Joe & Kendra 15: Mother/Daughter Pregnancies are So Not Icky

[indianabones]

2 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

If the Duggars/Caldwells were not againt child marriage, they could have their 3-generation bump pic. One at 15, one at 30, one at 45.  

LOL, Michelle got married at 17. The only reason they would claim to be "against child marriage" is to look good in the public eye (and then again, their 17 year old son just proposed to his girlfriend anyways...)

[JordynDarby5]

8 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I kind of think they wouldn't either. But I often wonder if Michelle wanted to do IVF but couldn't find a doctor who would take her on. Think about it what Dr would to IVF on a 45(?) yr old woman who already had 19 children, has a history of multiples, preecampsia & preterm birth and will NOT for a second consider a reduction if it was multiples.  Josie was born around the same time Octomom had her litter, and there was so much backlash from this and if I remember correctly the dr who did the IVF lost his medical license, for gross misconduct (I had to google this). I think fertility drs were being a lot more selective in who they would or wouldn't take on.  

Part of me thinks Michelle would have done IVF in a heart beat if it meant she could having babies until her uterus fell out, if she could have found someone to do it. 

 

I've wondered that too. I could see JB and Michelle wanting to use IVF. I know IVF is against Gothard or whatever but these two learned nothing from Josie's birth and currently never took it as a sign from God to stop having children. I could see them going  through with it and lying claiming it was "God's will" that Michelle got pregnant again. They didn't want to stop having kids. But no doctor would do it given Michelle's history and it being very likely she couldn't carry another baby to birth. 

[medimus]

On 12/10/2020 at 6:35 AM, SorenaJ said:

 

One a similar note, does anyone know if fertility is highest in the teens or twenties? Would a 15 year old have an easier time getting pregnant than a 25 year old? I would assume so, because the eggs are "freshest" the younger you are? Any studies done? I did have a google, but it just said fertility is highest in the late teens and early twenties. Might be because it is in unethical doing studies on young teens, and because most 15 year olds are not deliberately trying to get pregnant. 

Here's a graph that show's your chance of getting pregnant every month by age.  It is highest in your early-mid twenties and drops substantially from there.  

[Bluebirdbluebell]

On 12/10/2020 at 4:22 AM, indianabones said:

LOL, Michelle got married at 17. The only reason they would claim to be "against child marriage" is to look good in the public eye (and then again, their 17 year old son just proposed to his girlfriend anyways...)

The poster was saying the Caldwells seem to be against child marriage. 

It's possible that Joe and Kendra were younger when they started courting, but she was 18 when he proposed and 19 when she got married. 

Also there is a slight  difference between letting a 17 get married and letting your 15 or 14 year old get married. Among other I believe the medical risks go up if she gets pregnant. 

[Iamtheway]

On 12/10/2020 at 12:15 AM, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I can't, because she's against too medical intervention. Even Michelle quit when she couldn't have them biologically.

But in their world an unused embryo would be an abandoned baby. Sending it to medical waste would be murder as much as abortion. It wouldn’t be to grow their quiver. It would be to save the baby! For Jesus! ?

[justmy2cents]

In an early 19 kids and counting episode Michelle was a speaker at some conference and a woman asked her how she felt about IVF. She hemmed and hawed and mumbled something about being fortunate that she never needed to consider it but she feels for infertile couples. Definitely seemed that she was against it. I don’t think she wanted another baby so bad that she would reconsider it. She probably had withdrawal at first like you would to any addiction, but then she seemed to be in a better place (new season of life) than she had in years.

[Expectopatronus]

On 12/9/2020 at 5:13 PM, Iamtheway said:

I can see her adopting an embryo. To save a precious baby that was going to become medical waste. And to get that chance at the three generation bump-pic. 

My daughter is an adopted embryo. The best decision I ever made and the best $10 000 I ever spent. I’d do it again in a heartbeat if I had the money. It is a beautiful program and I wish that more couples would allow their remaining embryos to be adopted. 

[Johannah]

I’ve mentioned this here before, but I’ve always wondered if Michael Bates would consider embryo adoption. I kind of think she would be anti, maybe bc it seems like it’s promoting IVF? Not that their beliefs are consistent or logical, but I don’t see what their religious opposition to embryo adoption would be. 

[baldricks_turnip]

3 hours ago, Johannah said:

I’ve mentioned this here before, but I’ve always wondered if Michael Bates would consider embryo adoption. I kind of think she would be anti, maybe bc it seems like it’s promoting IVF? Not that their beliefs are consistent or logical, but I don’t see what their religious opposition to embryo adoption would be. 

I wonder if Kelly's use of intervention to maintain her later pregnancies will make it easier for Michael to head in that direction. If 'playing god' is acceptable to continue the development of an embryo or fetus, I could see how they could extend that reasoning to embryo adoption.

[FaithAndReason]

I can't imagine they'd support adopting an embryo for many possible reasons

• adoption means you "take on the sins of the parents" or whatever that nonsense is that I've heard from anti-adoption Christians and adopting an embryo would be looked at in a similar vein
• it would mean having the sperm/DNA of another man inside a fundie's wife. (nvm a different woman's egg/DNA--women don't count anyway) I am sure that those insecure men could never deal with that idea
• Adopting and implanting an embryo means "playing God". If God wanted them to have a baby, God would open the womb and make their own baby for them

*I don't subscribe to these beliefs. I'm just imagining the fundie brain

[Giraffe]

Embryo adoption probably falls under the same category as many other things. It's bad or sinful until one of them wants to use it and then it will be a blessing from their god. 

[dawbs]

On 12/11/2020 at 9:23 AM, medimus said:

Here's a graph that show's your chance of getting pregnant every month by age.  It is highest in your early-mid twenties and drops substantially from there.  

But the number of pregnancies per age isn't the same as the odds of getting pregnant by age.

Since social constructs put "time to have babies" in the woman's 20s, it makes sense thats when most pregnancies occur.

It's harder to get numbers where they adjust for who is actually trying to get pregnant 

[adidas]

First, a disclaimer: half of my nieces and nephews are on this earth because of IVF. I was offered it myself due to secondary infertility. I think it is a wonderful blessing for those who choose it, and I’m grateful that it was available to my family members. I can’t imagine life without my nieces and nephews in it. 

Also - I grew up fundie lite (different part of the family to those who have had IVF), so I know their reasoning against IVF. Most of it is centred on the belief that life begins at conception. For strict fundies, the spilling of seed is also an issue.

And now to my point: which is no doubt not the only fundie viewpoint, it’s just the viewpoint that I have personally encountered. Embryo adoption isn’t seen as being as ‘bad’ as IVF because it’s saving a life rather than destroying it. The embryos are just much a baby to them as a child born and placed for adoption, but there are other moral/faith issues involved for them as well. To them, even if an adopted baby is conceived ‘in sin’ (ie out of wedlock), the higher priority is saving life. Same for an IVF embryo. Some who shy away from IVF may be willing to consider embryo transfer because the actual conception wasn’t of their doing.

Other fundie groups may have a very different point of view. I just wanted to put out there what I know.

[Johannah]

The fact that Michael said to Erin on an episode of bringing up Bates that if she didn’t get pregnant she would “adopt me a baby,” makes me think she’s not in the gothard anti-adoption camp, but they still haven’t done it yet, so who knows. Maybe Brandon has become more anti. But I agree that if they are okay with infant adoption they might also be okay with embryo adoption, especially if they know any other fundies who have done it, and if/once they realize how much more straightforward and lower cost it is than adopting a child. But Michael is seriously straitlaced. The whole other man’s sperm/playing God thing might be too much for her. Btw, if it’s playing God to go through IVF, how is it not playing God to adopt? Wouldn’t god impregnate you if he wanted you to have a child?

[AussieKrissy]

2 hours ago, Johannah said:

The fact that Michael said to Erin on an episode of bringing up Bates that if she didn’t get pregnant she would “adopt me a baby,” makes me think she’s not in the gothard anti-adoption camp, but they still haven’t done it yet, so who knows. Maybe Brandon has become more anti. But I agree that if they are okay with infant adoption they might also be okay with embryo adoption, especially if they know any other fundies who have done it, and if/once they realize how much more straightforward and lower cost it is than adopting a child. But Michael is seriously straitlaced. The whole other man’s sperm/playing God thing might be too much for her. Btw, if it’s playing God to go through IVF, how is it not playing God to adopt? Wouldn’t god impregnate you if he wanted you to have a child?

I wonder how the family feels about egg donation from one of the sisters? I would assume only from the married ones (in consultation with their husbands). So genetically Michael's niece or nephew but her husband's baby. 
egg donation is so deeply personal i would not blame any of the sisters if they did not want to do it, even based on a religious ideal. I also think their husband's in this case should get a say as the baby would be their children's biological half sibling.

[baldricks_turnip]

36 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

I wonder how the family feels about egg donation from one of the sisters? I would assume only from the married ones (in consultation with their husbands). So genetically Michael's niece or nephew but her husband's baby. 
egg donation is so deeply personal i would not blame any of the sisters if they did not want to do it, even based on a religious ideal. I also think their husband's in this case should get a say as the baby would be their children's biological half sibling.

My gut feeling is that they would consider it almost like infidelity to have one half of a married couple create a biological child with someone outside of the marriage. I think they would find it much easier to rationalise embryo adoption where neither parent has had biological input.

[AussieKrissy]

2 hours ago, baldricks_turnip said:

My gut feeling is that they would consider it almost like infidelity to have one half of a married couple create a biological child with someone outside of the marriage. I think they would find it much easier to rationalise embryo adoption where neither parent has had biological input.

I did think something along those lines also. 

[Jinder Roles]

On 12/12/2020 at 9:09 PM, justmy2cents said:

In an early 19 kids and counting episode Michelle was a speaker at some conference and a woman asked her how she felt about IVF. She hemmed and hawed and mumbled something about being fortunate that she never needed to consider it but she feels for infertile couples. Definitely seemed that she was against it. I don’t think she wanted another baby so bad that she would reconsider it. She probably had withdrawal at first like you would to any addiction, but then she seemed to be in a better place (new season of life) than she had in years.

I actually remember this. To her credit, Michelle said she couldn’t have an opinion on it because she didn’t know much on how it worked. 
 

The only time I’ve seen her do that. Wish she had the same approach to other topics. 

[SorenaJ]

How much sin can an embryo have though? 

[Nothing if not critical]

13 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

How much sin can an embryo have though? 

According to the Catholic Church's doctrine on the topic, a whole lot!

[CaricatureQualities]

Has anyone come across this treasure yet? 

 

[kmachete14]

@Nothing if not critical it’s not that the embryo is sinning, it’s that the c church thinks children should be conceived “naturally.” I truly wonder what they think should happen to all the stock piled embryos though !! 

[medimus]

On 12/15/2020 at 12:49 AM, dawbs said:

But the number of pregnancies per age isn't the same as the odds of getting pregnant by age.

Since social constructs put "time to have babies" in the woman's 20s, it makes sense thats when most pregnancies occur.

It's harder to get numbers where they adjust for who is actually trying to get pregnant 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. This doesn't show how many pregnancies occur by age, this is purely a women's chance of conceiving per cycle. Only for those women not using contraception. Which goes up to a peak in the early-mid twenties. Teenagers have lots of anovulatory cycles in the first few years after menarche, so they aren't the most fertile.

If this graph did take the humber of pregnancies at each age in to account, it wouldn't look like such a perfect bell curve. This is from Belgium, where currently the average age of first pregnancy is 30 and the number of teen pregnancies is tiny, the graph would have a much later peak. 

[Nothing if not critical]

6 hours ago, kmachete14 said:

@Nothing if not critical it’s not that the embryo is sinning, it’s that the c church thinks children should be conceived “naturally.” I truly wonder what they think should happen to all the stock piled embryos though !! 

I was referring to the doctrine of original sin here - sorry, if that was unclear (that's what you get for trying to sound flippant). Anyway, afaik, original sin has nothing to do with the mode of conception - though yes, the Catholic Church absolutely teaches "natural" conception only.
 

And yes, I'm aware that even the Catholic Church doesn't take "original sin" to mean that babies are born with any personal sins, just with a general tendency to sin. Still, this is one of my major quibbles with Christian doctrine. How anyone could look at a newborn baby and see a potential sinner, with a "sin nature", rather than a human being with infinite possibilities, is simply beyond me.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Nothing if not critical

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

A friend of mine is a pretty devout catholic, and had trouble conceiving and she could only go as far as IUI (inter uterine insemination), she was able to conceive 3 times via this method.  

I do wonder if Michael & Brandon have used some more basic fertility treatments, like IUI or medications to help increase chances of fertility? I wonder what their level of comfort with doctors messing around "down there"  would Brandon be able to ejaculate into a jar for medical testing, is it just assumed it is Michael who has the fertility problem or have they mentioned it? I can see fundies just blaming the women when it is possible the man has low (or no) sperm counts.