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samurai_sarah

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@libgirl2, the annulment doesn't say there was no marriage,it says that the spiritual bond of matrimony wasn't met. Children of a legal union are considered legitimate, Sometimes, it seemed to me like a bit of mental hocus pocus, but as time passed, I began to understand it more clearly. Mr. Four is also Catholic, and I know he wanted a Catholic wedding, but we had already been married when my annulment came through..

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I got an annulment also for "lack of canonical form". In other words, this "good Catholic" girl didn't get married in the church, civil marriage only. It was quick, cheap and easy. The kid was illegitimate anyway he was born about a month before we got married. 

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I just have to say, I'm proud of Jill. Don't disagree with her on everything and never will, but you know, she's come pretty far. She seems to be doing a lot of (self-)reflection - something I don't see your basic Duggar work on. Must be hard as fuck being weaned off the kool-aid.

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I grew up Catholic and I think the whole mental gymnastics annulment process is ridiculous. If people want to get married in the church, the church should let them gay or straight, divorced, widowed or single, etc. 

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1 hour ago, finnlassie said:

I just have to say, I'm proud of Jill. Don't disagree with her on everything and never will, but you know, she's come pretty far. She seems to be doing a lot of (self-)reflection - something I don't see your basic Duggar work on. Must be hard as fuck being weaned off the kool-aid.

I absolutely agree. She has put some distance between her own and her family’s beliefs, while processing all that has happened to her over the last 30 years, all at the same time that her father, and one time role model, has turned his back on her family. Good for her. I hope she continues soaring and does whatever she wants in life. Screw JB!

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Jill is talking about anxiety and pointing people towards a Christian author she has looked at to help her with anxiety.I didn’t look into it yet. But it’s refreshing to see a fundie acknowledgment of anxiety and not pretend it doesn’t exist.  (I’ll take it back if the person she referenced only says pray it all away and it’s shameful to have it because if you do you don’t have enough faith). 

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18 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

Jill is talking about anxiety and pointing people towards a Christian author she has looked at to help her with anxiety.I didn’t look into it yet. But it’s refreshing to see a fundie acknowledgment of anxiety and not pretend it doesn’t exist.  (I’ll take it back if the person she referenced only says pray it all away and it’s shameful to have it because if you do you don’t have enough faith). 

I don't think so...she and Derdick have admitted to seeing a therapist/counselor. She's come a long way. Ok, so she's not a pro-choice feminist yet but...given where she started...every baby step is hard as fuck. My stepdaughters were raised JW and they're STILL trying to deal with the brainwashing they endured. Every little step either one takes to lose that cultish mindset is a victory to me. There is a certain book that JWs are told to avoid because it's full of lies. Both girls have read it. That's HUGE...a step out of the brainwashing. They've both been wading out of the mindfuck for about the last 10-12 years...and they're still dealing with it. Jill will be sorting all this out for a long time to come. Shit, just going from IFB to SBC is a big step for her. 

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2 hours ago, feministxtian said:

I don't think so...she and Derdick have admitted to seeing a therapist/counselor. She's come a long way. Ok, so she's not a pro-choice feminist yet but...given where she started...every baby step is hard as fuck. My stepdaughters were raised JW and they're STILL trying to deal with the brainwashing they endured. Every little step either one takes to lose that cultish mindset is a victory to me. There is a certain book that JWs are told to avoid because it's full of lies. Both girls have read it. That's HUGE...a step out of the brainwashing. They've both been wading out of the mindfuck for about the last 10-12 years...and they're still dealing with it. Jill will be sorting all this out for a long time to come. Shit, just going from IFB to SBC is a big step for her. 

I agree. I think a lot of times people like to fall on the "but she's still got hateful beliefs" or the mindset that she's a grown adult who can choose to believe what she wants now.  But she's made giant strides and people who have been steeped in the crazy their entire lives, and who have literally been raised to believe that any thinking which deviates from how they were taught is wrong or dangerous, that's not the kind of thing you just work your way out of overnight or even in a couple of years. I don't think we're gonna see a day where Jill's marching in a pride parade, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if 5-10 years down the road she's really progressed even more in her thinking. She's definitely had an awakening that it's time to start questioning things and learning for herself. And also, it's not uncommon for people to question their beliefs, recognize they were taught wrong, but still take years to change because they have to come to terms with it themselves. 

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11 hours ago, LillyP said:

But she's made giant strides and people who have been steeped in the crazy their entire lives, and who have literally been raised to believe that any thinking which deviates from how they were taught is wrong or dangerous, that's not the kind of thing you just work your way out of overnight or even in a couple of years.

JWs don't celebrate their birthdays, Christmas or any other holiday, neither do they vote. You wouldn't believe the anxiety the girls had over just celebrating their birthday (they're twins). A Christmas tree sent J into a panic attack when she first got married (he was never a JW). 

It literally takes years to undo the crazy. Hell, I'm 56 years old, haven't been actively Catholic in probably 30 years and I STILL have issues with the god who is looking to strike me dead for any little infraction of the rules. 

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7 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

JWs don't celebrate their birthdays, Christmas or any other holiday, neither do they vote. You wouldn't believe the anxiety the girls had over just celebrating their birthday (they're twins). A Christmas tree sent J into a panic attack when she first got married (he was never a JW). 

It literally takes years to undo the crazy. Hell, I'm 56 years old, haven't been actively Catholic in probably 30 years and I STILL have issues with the god who is looking to strike me dead for any little infraction of the rules. 

In my first job I shared an office with a JW. It stressed her out endlessly when someone would bring in birthday cake; she would stay in the office whenever everyone went to the breakroom for any sort of celebration. She wouldn't even go out to lunch with the other 3 of us on our team unless it was sufficiently far away from anyone's birthday/holiday so as not to give the appearance that we were celebrating. But she would randomly bring us gifts throughout the year since the rest of us exchanged small gifts at Christmas or birthdays. 

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1 minute ago, OHFL2009 said:

But she would randomly bring us gifts throughout the year since the rest of us exchanged small gifts at Christmas or birthdays. 

That's their "excuse" for not celebrating Christmas..."but we give gifts all year round". When the girls were younger, if Mr. Xtian's weekend fell across a holiday, his X would, in no uncertain terms, tell him that he would not be able to have the girls. It was an utter mindfuck. Thank God they're both out of it. I think their mother sort of shuns them now though because they're no longer JWs. 

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25 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

I think their mother sort of shuns them now though because they're no longer JWs. 

That is so sad...

It's easy to say things from the outside, but I cannot imagine ANY scenario where I would put ANY religion before my child(ren). If a religion tells me I effectively have to cut off my children in one way or another, then there is something wrong with that "religion" and I want no part of it. 

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I think that's why I talk to them so often...especially H. I know it's pathetic that their mother pretty much puts her religion first but she's got some other issues going on too...

H and I had a very rocky relationship when she was younger. She and I are a lot alike and then there were the religious differences. Now, we talk almost every day. She knows my love for her is not contingent on anything other than she is a daughter of my heart. Her dad's death had a lot to do with it too. Because of mom and the goofy religion, they held their dad at arms length, and by the time they had worked through enough shit that they wanted a relationship with their dad, it was too late. He died less than a week after they came to visit him. They realize now what they've missed. Its not like I hit them over the head with that, they are well aware of it. I guess they also see me as a link to their dad. Its a sad as hell situation...but we're making the best of it. They have been assured that their dad loved them very much and that I love them. I've been slowly sending them things that were his, photo albums, stuff like that. 

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I knew a JW growing up. She was not allowed to have birthdays, so she had a party called a "glitter party" where she invited over her friends without calling it a birthday.

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2 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

I knew a JW growing up. She was not allowed to have birthdays, so she had a party called a "glitter party" where she invited over her friends without calling it a birthday.

The mental gymnastics on that. Just call a spade a fucking spade and have the bday party. You think god doesn’t know your glitter party is to make up for no bday party??!!!! Religion can be stupid and people stupider!!! 

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28 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

The mental gymnastics on that. Just call a spade a fucking spade and have the bday party. You think god doesn’t know your glitter party is to make up for no bday party??!!!! Religion can be stupid and people stupider!!! 

JWs are good at mental gymnastics. I think that's why people who get out end up so mindfucked. 

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All ex JWs I know are very embarrassed about not knowing how to behave during holidays. They're glad to join people's birthdays, but it's confusing to navigate during them when you've been told you'll go to hell for it well into your adulthood.

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4 hours ago, feministxtian said:

That's their "excuse" for not celebrating Christmas..."but we give gifts all year round". When the girls were younger, if Mr. Xtian's weekend fell across a holiday, his X would, in no uncertain terms, tell him that he would not be able to have the girls. It was an utter mindfuck. Thank God they're both out of it. I think their mother sort of shuns them now though because they're no longer JWs. 

There is an older (80s) congregant in my UU Fellowship who is married to a former Catholic who converted to JW. One day he told me that had he known she was going to convert, he would have never married her...that’s how much JWs screw with people’s minds.

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3 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

There is an older (80s) congregant in my UU Fellowship who is married to a former Catholic who converted to JW. One day he told me that had he known she was going to convert, he would have never married her...that’s how much JWs screw with people’s minds.

The X was raised JW but when she and Mr. Xtian got together she was out of it. Like so many other people, she went back when the girls were born. She wanted to raise them with some religion and JW was all she knew. He was, at the time, an utterly disinterested Catholic. Later, after we got together, we both attended a non-denominational church wherever we lived. 

Mr. Xtian also said that if he had known she was going to run back to the JWs, that marriage would never have happened either. That marriage lasted roughly 12 years although they were separated for the last 2-3 years of it. He and I were pretty equally paired faith-wise. In reality, he had much more faith than I did or do...through everything he would tell me "relax, let God handle it, quit worrying. What will happen happen". I wish he was still here to remind me of that. 

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I went to high school and was somewhat friendly with a girl who was JW.  Her family converted to JW from Catholic when she was 9.  Could you imagine being told at 9 years old that there will be no more Christmas, no more Halloween, no more Easter, no more birthdays?  She once told me that she couldn't listen to the rock group KISS (this was in 1978-79) because the name was an acronym for "Kids In Satan's Service".  She couldn't wear makeup, but ironically, she, along with her mother, sold Avon. 

After high school, she was betrothed to another JW who was a year younger than her.  They got married at ages 19 and 18-like Justin and Claire!-and had three daughters within 5 years of marriage.  From what I heard, they are no longer together and her three younger siblings left the religion.  Unsure if she actually did. 

I also have a neighbor who converted from Catholic to JW and dragged her two sons into it.  I remember when she sold off all her holiday decorations at a yard sale and whatever didn't sell, she threw out.   Her husband never got involved with it and when there were Wednesday night Bible studies at the house, his pickup truck couldn't peel out of the driveway fast enough.   The kids are now adults.  The older son is completely marinated in the Kool-Aid and married the daughter of an elder at around age 20-21.  The younger son appears to be over it completely and is living with his girlfriend, which I am pretty sure the JWs would frown on.    

 

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2 hours ago, finnlassie said:

All ex JWs I know are very embarrassed about not knowing how to behave during holidays. They're glad to join people's birthdays, but it's confusing to navigate during them when you've been told you'll go to hell for it well into your adulthood.

I know two ex-JWs fairly well, and both have major resentment about missing out on birthday parties, Christmas and Easter, and other celebrations growing up. Like, in middle age and still really angry about it. 

Also, my understanding is while you can be friendly with non-JWs, you aren't supposed to really socialize outside of work and school. So they also missed out on most U.S. high school events like prom, school dances, overnight field trips, sleepovers. 

BTW, I was really surprised to learn that JWs are allowed to drink (at least wine I believe). Did everyone else know this?

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48 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

I know two ex-JWs fairly well, and both have major resentment about missing out on birthday parties, Christmas and Easter, and other celebrations growing up. Like, in middle age and still really angry about it. 

Also, my understanding is while you can be friendly with non-JWs, you aren't supposed to really socialize outside of work and school. So they also missed out on most U.S. high school events like prom, school dances, overnight field trips, sleepovers. 

BTW, I was really surprised to learn that JWs are allowed to drink (at least wine I believe). Did everyone else know this?

Interesting. Yes, one of my siblings had a JW friend in elementary school. Said friend's mom talked to my mom, and she was told that the kids could only play together if my sibling was willing to "study" with friend. My parents then made the difficult choice that the 2 couldn't do so, though they could talk on the phone. Good to get insights on the de-programming, though. And that's the journey Jill's on, and will continue to be. But it's encouraging how she's learning to think for herself.

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@nausicaa, really? Wine? Interesting. I know smoking is definitely considered a sin in JW circles.  I follow Chris Shelton, an ex_Scientologist on you tube. For all the hyper authoritarianism of Scientology, drinking and smoking are permitted. 

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Did not know about the wine thing.

Lutheran Laestadians here in Finland, that are sort of Fundie Lutherans (not all though, they've become a rather mild community in many areas, but many have the quiver full mentality) consider alcohol, dancing and make up as a hard no no, but smoking is ok. A surprising amount of their teenagers smoke as well, and the parents sort of turn a blind eye to it! It was such a weird thing to learn.

Though, I think still in the 50s, maybe even the 60s, it was considered as a sort of rite of passage for boys that they became men when they started smoking... at the age of 14-ish? I still remember this family film from the 50s here in Finland where the older boy in the family refused to start smoking and he was laughed at... I guess it was sort of a start for anti smoking campaigns for underage kids?

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