Where in the World is Doug Phillips (Who is a Tool)? Part 12

[Jasmar]

Also, Gothard’s material has been used in prisons, so another avenue to disseminate its toxic waste among a (literally) captive audience. I can’t remember whether his so-called character studies have been used in public schools, but it seems like I recall reading that. Again though, not so sure on that one.

[Howl]

3 hours ago, Jasmar said:

I can’t remember whether his so-called character studies have been used in public schools, but it seems like I recall reading that.

I recall that they tried to make inroads in public schools, but I don't think that approach was successful.  Probably a teacher or principle looked over the materials and immediately da fuq is this? and noped on the whole thing. 

[Cults-r-us]

14 hours ago, Howl said:

Gothard was hugely popular and influential for a time, filling large venues, jetting around the world, maintaining multiple properties, and I'll bet there was a radio program in there somewhere. 

Perhaps the damage was done with his school curriculum, which (from what I've read)  is apparently both stultifying and toxic, with the added benefit of killing critical thinking skills.  A particularly horrible aspect of the Gothard teaching was assigning blame and at least partial responsibility to victims of sexual abuse.  

But all things patriarchy are destructive to girls and women, and all of them promoted that to some degree or another. 

 

On one hand, I remember sewing Frumpers, and they seemed cute at the time, what with the big collar things. Dr. Dobson seemed so impassioned and reasonable (in a chicken little sort of way). Who was to guess that these  perfect families on display were so flawed? We suspected none of this terrible underbelly of the patriarchal movement.

[RebelliousEscapee]

Doug has a new website at douglaswphillips.com

[Sarcastically spinster]

 

On 8/19/2021 at 10:03 PM, Columbia said:

That’s interesting. I always thought of Vision Forum as the more public organization and ATI as more isolationist. Did you find that there was a lot of overlap between the two? Or did they tend to stick to their own camps? I know DPIAT had a very high opinion of Gothard. 

I think VF was more active on social media and so gave more of an illusion of publicity? 

As someone who grew up in fundie circles, I would say ATI was mainstream fundie, while VF was more fringe fundie.  I went to a conservative Christian college and knew people who grew up in ATI and looking back, can see a fair bit of ATI-style influence on things taught there.  A lot of ATI teachings might have had disagreement, but people wouldn't have thought they were nuts.  Most people would have thought VF was nuts.  Think Bob Jones/Liberty/PCC types of circles, which is the more mainstream fundie.  ATI made inroads there.  VF didn't really.  

[Khendra]

I would have never heard of VF were it not for Jordan Niednagel.  Actually, I'd never heard of ATI until Jeremy Niednagel's wife, either.  My mom got some Bob Jones University textbooks for homeschool back in the day, but that's the extent I'd ever known of more far-right Christianity.  My parents were instead into the End Times, Trinity Broadcasting Network, Left Behind books, Benny Hinn, and "listening for God's voice" type Christianity.  They essentially built their own theology by cobbling together their own intuitions, studies, and influences from those types of media.  The Niednagels, meanwhile, hated Pentecostalism because they associated it with "right brain extroverts," who they thought were more sinful and less analytic/systematic in their theology, among other things.  I remember clashing so hard with them once I learned more about what they believed, and how it differed in so many ways from what my own parents taught.  That was my wake-up call that not all "conservative Christianity" was the same.  It took years in the making, but it was a lesson well-learned.

[refugee]

On 8/19/2021 at 7:03 PM, Columbia said:

That’s interesting. I always thought of Vision Forum as the more public organization and ATI as more isolationist. Did you find that there was a lot of overlap between the two? Or did they tend to stick to their own camps? I know DPIAT had a very high opinion of Gothard. 

Interesting. I think my experience was opposite @Sarcastically spinster’s recollection. Our homeschool  support group included several ATI families. They always gave off a helpful-but-holier-than-thou impression. They maintained a shining image—y’know, the kind of families featured on the cover of Teaching Home magazine (and several of them were, as a matter of fact). But while they would take part in group events—moms breakfasts, dads gatherings, field trips—they kindly but politely refused to socialize with non-ATI families in any sort of more intimate setting (family friendships) but kept to like-minded ATI families. ATI “educational” materials were like some kind of secret. We went to music lessons at an ATI house, and that’s where I saw my first Wisdom Booklets, but they gave me the impression that they weren’t for general consumption.

No, you had to “join the club” by plonking down $700 and going to the annual “training” (like a weeklong camp out? Like Big Bend, maybe?). It was a bargain for big families—$700 for a year’s worth of curriculum for all the kids. But for our small family? Not economical.

Whereas the VF contingent at our former cult actively recruited people to the VF way of doing things, which seems mostly in hindsight to have been sales reps for VF books, CDs, DVDs, conferences, “adventures”, etc. There was a pecking order and a glass ceiling. Or wall? Or candy store window? I still don’t know what the criteria were to be a member of the in-crowd. You were tolerated if you toed the VF line. (Oh, you know, strict segregation of boys and girls, strict gender roles, dads into guns and cigars and whiskey). Yet even some large families who seemed to meet the criteria were kept at arm’s length by the insiders.

That said, I think Gothard’s teachings infused culture and christianity sort of like invisible nerve gas. Looking at it in hindsight, connecting dots when Recovering Grace started publishing accounts and pages out of Wisdom Booklets, I saw so many parallels with teachings I saw in non-ATI church groups and communities, noticed parallels between Gothard and Dobson and Dave Ramsey and John MacArthur and John Piper and others… either Gothard’s influence permeated churchian culture from the 1970s and 80s onward, or there are common themes in patriarchy that all these monsters draw upon. Or both.

Whereas VF was pretty niche… you had to be plugged in to a community with one of his “sales reps” to really know anything about him if you weren’t a VF family.

Anyhow, that’s how I remember it. 

Edited August 25, 2021 by refugee
WTF, autocorrect?

[Jasmar]

There were a couple of families from our homeschool group that went VF around the late 2000s. They quit socializing with any of us who weren’t into it, and ended up quitting our homeschool group. They made a new one just for other VF families. They all had the girls taking violin lessons, and the girls all wore fussy dresses all the time. My good friend at the time was especially hurt, because one of those wives was someone she’d grown up with and admired for a long time, and the woman completely ghosted her.

We’re in the PNW too.

[refugee]

9 minutes ago, Jasmar said:

There were a couple of families from our homeschool group that went VF around the late 2000s. They quit socializing with any of us who weren’t into it, and ended up quitting our homeschool group. They made a new one just for other VF families. They all had the girls taking violin lessons, and the girls all wore fussy dresses all the time. My good friend at the time was especially hurt, because one of those wives was someone she’d grown up with and admired for a long time, and the woman completely ghosted her.

We’re in the PNW too.

I sympathize. Our homeschool group was shattered when Gregg Harris started his Households church. 50 out of 100 families split off right then. Sono Harris started a speech and debate club, but you had to join their church to participate, and so the group lost more families.

The homeschool group went from a vibrant, active organization, with multiple field trips every month for different ages (preschool, elementary, middle school, high school) and classes and social gatherings to struggling and eventually fizzled out.

Edited August 25, 2021 by refugee
Autocorrect strikes again

[Jasmar]

Lol, you must be from the same area I’m from. We knew several Household of Faith families, and my daughter visited the one in Boring several times (and HATED it) with friends.

Fun fact: the last church we were a part of, my kids and I were on the coffee team. Gregg Harris and one of his sons joined right before we left, and we were scheduled to work the coffee team the same weekend they were. That wasn’t why we quit (although it didn’t help - any church where Gregg Harris would be comfortable was not for us), but we left before that weekend happened.

[refugee]

7 hours ago, Jasmar said:

Lol, you must be from the same area I’m from. We knew several Household of Faith families, and my daughter visited the one in Boring several times (and HATED it) with friends.

Fun fact: the last church we were a part of, my kids and I were on the coffee team. Gregg Harris and one of his sons joined right before we left, and we were scheduled to work the coffee team the same weekend they were. That wasn’t why we quit (although it didn’t help - any church where Gregg Harris would be comfortable was not for us), but we left before that weekend happened.

Maybe we overlapped at the same church? Lol! Or maybe we each went to two different churches that the Harrises attended? I have no idea what they did in between Households folding in Portland (or was it Gresham or Boring? My memory is fading, but I think they had several before there was some CSA scandal that was the beginning of the end, if I’m remembering right. I’m not sure when it happened, just that he had stopped pastoring by the time we fled the PCA cult—and I seem to think only one Households was left by that time, the one in Vancouver?) and when he showed up at the church my family attended for a few years. Small world, in any event.

p.s. Another coincidence: that was also the last church I ever attended.

I hope this makes sense. I should be sleeping, not taking trips through old recollections.

Edited August 26, 2021 by refugee
p.s.

[refugee]

Was it Gothard who started the Cabbage Patch doll frenzy?

edit: The thought struck me that if Gothard was the one who had churchians in a frenzy burning their kids’ cabbage patch dolls, then he was definitely more in the mainstream than VF, which I only heard about in christian homeschool circles, first because the Oregon state christian homeschool organization invited Phillips to do a Titanic conference one year, and because some families in our former cult began to push VF as “the Way”.

So secular and more general society had Gothard on their radar (I heard about burning dolls and CDs years before we started homeschooling), but VF was more likely to have recognition in homeschooling circles, if at all.

Edited August 26, 2021 by refugee
Added context to question

[Leftitinmysnood]

@refugee,  Gothard originated nothing. He liberally "borrowed" and combined the ideas of others. He did start promoting the demon possessed Cabbage Patch doll idea around 1986, but that is also the year Turmoil in the Toybox came out which said the same thing. (My parents had the book, but they were into Gothard's Basic Youth Conflicts before that.) I had 1 knockoff homemade Cabbage Patch that I think my parents actually thought might be possed because she did all the things I wanted to do, but was too good to. 😉 She spent a lot of time in time-out in the hall closet.. But I also got couple of others as the demand lessened, as did my sister. They didn't dissappear until we moved when I was 14, but I wasn't attached to them at that point.

[AnnaSofia]

Kelcie Yeo (Justice's ex) is engaged.

She seems to have stayed friendly with the Phillips family, both Beall and Liberty commented on Kelcie's IG (Beall said she was happy for her, Liberty said the photos were stunning), and Kelcie just commented on Faith's.

[Howl]

My goodness, that's a defrauding dress.  What does the fiancé do that will keep her in the style to which she's accustomed?  Or will they slide through life lubed by MLM essential oil grift?

[JermajestyDuggar]

17 minutes ago, Howl said:

My goodness, that's a defrauding dress.  What does the fiancé do that will keep her in the style to which she's accustomed?  Or will they slide through life lubed by MLM essential oil grift?

I don’t think The Phillips family care about modesty anymore. I’ve seen plenty of defrauding outfits on the Phillips gals. 

[AnnaSofia]

4 hours ago, Howl said:

My goodness, that's a defrauding dress.  What does the fiancé do that will keep her in the style to which she's accustomed?  Or will they slide through life lubed by MLM essential oil grift?

Based on the profile pic, this seems to be his Facebook: https://d.facebook.com/people/Leland-Cantrell/100004052740922

[Sarcastically spinster]

On 8/25/2021 at 7:28 PM, refugee said:

Our homeschool  support group included several ATI families. They always gave off a helpful-but-holier-than-thou impression. They maintained a shining image—y’know, the kind of families featured on the cover of Teaching Home magazine (and several of them were, as a matter of fact). But while they would take part in group events—moms breakfasts, dads gatherings, field trips—they kindly but politely refused to socialize with non-ATI families in any sort of more intimate setting (family friendships) but kept to like-minded ATI families. ATI “educational” materials were like some kind of secret. We went to music lessons at an ATI house, and that’s where I saw my first Wisdom Booklets, but they gave me the impression that they weren’t for general consumption.

I could see this.  Much of my experience with actual ATI families was actually with kids of families who were out - I interacted with VF families while still in VF, but not really with ATI families who were actively in ATI at that point.  But I do know that in conservative Christianity I saw far more influence of ATI beliefs than VF, which it sounds like lines up with your experience.  

[danvillebelle]

40 minutes ago, Sarcastically spinster said:

They maintained a shining image—y’know, the kind of families featured on the cover of Teaching Home magazine (and several of them were, as a matter of fact).

That was my first exposure to the Michael and Susan Bradrick family - when Betsy Bradrick and her now convicted sex offender husband Andy had their wedding photo on the cover of The Teaching Home.  Barf.

[Howl]

11 hours ago, AnnaSofia said:

 

That dollar sign pattern is a stylized marijuana leaf.   Not yet legal in Tennessee. 

[AnnaSofia]

On 8/30/2021 at 1:57 PM, Howl said:

Not yet legal in Tennessee. 

But far more $$$ than the Amazon warehouse job, I'm sure

Based on that Pinterest-tastic proposal I was honestly expecting something quite different when I looked him up...

[CyborgKin]

I wonder how long they've been 'very bestest friends'.

[hoipolloi]

In which a butthurt Doug Phillips criticizes Jen Psaki:

 

[Howl]

Doug can't quite grok that men  (we're talking about you, Peter Doocy) are shamed and marginalized because they ask inane "gotcha" questions that are effortlessly neutered by Jen Psaki.  And how, exactly, is she gender shaming men?  Is it like Doug gender shaming pregnant military pilots?

Also, I'm not aware of pregnant pilots crashing any military planes.  Anyone aware of any military planes crashed by pregnant pilots?

[refugee]

On 8/30/2021 at 9:59 AM, danvillebelle said:

That was my first exposure to the Michael and Susan Bradrick family - when Betsy Bradrick and her now convicted sex offender husband Andy had their wedding photo on the cover of The Teaching Home.  Barf.

Were the Bradricks ATI? If not, was there another homeschool organization that pushed “matching dresses for all the girls”? (for the Bradricks, that meant ankle length, long sleeves, and high necks, if I’m remembering right.)

I seem to remember the ATI families we knew were often matchy-matchy, but I don’t know how reliable my memories of those days are anymore. It’s rather faded and faraway. I wonder how much of that is a trauma response or the result of living in severe cognitive dissonance for an extended period. I feel like I’m thinking much more clearly these days, but my difficulty remembering details from 1995-2012 or 2013 is troubling. (We joined our former cult in 1993, but it was relatively “normal” for a conservative church the first two or three years.)

Specific things I remember about the ATI families we knew (besides what I mentioned): They tended to cultivate a family “thing”. One family renovated homes (before flipping became popular). One family had a high-quality (I mean, they were really excellent, even invited to play overseas, taking lessons from professional orchestra performers through a local school of music and playing in the city’s high-tone youth orchestra) string quartet. They earned money with their playing, and they were good. They had more than four kids, but as an older kid left, a younger kid would step in, so it lasted. Many of the homeschool moms I knew dreamed of their kids becoming a professional string quartet, just like that family.

The Bradricks, as I recall, sang hymns in four-part harmony at conventions. How I envied them… my spouse and one of my kids had a lot of trouble matching tones, so harmony was not in our future.

tldr; were the Bradricks ATI? Were they lone rangers or part of some larger brainwashing organization?

Edited September 5, 2021 by refugee
Perfectionism raises its ugly head again