures have been purposely shoved aside, muted down and not welcomed.

That is why it really irks me when I hear ''But you are doing cultural appropriation from white people when you do this and that''. My answer is always: but we, white folks aren't the oppressed group. Our culture as white people has been dominant for centuries. So stop it.

A great example that comes to mind are indigenous garbs (headdresses, hearings, necklaces, etc.) Most people who wear them, even for Instagram and festivals, probably don't mean anything and I'm sure find these cultures pretty cool and interesting. But considerng for example that in Canada, for more than a century, we had residential schools where the sole purpose was ''to kill the Indian within the child'', yeah I understand why indigenous people are pissed to see a dude jamming with a headdress at a festival. There was a deliberate effort to kill their culture, and now people are using their sacred garbs to party around? I'd be mad as well.

[raayx01]

2 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

I have a feeling that Allie also wanted to be Elsa or Anna along with her sisters. It seems very strange that she'd choose to be Olaf, when her sisters get to be princesses. I have a feeling that Alyssa felt two Elsas would be too unbalanced, and wanted everything to be "just right." So Allie, the oldest and presumably least likely to tantrum, "agreed" to be the snowman. I suspect she'd prefer the fancy, shiny dress. Alyssa doesn't seem to be the type to say to the neighbors, "Yes, they both wanted to be Elsa, so we let them."

you don't have to do a family costume, each girl being a different princess, but with their obsession with frozen they all partly wanted to be Ana or Elsa. I wished they would go back to the classics like there little mermaid or Belle instead of the crap that is Frozen. But going back to not doing family costumes I think that Alyssa really only does Halloween because it's another day for her to have an excuse to have all her girls matching with her. 

[Melissa1977]

4 hours ago, raayx01 said:

you don't have to do a family costume, each girl being a different princess, but with their obsession with frozen they all partly wanted to be Ana or Elsa. I wished they would go back to the classics like there little mermaid or Belle instead of the crap that is Frozen. But going back to not doing family costumes I think that Alyssa really only does Halloween because it's another day for her to have an excuse to have all her girls matching with her. 

 Frozen 1 and 2 are very beautiful films with strong female characters. 

Little Mermaid agree to lose her voice to get a man. Belle is a abused by a men yet falls in love with him. No thank you, I prefer girls to watch Frozen!

[freethemall]

13 hours ago, raayx01 said:

you don't have to do a family costume, each girl being a different princess, but with their obsession with frozen they all partly wanted to be Ana or Elsa. I wished they would go back to the classics like there little mermaid or Belle instead of the crap that is Frozen. But going back to not doing family costumes I think that Alyssa really only does Halloween because it's another day for her to have an excuse to have all her girls matching with her. 

Frozen is  very popular for a reason and at this point a classic. The movies are amazingly done and feature strong female characters. I imagine if you're saying "crap" you havent seen them. I think a lot of the modern princesses, including Moana and Brave/Merida are so much better than the misogynistic crap of "classic" Disney princess movies.

8 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

 Frozen 1 and 2 are very beautiful films with strong female characters. 

Little Mermaid agree to lose her voice to get a man. Belle is a abused by a men yet falls in love with him. No thank you, I prefer girls to watch Frozen!

You just made me realize that the awful Polish Netflix movie "365 Days" is a live action version of Beauty and the Beast but with 5000x more raunchy sex. Anyone watch that awful crap? I'm unashamed to say I both hated it and rewatched the sex scenes several times.

[Maggie Mae]

13 hours ago, raayx01 said:

 I wished they would go back to the classics like there little mermaid or Belle instead of the crap that is Frozen. 

Frozen has Idina Menzel, so not crap.  I miss the old school animation style more than the rather problematic storylines of the so-called "classic" Disney Animated Feature Films. And I don't even think that Beauty and the Beast or Little Mermaid are really "classic" - they were part of the "Disney Renaissance" period. 

[Maggie Mae]

5 hours ago, freethemall said:

 I think a lot of the modern princesses, including Moana and Brave/Merida are so much better than the misogynistic crap of "classic" Disney princess movies.

Moana is the BEST. 

• I knew more than one person who was like "that Disney princess looks like me!" (And they weren't just kids.) 
• No dead parents!
• Excellent music that's in a range for most girls to sing along and not screech out the high notes. 
• No love interest. Just a girl fulfilling a hero's journey for her family and people. 

[Lgirlrocks]

1 hour ago, Maggie Mae said:

Moana is the BEST. 

• I knew more than one person who was like "that Disney princess looks like me!" (And they weren't just kids.) 
• No dead parents!
• Excellent music that's in a range for most girls to sing along and not screech out the high notes. 
• No love interest. Just a girl fulfilling a hero's journey for her family and people. 

Also has great songs and a wonderful storyline. She has a long for her people and family. Princess and the frog is another great one. Music is amazing. Of course fundies wouldn’t watch it because of voodoo magic and Tiana doesn’t want a man. 

[raayx01]

Get beyond the plot of the movie, the older films have deeper hidden meanings unlike the crap that if Frozen. You can still be strong and be in a relationship, for instance Belle went off on her own and saw true good in a person even though they looked like a monster. It teaches you to not judge a book by its cover. Cinderella is a rag to riches story that says your dreams can still come true no matter where you start out from, who cares if it was by marriage is not a bad thing to want rot find love. Sleeping beauty is more of a nod to parents to show them that shunning your kid from all evil and overprotecting them can lead them into becoming a forever child. Frozen and Moana only have base meaning (no in depth) and we only made that way to please a certain political party. Do you actually think Disney gives a rats ass about empowering young girls. They want money. But if you want a good classic with a strong female lead than Brave was the last good one. Frozen is over played and over sung as well as Moana. And why can't we stop focusing on looks I get that it might be nice to have a black or minority lead character for once since most of the princesses were white But girls should being seeing their personality and character and relate not just always by looks.