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On 1/4/2021 at 10:21 PM, BullyJBG said:

I believe it! I have read that Catholics are much more sticky about divorce, especially if one wishes to re-marry. And in some sects, priests can't marry in the first place. Wow; I imagine, that WOULD be a shock, and wouldn't there be other priests that carry on about how THAT'S why priests shouldn't marry in the first place?

Catholic priests can not marry at all.

The Catholic church doesn't allow divorce. Period. They do have annulement but it is under very strict circumstances and very difficult and expensive to get.

In most countries as there is a civil marriage on top of the Catholic marriage you can divorce your partner civilly and remarry civilly but you are still married with Your first Spouse in the eyes of God. My parents are divorced althought they married in the Catholic church. They have not married again but if they do so they can get only a civil marriage, and can not marry in a church again. A couple of Years Ago my mom was designated my cousin's godmother, so the priest asked for her status and surprise surprise after 20 Years of a divorce the Catholic church still considered her married...

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9 hours ago, Duggarite said:

They do have annulement but it is under very strict circumstances and very difficult and expensive to get.

Yup, that's how I remember it, too. 
The actual practical application may vary from one country to the other, though. I've never heard of a marriage being annulled, but I remember reading an article about the Catholic Church in Spain which claimed that it was far easier and more common to get annulments granted there. Any FJers from Spain who can confirm or deny?

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I got an annulment from the first Mr. Four , circa 1987 or so. Me: Catholic, Him: not.

I'd started the process Years Before, before I was even dating the current Mr. Four.

It involved long, involved questionnaires. My responses, handwritten, covered 106 pages. The ex had about 50 pages. My parents had about 25 questions. The ex and I had to supply questionnaires to a best friend apiece. Their answers went 12-20 pages. Then there were interviews, two or three for me, two for the ex. There were also phone interviews for some people. Then a wait, and after about a year when all this was obtained, I got a short, one paragraph letter from the diocese,  stating that the tribunal had found that our marriage, while legal, had not  demonstrated the spiritual bond of matrimony, so the marriage was spiritually invalid. They said I was free to marry again, but they recommended I keep it quiet and discreet.

They then stated that the investigation had cost a considerable amount of money, involving travel, long distance phone fees, paperwork, prayer, and If I could reimburse all or part of it, it would help maintain the tribunal's services to others.  They asked for $367.

This was in the days when rich, famous Catholic people were (allegedly) applying for annulments, paying LOADS of money, and gettin 'er done in a few weeks.. But the issue of money was never raised to me until the event was done. It lasted several years, and Mr. Four and I were married about 1.5 years before we got that letter, but it was good for me to go through.. a catharsis, and an end to an era of my life that needed an end put to it.

TL:DR, People may think it's a farce and a scam, and expensive, but it helped me heal, gave me clarity, and was worthwhile to clear my head . It was a reasonable cost, to me, for the hours spent by me, the others involved, and the tribunal.

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11 hours ago, Nothing if not critical said:

Yup, that's how I remember it, too. 
The actual practical application may vary from one country to the other, though. I've never heard of a marriage being annulled, but I remember reading an article about the Catholic Church in Spain which claimed that it was far easier and more common to get annulments granted there. Any FJers from Spain who can confirm or deny?

I am Spanish, and it is quite difficult to get an annulement here. I don't know anyone personally who got It. It is more a celebrity thing, and there are a couple of well known celebs that had gotten them. The Church tiribunal that grants annulements in Spain is known to be particularly strict while the one in Rome is a bit less strict. Getting a lawyer for that Tribunal in Rome is more expensive than in Spain.

 

Most people do not bother to get an annulement here. The system here is that we have civil marriage. The rules for civil marriage (secular marriage) are pretty simple: you have to be single (polygamy is not legal here), you can not be a first or second degree relative of your spouse and you need to be at least 18 years old. I am married with a civil marriage and the paperwork is really simple (although bureaucracy is always a bit of a pain here). If you decide to get married in a church you can do so providing you produce the same paperwork and then you can have It validated on a civil court. If you do not validate It in what we call the Civil Registry then you are not married legally, so you do not get any benefit as I would with my civil marriage, if you only get married in a church and you do not validate It in the civil registry you do not get a pension if your spouse dies, for example.

Divorce works the same way, divorce is legal in Spain and can be easily granted in court (or difficultly if you do not get to an agreement soon). So, if you got married in a church and you want to part ways with your spouse the usual thing is to get a divorce in a civil court and you forget about the church annulement. If you want to get married again you simply get a civil marriage. It is really really rare to get a second marriage in church because almost no one gets an annulement. Some people get a civil marriage the first time, get divorce and then the second marriage can be in a church, the most obvious case for that is our Queen, she married on a civil marriage first time, got a divorce, met the Prince and married him in a church. It is uncommon though but I know other case, a cousin of mine did that too (and we are a pretty normal family).

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12 hours ago, Nothing if not critical said:

Yup, that's how I remember it, too. 
The actual practical application may vary from one country to the other, though. I've never heard of a marriage being annulled, but I remember reading an article about the Catholic Church in Spain which claimed that it was far easier and more common to get annulments granted there. Any FJers from Spain who can confirm or deny?

Annulments happen in the United States, especially for wealthy, prominent Catholics. Rudy Giuliani had his first marriage annulled, because his wife was his second cousin, which he knew perfectly well when he married her. Ted Kennedy had his marriage to Joan annulled despite their three kids. His nephew Joe Kennedy II had a marriage annulled, and his ex-wife appealed to the Vatican and got it reversed!

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I have a friend who I believe was granted an annulment because despite years of dating and engagement where they actively discussed the future, as soon as they were married he said he didn't want kids after all. I'm talking within a week of the wedding. Apparently denying your spouse children is a pretty solid reason for the catholic church.

And screw him for wasting her time. She got a sperm donor later and has a beautiful almost 2 year old.

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On 1/6/2021 at 2:44 AM, Duggarite said:

The Catholic church doesn't allow divorce. Period. They do have annulement but it is under very strict circumstances and very difficult and expensive to get.

Anulement may be a bit expensive and a bit long, but it is not difficult to get it. The requirements sound hard, but there are softer than some people think. I know ordinary people (quite well off, but neither millionaries nor VIPs), who got it easily, despite having children born in that marriage. There are lawyers experts in that kind of process. 

11 hours ago, Duggarite said:

am Spanish, and it is quite difficult to get an annulement here. I don't know anyone personally who got It. It is more a celebrity thing, and there are a couple of well known celebs that had gotten them. The Church tiribunal that grants annulements in Spain is known to be particularly strict while the one in Rome is a bit less strict. Getting a lawyer for that Tribunal in Rome is more expensive than in Spain.

Spanish here, too. It's relatively easy. Pay and wait, that's all. If someone is really interested, no problem (I know people with children, with absolutely no reason to invalidate the marriage, yet they got the annullation). They only wanted to marry their new couples on a church again. But usually people don't want to invest time filling papers and pay, so they just marry again in a civil ceremony. That's why there are few annullations. Not because they are that difficult, but because people is not really interested or don't have the patience.

23 hours ago, Nothing if not critical said:

Any FJers from Spain who can confirm or deny?

Answered on the top of the message.

Edited by Melissa1977
Clarify
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20 minutes ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

I have a friend who I believe was granted an annulment because despite years of dating and engagement where they actively discussed the future, as soon as they were married he said he didn't want kids after all. I'm talking within a week of the wedding. Apparently denying your spouse children is a pretty solid reason for the catholic church.

And screw him for wasting her time. She got a sperm donor later and has a beautiful almost 2 year old.

Yeah, there are a couple of loopholes like this - if your understanding of marriage is not the same as the Catholic understanding, that's normally grounds. I've seen getting married with the intention that if it doesn't work out you can divorce also listed. So it seems like a real pain from an admin point of view, but there's more wiggle room than it appears, especially if one or both of the spouses isn't particularly devout.

When I did RCIA, the couple who came to talk to us about marriage had each had an annulment, and I think one of them had had two, It did make me pretty cross though at the time, the divorce v annulment. Most annulments hinge on there being fraud at the time the marriage was contracted... but sometimes, there's no fraud and still, those people should not be married. My grandparents divorced because my grandfather was unsafe to live with, but he was fine at the time of their marriage (obviously). I definitely got the feeling that if they were catholic, it would have been fudged to say he was unable to contract the marriage from the start.

Extremely lol at getting an annulment from your second cousin when you obviously knew. Strong Henry VIII vibes (but she's my brother's wife! ok Henry)

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There are civil annulments too, usually right after a quickie wedding. Renee Zellwiger and Kenny Chesney annulled their marriage.

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17 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Annulments happen in the United States, especially for wealthy, prominent Catholics. Rudy Giuliani had his first marriage annulled, because his wife was his second cousin, which he knew perfectly well when he married her. Ted Kennedy had his marriage to Joan annulled despite their three kids. His nephew Joe Kennedy II had a marriage annulled, and his ex-wife appealed to the Vatican and got it reversed!

The Tribunal will tell anyone who asks that an annulment does NOT render children born in the marriage illegitimate. The Church's stand is that the children were born into a legal marriage, and are legitimate. Children are not held accountable for their parents' behavior. They are not deligitimized because of an annulment. The annulment speaks only to the spiritual bond of the marriage.

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Journey to the heart’s instagram just posted this throw back and I’m cracking up at that girl’s face. She wasn’t trained to always smile for the camera like the Duggar girls. 

57A57138-83C9-4241-B104-D53B272BBC2D.jpeg

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I'm still not sure exactly what the Rufus Bless reaction means... I want to put a Rufus on above pic in honor of the two young ladies NOT smiling. Is this "acceptable" or  would it mean something different? To clarify,  I'm  old.

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ha, I don't know if I'd be trying to promote JTTH with a picture of Jill Dillard

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7 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

There are civil annulments too, usually right after a quickie wedding. Renee Zellwiger and Kenny Chesney annulled their marriage.

It's absolutely none of my business, but I've always wondered what the heck happened.

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1 hour ago, AussieKrissy said:

Jill’s reaction to the riot 

  Hide contents

8C21CAD7-34C5-4A69-ABC0-B984B791B4EE.thumb.png.c829e64c5947e173e200d5c0bdc71d4d.png

 

Was just about to post this. It’s not much but the difference between this and Ben’s “Christians like me are about to be persecuted” post is stark. 

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24 minutes ago, indianabones said:

"It's not Trump's fault, it's his supporters'!"

Do you think that is what she was saying? I didn’t post what I thought she was saying because I thought it walked the fine line of being neutral but I couldn’t pick which way she was leaning.... 

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1 minute ago, AussieKrissy said:

Do you think that is what she was saying? I didn’t post what I thought she was saying because I thought it walked the fine line of being neutral but I couldn’t pick which way she was leaning.... 

It was my interpretation, which I think was deliberate on her part. She doesn't want to pick a side by condemning Trump for inciting violence.

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17 minutes ago, indianabones said:

It was my interpretation, which I think was deliberate on her part. She doesn't want to pick a side by condemning Trump for inciting violence.

Yeah, I definitely think she’s playing it safe. I’m very “I’ll allow it” today given the brazen attitude of the right. 

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I think regardless of how you feel trusting the legal process is good council here. The election has been investigated and no fraud found, even by judges appointed by Trump himself. That speaks volumes for the lack of evidence and I'm inclined to trust it.

I do hate the bastard, but I cherish my right to vote and would be horrified to advocate invalidating someone else's vote even if they disagree with me.

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Jill is not directly condemning Trump, and her comment sounds neutral, but she is condemning her own family (Joe, Austin, their beloved Bowers, Bates etc) because all of them are OK with the insurrection.

No, I don't think Jill is that soft. At least, not for her family. She may be a conservative submissive wife, but she showed courage in her post. And moderation, which isn't bad.

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7 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Jill is not directly condemning Trump, and her comment sounds neutral, but she is condemning her own family (Joe, Austin, their beloved Bowers, Bates etc) because all of them are OK with the insurrection.

No, I don't think Jill is that soft. At least, not for her family. She may be a conservative submissive wife, but she showed courage in her post. And moderation, which isn't bad.

I liked her post. It was better than any of the other posts we have seen of this matter by any Duggar. 

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2 hours ago, louisa05 said:

Pope Francis took steps beginning in 2015 to simplify the annulment process and make it more accessible. He also requested that dioceses either eliminate or greatly reduce the associated fees. Link: 

https://www.ncronline.org/news/people/annulment-reform-seems-cultivate-change-culture

I did not get an annulment. I could have but didn't want to say there was no marriage as there was and we have a son! We ended up getting married by a Lutheran minister. I always felt that since my ex cheated, the marriage was over in God's eyes. I didn't need a man to tell me that. A few years ago, I thought about it as I would love to marry my husband in our church (he is also Catholic), but there were more pressing matters like my mom's dementia, my dad's brain cancer..... 

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