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A Question For Any Quiverful Followers Who Lurk Here


debrand

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Some of the shit that happens is God's will, and other shit that happens is not God's will.

3. Just coincidentally, the shit that I want to happen*, happens because of God's will. How convenient

That's not an intellectually honest assessment of what I've said. I did a lot to explain why Christians consider God to be the author of life and not death and why they believe that disease is not God's will, but rather the result of the fall. There is a pretty large line between life and death, and it isn't arbitrary, as it is specifically based on what God has told us about Himself.

And no, Christians do not celebrate another person's suffering.

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Children are nice and all (it's my baby's first birthday today!!!) but giving birth to them is a medical issue that women enter at some peril and with much self-sacrifice, certainly much more physically draining than an ear infection.

If you believe that God is omnipotent, then disease does, at some point, spring from Him, however indirectly.

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That's not an intellectually honest assessment of what I've said. I did a lot to explain why Christians consider God to be the author of life and not death and why they believe that disease is not God's will, but rather the result of the fall. There is a pretty large line between life and death, and it isn't arbitrary, as it is specifically based on what God has told us about Himself.

And no, Christians do not celebrate another person's suffering.

Maybe good Christians don't celebrate others' sufferings but most of us can give examples of Christians taking glee in others hardships. :(

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Children are nice and all (it's my baby's first birthday today!!!) but giving birth to them is a medical issue that women enter at some peril and with much self-sacrifice, certainly much more physically draining than an ear infection.

If you believe that God is omnipotent, then disease does, at some point, spring from Him, however indirectly.

I don't think its indirect at all. If god created everything, then he created bacteria, viruses, fungi, prions, DNA repair enzymes that are fallible ect. God created disease, and he created it for a reason.

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If you believe that God is omnipotent, then disease does, at some point, spring from Him, however indirectly.

Well that goes back to the entire issue of the Fall of Man. I'm just trying to show the very basic ideological assumptions at work.

Edit to add: And the question of "why does God allow disease" pulls up about 3 million hits on Google. It's a bigger issue than I'm capable of tackling, especially since I'm not even a very good Christian. Haven't been to church in years. But honestly, it doesn't really matter for the debate. What is important is what the person making the argument believes to be true, and if he is internally consistent with those beliefs. If he is, and he can back up his assumptions with the source documents, the logic is sound, which was my point oh so many pages ago.

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Twin2, I happen to believe that also, but I am not 100% on God being omnipotent. So I was thinking with my Calvinist brain. :)

Bacteria are amazing, and DNA synthesis/transcription/etc? Wowza. I don't understand how or why these things exist, but I am so interested in them. I don't necessarily believe that God loves humans more than the kitties or the paramecia, either. I think there are a lot of things going on in this world, and that one has a right to make decisions in their own favor where no one else is harmed, including birth control.

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Well that goes back to the entire issue of the Fall of Man. I'm just trying to show the very basic ideological assumptions at work.

Edit to add: And the question of "why does God allow disease" pulls up about 3 million hits on Google. It's a bigger issue than I'm capable of tackling, especially since I'm not even a very good Christian. Haven't been to church in years. But honestly, it doesn't really matter for the debate. What is important is what the person making the argument believes to be true, and if he is internally consistent with those beliefs. If he is, and he can back up his assumptions with the source documents, the logic is sound, which was my point oh so many pages ago.

So, I'd have to defeat the concept of the fall to convince a woman not to have so many children that she harms herself or her children? That is depressing

I remember when I was a Christian, I used to read on line discussions by more moderate Christians trying to convince extremists to be a bit less crazy. That never worked and usually devolved into each side trying to interpret bible verses.

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So, I'd have to defeat the concept of the fall to convince a woman not to have so many children that she harms herself or her children? That is depressing

No, just the concept that God is actively involved in each and every pregnancy. While there is some support to this "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you..." I think that there is probably equal support for the idea that God created us in such a way as to support reproduction, but the individual choices about how it happens are up to us.

Now, that won't make a QF prochoice, because even if you don't believe that God specifically ordained the pregnancy, you probably still believe that the child has a soul, but I think that it would be enough for someone to embrace non-abortificient birth control measures.

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Well, this conversation has pretty much run its course, but if anyone wants to continue I just wanted to let you know that I'm gonig to be away from the computer for a bit. Time to go watch the Rangers and try not to die of blood loss. Fun fun fun.

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Well, this conversation has pretty much run its course, but if anyone wants to continue I just wanted to let you know that I'm gonig to be away from the computer for a bit. Time to go watch the Rangers and try not to die of blood loss. Fun fun fun.

I was going to ask how you would defeat quiverful logic but if you'd rather have a life than write on this forum...

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That's not an intellectually honest assessment of what I've said. I did a lot to explain why Christians consider God to be the author of life and not death and why they believe that disease is not God's will, but rather the result of the fall. There is a pretty large line between life and death, and it isn't arbitrary, as it is specifically based on what God has told us about Himself.

And no, Christians do not celebrate another person's suffering.

Just in case anyone still cares: I phrased that badly. I said "most evangelicals are quite happy to say that if someone they don't like gets ill, it is God's judgement". I should have said "are quite willing to accept" or "quite willing to believe, announce, proclaim." There are plenty of christians who will say that a specific instance of disease, disaster, or death was willed by god as a punishment. And yes, there are some who sound like they are positively rejoicing - when it happens to people they don't like.

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Haha, well I came into the office to check my email, so I guess I'll respond real quick while I'm here. (Ahh you guys are dragging me in!)

I would explain that there original assumption is flawed and point to scripture to point that out.

If the assumption is not that God has ordained every specific pregnancy, then his will is not being challanged by using contraception, or perhaps more specifically NFP.

I think the NFP point is easier to make than contraception in general because you are only using your body in the way that God designed it, but I think that an equally strong argument could be made for sterilization and other types of birth control if the goal is to protect your own health and not specifically to result in contraception.

Thats the really short version, but the game just started!

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Even if the mindset behind QF was all sound logic, it still doesn't make it any less selfish and crappy parenting. If children are blessings then treat them like that their whole childhoods, not like objects that can be tossed aside when a new baby arrives. And yes, when people say that they will keep having babies that they know they cannot supply for or really parent (just a clue, if you have to have older kids help raise the younger ones, you aren't parenting), they show that they are willing to toss their existing children aside for new ones.

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I can't stand the "God will provide" or the "we're letting God decide".

"God provides" much better in stable societies with socialist support. I wonder why that is?

If "God will provide" turns out like abba12's idea, then it's even more obvious than socialist government and the rest of society picking up the slack in a man-made system. It's your parents picking up the slack. "Your parents will provide".

You can say that's God's way of providing, but I think it's dishonest to be pointing to that indirect thing rather than acknowledging that there are safety nets for if too many kids pushes you to the limit, and they're actually the same for non-qfs and non-Christians in your society, too.

"We're letting God decide": If you've had one kid per three years for the past nine years, there's a chance that pattern will continue until average menopause age. If you don't use contraception, you are TTC and CHOOSING to have a kid just as much as any non-quiverful couple. Unless you can show me that there is a practice, other than sex without contraception, commonly used by fertile heterosexual couples to have children, there is no difference between their CHOICE to have another child and your ALLOWANCE to have another child.

Again, I realise the language is partly to reflect worldview, and so "letting God decide" shows where you think the power really lies, but some qfs insist they're not choosing to have another child. Yes, you are. You bloody well are. It's the same method and practice as non-qfs and non-Christians trying to have another baby, CHOOSING to have another baby, taking full responsibility (well, hopefully) for that child and the effect it has on the rest of your family and not passing the buck ('LOL, our kids sleep on shelving! LAWL, our daughter is a full-time parent, GOD'S WILL! Our twelve-year-old feels constantly stressed and disgusted because she lives in a tiny hovel and has no time to herself!') when you fuck up.

Short version: It's possible you won't get pregnant again, but it's also possible the non-qf fertile het couple won't get pregnant again. No. Difference. In methods. The only difference I can think of for the fertile het couple who are "choosing" to have another baby, is that they might GO OFF contraception or chart cycles. But Michelle does the same calendar thing, and still uses the qf terms.

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I can't stand the "God will provide" or the "we're letting God decide".

Why doesn't God provide for the 40,000 children that die everyday from starvation & preventable disease. I know this is an unaswerable question, but when the fundies crow that God will provide, I'm just repulsed by that version of God. Do you have to be a white American for God to provide (not that some what American children aren't hungry)?

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there is no difference between their CHOICE to have another child and your ALLOWANCE to have another child.

Well, some women can't get pregnant without actually doing a lot of work TTC. QF means not only no IVF,IUI,Clomid ect. It also means no OPK's or charting.

Like for me personally, I was still nursing the last two times I got pregnant. I wasn't doing anything to prevent pregnancy, but I also wasn't doing anything to speed along that process such as early weaning.

Edit to add that my nursing babies were both around 14 months old when I got pregnant again while still nursing.

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I hope Vera addresses my questions about all the children born who are not white, speshul snowflake, American babies. Are they blessings, too? If so, why does God allow them to suffer so much and die so soon?

Not Vera, but I'd say my husband is a blessing. :)

He suffered. Somehow managed to survive. If you asked him why God allowed him to suffer, he would go back to the fallen world belief. Because of sin, life sucks in all manner of ways. God doesn't cause it (we aren't Calvinists), but he does work through it and redeem it.

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What about the ones who don't survive it? The ones who don't get redeemed through their suffering? Whose short lives are filled with nothing but pain and agony? Is it a blessing to be born to live a short life of torture or for people to be able to prevent that suffering? If you knew you were going to have baby after baby that you were going to watch slowly starve to death, do you really think you would be all "Yeah another blessing!" when you found out you were pregnant?

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What about the ones who don't survive it? The ones who don't get redeemed through their suffering? Whose short lives are filled with nothing but pain and agony? Is it a blessing to be born to live a short life of torture or for people to be able to prevent that suffering? If you knew you were going to have baby after baby that you were going to watch slowly starve to death, do you really think you would be all "Yeah another blessing!" when you found out you were pregnant?

Her husband was a blessing and he survived it, so god is in control, no doubt about it. Those other 15 million children that were born in his same birth year that didn't survive? Ah, no worries, that was just God's will.

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Her husband was a blessing and he survived it, so god is in control, no doubt about it. Those other 15 million children that were born in his same birth year that didn't survive? Ah, no worries, that was just God's will.

Sucks to be them doesn't? Too bad God didn't love them as much as he loved her her husband. And I really think that if all these QF people had to watch child after child die horrible deaths, they wouldn't think preventing pregnancy was a horrible thing.

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This is why I hate their view of god so, so much. It is the ultimate in asshole gods. Some people are worthy of life and some aren't.

Sort of contradicts the sanctity of life idea doesn't it?

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My "red flags". I really have a hard time with this thinking. As- You might be in a situation (already having many kids?) of having no choice but to move in with friends (soon to be ex-friends!) or parents (I guarantee that relationship will never recover either), but you would continue to create more kids? As in, you can't support the ones you already have but you are going to have more? If you were my daughter (which you obviously are not, and my daughter does not share this belief system), some very frank talk would be occurring.

User statistics show that you (abba12) have been on this board this morning.

I guess you have no answers/comments. I hope that means you are thinking about this things.

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Here is my question for a Quiverful person, according to your brliefs, : I have been told by many Doctors, and prayed about it, others have prayed for me however, I'm still unable to conceive. Am I committing an unbiblical and sinfulact having sex, without birth control, but full well knowing the act will never result in me being pregnant?

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Angri-la, I think most QF would answer that you're doing nothing wrong. You didn't take any action with the intention of becoming infertile. People continue to have sex within marriage when they can no longer get pregnant, so I don't see any reason why it would be any different for you to have sex.

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Since you're back, VeraAnne, how do you think it is possible to reconcile "disease is not God's will so we can treat it" with "X getting sick was God's punishment". And there are many christians who hold both these beliefs simultaneously.

Also, the QF stance on ectopic pregnancy or pregnancy that endangers mothers health means that they accept that God wills the conception of a fetus that will kill the mom.

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