Dillards 87: Experts on Everything!

[Smee]

On 10/31/2020 at 9:09 AM, AussieKrissy said:

Fuck me. Sounds painful. In Australia you rock up. Get ya name ticketed off and go vote. Whoever ya please. We are still paper voting last time I voted too. You just register yourself when you are 18 and set and forget. I think they even automatically update your address for you. I didn’t change mine. I hate all the mail and was happy to have it sent somewhere else. Low and behold a few years later they have my correct address. Low and behold when I missed a local weird election that was for my new address and they could fine me. In Australia it is mandatory to vote. Im on the fence about that one. But I don’t mind to much. 

Various Australian government agencies share information, so it's likely that your voter registration updated when you updated something like medicare or Centrelink or anything now linked to myGov. I think it's kinda dumb that Australia doesn't have automatic registration yet we do have mandatory voting (in that every registered voter has to get their name checked off on the day or they get fined - there's nothing to stop them putting a blank ballot in the box or drawing a penis on it like a few I saw). Seems inconsistent.

Interesting that in the US all the votes are on the one ballot. Here, when you turn up to vote and get your name checked off, you get two different pieces of paper - one for the House of Representatives and one for the Senate. I worked for the election commission last time we had an election, counting votes at my local polling place. I can't imagine how hard it would have been to track all the different votes if we couldn't put the papers in different piles before counting them, especially because the count is triple-checked by three different poll workers. Then again, you're ahead of us in that you have electronic voting in some places. Our government is still too scared of hacking or servers crashing and honestly, after seeing what happened when they first did the census online, they're probably right about their inability to make sure electronic voting is functional, let alone safe.

The thing I'm most grateful for in our election system though is preferential voting - so you don't have to worry about "wasting" your vote on someone who is highly unlikely to get in. We still have two major parties dominating, especially in the House, but I think it helps to "keep the bastards honest" as one of the minor parties used to say.

[Melissa1977]

1 hour ago, medimus said:

The good thing about mandatory ID in Belgium at least, was that it started at age 12. So you got a letter in the post just before your birthday and hopped down to the local town hall with a passport size photo (photo booths available in lots of train stations etc) and 35 euro and felt very grown up putting your signature on the form

Reading this thread, I think that managing documentation in US is incredibly difficult. Maybe in Europe we are "less free" or "more controlled" but the official registers and ID process are very easy (at least for nationals). Healthcare (public or private) is also way easier, not having to fight for bill discounts after hospital stays. 

Please no offense, dear US-FJ. It is only that in US everything seems to be very easy (in films haha) and reading your experiences has changed my opinion.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Melissa1977
Spelling

[AussieKrissy]

4 hours ago, Smee said:

Various Australian government agencies share information, so it's likely that your voter registration updated when you updated something like medicare or Centrelink or anything now linked to myGov. I think it's kinda dumb that Australia doesn't have automatic registration yet we do have mandatory voting (in that every registered voter has to get their name checked off on the day or they get fined - there's nothing to stop them putting a blank ballot in the box or drawing a penis on it like a few I saw). Seems inconsistent.

Interesting that in the US all the votes are on the one ballot. Here, when you turn up to vote and get your name checked off, you get two different pieces of paper - one for the House of Representatives and one for the Senate. I worked for the election commission last time we had an election, counting votes at my local polling place. I can't imagine how hard it would have been to track all the different votes if we couldn't put the papers in different piles before counting them, especially because the count is triple-checked by three different poll workers. Then again, you're ahead of us in that you have electronic voting in some places. Our government is still too scared of hacking or servers crashing and honestly, after seeing what happened when they first did the census online, they're probably right about their inability to make sure electronic voting is functional, let alone safe.

The thing I'm most grateful for in our election system though is preferential voting - so you don't have to worry about "wasting" your vote on someone who is highly unlikely to get in. We still have two major parties dominating, especially in the House, but I think it helps to "keep the bastards honest" as one of the minor parties used to say.

Ah makes sense. It did switch over about the time I stepped foot in centerlink after about 20 years. Urrghhh. Having a baby and needing the daycare rebate. That was about the time I downloaded myGov. Otherwise I most prob would still not have it. 

[mpheels]

With a disclaimer that I obviously have not voted in every county in every state in the US... paper ballots in the US use optical scanning to count votes. That’s how they manage to have all of the votes on a single piece of paper, in general human beings are not manually counting the votes. That only happens if there is some type of discrepancy requiring a hand count, and even then only after a recount using the scanner machines.

I’ve only voted using an electronic voting machine once and I hated it. There was no paper trail, and that made me very nervous because there was no option for a hand recount if they were any type of discrepancy. I know with some electronic voting machines, they do print out a receipt that gets collected for hand recounts, but I still prefer marking a ballot with a pen. 

[medimus]

2 hours ago, mpheels said:

With a disclaimer thant I obviously have not voted in every county in every state in the US... paper ballots in the US use optical scanning to count votes. That’s how they manage to have all of the votes on a single piece of paper, in general human beings are not manually counting the votes. That only happens if there is some type of discrepancy requiring a hand count, and even then only after a recount using the scanner machines.

I’ve only voted using an electronic voting machine once and I hated it. There was no paper trail, and that made me very nervous because there was no option for a hand recount if they were any type of discrepancy. I know with some electronic voting machines, they do print out a receipt that gets collected for hand recounts, but I still prefer marking a ballot with a pen. 

Interesting, I thought paper ballots were always counted by hand. 

Maybe becuase the system used in Ireland (a version of single transferable vote) means the count goes on for aaaages. Usually anything up to a week (when voting in multiple people for the dail, but even the presidency takes a good while). THey don't bother starting until the next morning and it is very exciting.

[Maggie Mae]

9 hours ago, Smee said:

 

Interesting that in the US all the votes are on the one ballot. Here, when you turn up to vote and get your name checked off, you get two different pieces of paper - one for the House of Representatives and one for the Senate. I worked for the election commission last time we had an election, counting votes at my local polling place. I can't imagine how hard it would have been to track all the different votes if we couldn't put the papers in different piles before counting them, especially because the count is triple-checked by three different poll workers.

They are usually scanned in to easily hackable machines. However, there is a paper trail. My area has two separate elections,  outside of the party primaries, and I have to explain it to voters on the regular - the local (muni) election is in April, and that's mail in only. So if you live in my municipality, they send you a ballot, and on that ballot you mark your choice on ballot measures, assembly seats mayor, school board, bonds that apply to this specific area only. Before we went mail-in only, some areas had turn out of like 4% for local stuff, and the only people who voted were super voters and people who knew someone who was running or people who were fired up about a specific issue. There's usually quite a bit on each ballot, so putting each measure on a separate ballot that fits in the machines wouldn't be very cost effective, plus the mailing costs. 

Our state ballots are printed in 10 different languages and we offer assistance to people who are spoken language only. Again, separate ballots wouldn't make a lot of sense - we had two ballot measures, an entire page of judges, one house seat, one senate seat, and my ballot had my state House Representative up for reelection. So we are already printing specific ballots for specific areas and I would think that printing each item separately would increase the opportunity for ballots to disappear. 

[metheglyn]

3 hours ago, medimus said:

Interesting, I thought paper ballots were always counted by hand. 

Maybe becuase the system used in Ireland (a version of single transferable vote) means the count goes on for aaaages. Usually anything up to a week (when voting in multiple people for the dail, but even the presidency takes a good while). THey don't bother starting until the next morning and it is very exciting.

Below I've inserted three different types of US ballots designed for optical scanning. The first two (the ovals and the rectangles) are "fill in the box completely with a specified ink color/pencil", while the third is "connect the arrows with a straight line with a specified ink color/pencil". This isn't all of the type of ballots available, but they are some of the most common. (Note: I'm excluding punch machines from this discussion, as they're a whole other kettle of fish -- or bucket of chads.)

Some US ballots can include 30 or more races/issues/etc., front and back on a single ballot sheet, so there is absolutely no way for all of them to be hand counted. They're generally either counted by machines at the polling stations, with the votes scanned and uploaded to a storage medium then downloaded at the county election center, or counted by machines at the county election center itself. And if there is a close race, its votes will generally be machine counted again at the election center, and then if there's still an question, a SINGLE race/issue/etc. will be hand counted. But the ballots as a whole are always machine counted.

(None of this accounts for purely electronic voting machines that don't have a paper trail, of course, only for how paper ballots are counted.)

Edited November 2, 2020 by metheglyn
wrong description

[indianabones]

I'm terrified that my ballot is going to be rejected because it doesn't match the signature I used when I originally registered to vote in my state three years ago. I didn't realize that signature matching was a thing until this election- I'm worried that my signature has changed slightly, but enough for my vote to not count.

[Expectopatronus]

1 hour ago, indianabones said:

I'm terrified that my ballot is going to be rejected because it doesn't match the signature I used when I originally registered to vote in my state three years ago. I didn't realize that signature matching was a thing until this election- I'm worried that my signature has changed slightly, but enough for my vote to not count.

You have to sign the ballot?! How is the vote kept secret if everyone’s signature is on their ballot?
Until we had a fixed Election Day, federal elections could be anytime as long as it was not more than four years between elections. In grade 12, I was extremely annoyed that an election was called and occurred in June. My 18th birthday was in July. I was a pretty compliant, respectful kid but when my World Issues teacher demanded to know whether I had voted, he got some serious tone when I answered that I was too young. He tried to be comforting by suggesting that it could be a minority government in which case we’d be heading back to the polls before four years were up. He was right. I got to vote the following spring. I was one excited kid! 

[HereticHick]

27 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

You have to sign the ballot?! How is the vote kept secret if everyone’s signature is on their ballot?
Until we had a fixed Election Day, federal elections could be anytime as long as it was not more than four years between elections. In grade 12, I was extremely annoyed that an election was called and occurred in June. My 18th birthday was in July. I was a pretty compliant, respectful kid but when my World Issues teacher demanded to know whether I had voted, he got some serious tone when I answered that I was too young. He tried to be comforting by suggesting that it could be a minority government in which case we’d be heading back to the polls before four years were up. He was right. I got to vote the following spring. I was one excited kid! 

State Voter Judge here-- You sign the envelope, not the ballot, when doing a mail in/absentee ballot.

That way we know that you are submitting only one ballot. Then the envelope is separated from the ballot.   Its parallel to the in person voting process, when you are checked against the registration system, given some sort of document (in my state, its called a "voter activation card") and then you are handed your ballot.  Your ballot is cast, and your  registration receipt  is stored separately from that. Once your ballot is cast, there is no way to match up your ballot from your voter activation card.

We have to tally the ballots and voter activation cards at the end of each voting day to make sure the numbers match up. 

That way we know that no one is voting more than once.

 

[OHFL2009]

31 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

You have to sign the ballot?! How is the vote kept secret if everyone’s signature is on their ballot?
 

If you vote by mail, you have to sign the outside of the envelope; the envelope has your name on it so they can match up who has voted to make sure someone doesn't vote by mail and in person, and the signature has to match to show that it was actually you and not someone who stole your ballot from your mailbox or something.

At least in my state, the ballot gets put into an internal "secrecy sleeve" before it gets put in the envelope, so in theory, the poll worker would check off that the ballot has been received, then take out the inner sleeve, and then the ballot itself would be removed from the sleeve elsewhere, so the person who sees my name wouldn't be able to see who I voted for. Obviously I don't see that part of the process, so I can't confirm that no one looks, but that's how it's supposed to work. 

[Maggie Mae]

55 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

You have to sign the ballot?! How is the vote kept secret if everyone’s signature is on their ballot?

You sign the outside off the envelope. In my state, until a month or so ago, you also had to have a witness signature, and it couldn't be a postal worker for state elections. Local elections didn't require the witness. 

They also don't start counting absentee mail in ballots until a week after the election, because you can actually go to the polls and vote in person as well, in case your ballot doesn't make it to the election office. Since your ballot only has to be postmarked Nov 3, not received, they start counting a week later. The first round is just someone going through and removing all the ballots of people who cast provisional or questioned ballots in person. Then they open them and count them. Supposedly. 

[Smee]

3 hours ago, metheglyn said:

Below I've inserted three different types of US ballots designed for optical scanning. The first two (the ovals and the rectangles) are "fill in the box completely with a specified ink color/pencil", while the third is "connect the arrows with a straight line with a specified ink color/pencil". This isn't all of the type of ballots available, but they are some of the most common. (Note: I'm excluding punch machines from this discussion, as they're a whole other kettle of fish -- or bucket of chads.)

Some US ballots can include 30 or more races/issues/etc., front and back on a single ballot sheet, so there is absolutely no way for all of them to be hand counted. They're generally either counted by machines at the polling stations, with the votes scanned and uploaded to a storage medium then downloaded at the county election center, or counted by machines at the county election center itself. And if there is a close race, its votes will generally be machine counted again at the election center, and then if there's still an question, a SINGLE race/issue/etc. will be hand counted. But the ballots as a whole are always machine counted.

(None of this accounts for purely electronic voting machines that don't have a paper trail, of course, only for how paper ballots are counted.)

Thanks for this. You reminded me of another way our elections are different and why it must be such a challenge to run them there. We only vote for representatives (house & senate), not laws, school boards, sheriffs and DAs etc. So it’s a matter of a piece of paper with a list of names on it, and people number the boxes next to the names in order of preference. The senate ballot looks the same throughout each state, and the house of reps ballots are printed according to each electorate - but each polling place has a handful of ballots for every electorate in the state in addition to the hundreds they need for their local electorate. So when I vote, I can go to *any* polling place in the state and still be able to vote in the right race. This would be much less practical if each electorate had dozens of issues on the ballot rather than a single quarter-page slip of paper with <10 names on it. It also makes counting preferences far easier, because the ballots are first separated into piles and counted according to their #1, then they’re re-sorted and re-counted according to who they ranked higher out of the top two candidates. 

[Not that josh's mom]

1 hour ago, Maggie Mae said:

You sign the outside off the envelope. In my state, until a month or so ago, you also had to have a witness signature, and it couldn't be a postal worker for state elections. Local elections didn't require the witness. 

They also don't start counting absentee mail in ballots until a week after the election, because you can actually go to the polls and vote in person as well, in case your ballot doesn't make it to the election office. Since your ballot only has to be postmarked Nov 3, not received, they start counting a week later. The first round is just someone going through and removing all the ballots of people who cast provisional or questioned ballots in person. Then they open them and count them. Supposedly. 

I thought the counting of mail in ballots started at different times in different states. Some states start on election day, I believe.

[Maggie Mae]

3 minutes ago, Not that josh's mom said:

I thought the counting of mail in ballots started at different times in different states. Some states start on election day, I believe.

Yes, sorry I thought I made it clear I was only talking about my state that has some pretty unique challenges. Two years ago we couldn't even contact one village for a few days to get their results over the phone due to weather. 

I'm kind of hoping for a snow storm tomorrow but I don't think it will happen. 

[OHFL2009]

25 minutes ago, Smee said:

Thanks for this. You reminded me of another way our elections are different and why it must be such a challenge to run them there. We only vote for representatives (house & senate), not laws, school boards, sheriffs and DAs etc. So it’s a matter of a piece of paper with a list of names on it, and people number the boxes next to the names in order of preference. The senate ballot looks the same throughout each state, and the house of reps ballots are printed according to each electorate - but each polling place has a handful of ballots for every electorate in the state in addition to the hundreds they need for their local electorate. So when I vote, I can go to *any* polling place in the state and still be able to vote in the right race. This would be much less practical if each electorate had dozens of issues on the ballot rather than a single quarter-page slip of paper with <10 names on it. It also makes counting preferences far easier, because the ballots are first separated into piles and counted according to their #1, then they’re re-sorted and re-counted according to who they ranked higher out of the top two candidates. 

It does get a little overwhelming with all the things we have on one ballot. For example, this year my ballot had votes for President, US House Representative, State Attorney, State Senator, State House Representative, two County Commissioner spots (one districted and one at-large), State Supreme Court, 4 District Court of Appeals Judges (where the person is already in the position, and you have to vote if they should stay), County Judge, School Board Representative, Mosquito Control Commissioner, six State Constitutional Amendments, a County Bond Referendum, and a Town Fire District Referendum. My ballot was 2 pages front and back. 

Some of those things are the same state-wide, some are county-wide, and some vary from precinct to precinct. My parents, who live 15 minutes from us in the same county, voted on different County Commissioners, different School Board members, different Mosquito Control Commissioners, and didn't have a Fire District Referendum. In my county, any of the early voting locations have ballots for all precincts and when they pull up your name it tells them which ballot you get. But on Election Day you have to go to your actual precinct.   

[PennySycamore]

In SC, they are counting absentee ballots as they are cast/received.  Our early in person voting is considered early absentee although anyone is allowed to vote absentee this yea.

[patsymae]

It would be hard enough to explain our (arcane) system to those who don't live with it, but now we are in the midst of watching that system break down almost completely. At this point, it's going to have to be left to the history books, assuming the planet survives long enough for this year to be history.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

2 hours ago, OHFL2009 said:

County Commissioners, different School Board members, different Mosquito Control Commissioners,

You’re kidding about the Mosquito Control Commissioners, right?

[Smee]

11 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

You’re kidding about the Mosquito Control Commissioners, right?

This was my thought too. I genuinely can't tell! 

[indianabones]

I checked online and my ballot was accepted! (Yes, I did sign the envelope rather than the ballot itself.)  Fingers crossed that the blue wave prevails and public schools here are finally allowed to teach consent-based sex ed.

[subsaharanafrica]

4 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

You’re kidding about the Mosquito Control Commissioners, right?

Quite possibly not. I had a race for Water and Soil Conservation Supervisor on my ballot this year. There were ten people running for it, [from why I was able to dig up from a continent away via the internet] none of them seemed remotely qualified, and one of them had taken out a restraining order against another one of them. It’s a hot mess. 

[just_ordinary]

Uggghhhh I know we changed course in the thread slightly, but I feel urged to make a correction to my comment of the German election process. But I cannot edit anymore as this point.  I made quite den embarrassing mistake. First vote is person, second vote is party. The problem I described stays the same but it’s still an important difference. 
 

We can have multiple elections in the same day, but each election has its own ballot. You get lots of paper sometimes. The national one is rather small compared to some local ones. Funny enough, when such a big ballot will be presented we often get a sample with the voting notification, to make sure know how to hand in a valid ballot. 
 

Spoiler

 

[medimus]

6 hours ago, indianabones said:

I checked online and my ballot was accepted! (Yes, I did sign the envelope rather than the ballot itself.)  Fingers crossed that the blue wave prevails and public schools here are finally allowed to teach consent-based sex ed.

How do you check if the ballot was accepted? I want to check mine now!

[indianabones]

33 minutes ago, medimus said:

How do you check if the ballot was accepted? I want to check mine now!

My county has a website for ballot tracking. Not sure about other places; according to the local paper our election systems are pretty advanced compared to the rest of our state.

This website might help!

Edited November 3, 2020 by indianabones