Justin and Claire: Woe Is Me

[ignorantobserver]

4 hours ago, baldricks_turnip said:

I haven't followed many fundie families beyond the Duggars, is it common for fundie families to have 'no education and no experience'? [...] If I had a gaggle of children and didn't believe in tertiary education I'd be trying to get myself a plumber, an electrician, a carpenter, a butcher, etc.

It absolutely is common sense and the families who don't do it tend to have massive problems independently from their fundamentalist beliefs. I would say there are two main "schools of thought" - the "Amish" model, practiced by families like the Bontragers or Maxwells, where children, while not highly educated, are still prepared for farmwork or a trade ; this model seems somewhat sustainable. And the "Mendicant order" model where entire families rely on the charity of their congregation and disguise it as a ministry (think Rodrigues, Shrader), in these two cases, the parents very obviously suffer from some kind of disorder and are unable to plan for their kids' future. This lifestyle is not sustainable in the long term, and I think it won't even see a second generation because this kind of life is just too hard on the children.

I am not quite sure about the Duggars, when they started filming, they seemed to be close to the second model, but if they actually make good investments and try to get their sons settled in a business (even if it's just used cars), that would put them closer to the first model.

[HereticHick]

Claire met her Duggar beau at Big Sandy? Oh good. That worked out so well for Anna Kellar. ?

[FiveAcres]

27 minutes ago, ignorantobserver said:

It absolutely is common sense and the families who don't do it tend to have massive problems independently from their fundamentalist beliefs. I would say there are two main "schools of thought" - the "Amish" model, practiced by families like the Bontragers or Maxwells, where children, while not highly educated, are still prepared for farmwork or a trade ; this model seems somewhat sustainable. And the "Mendicant order" model where entire families rely on the charity of their congregation and disguise it as a ministry (think Rodrigues, Shrader), in these two cases, the parents very obviously suffer from some kind of disorder and are unable to plan for their kids' future. This lifestyle is not sustainable in the long term, and I think it won't even see a second generation because this kind of life is just too hard on the children.

I am not quite sure about the Duggars, when they started filming, they seemed to be close to the second model, but if they actually make good investments and try to get their sons settled in a business (even if it's just used cars), that would put them closer to the first model.

Unfortunately, a lot of these families, even those who purport to be "Amish" model, seem to produce young men who have a bad case of "you are not the boss of me." This makes it very hard to find apprenticeships in trade or interact well with people outside of the fundy mindset. If I hire someone to cut my lawn, and he seems to view it as an opportunity to preach to me, he won't be back for a return engagement. And the mendicant ones are all tapping the same resource pool, so that will be a problem in the long term. "Taking in each other's washing" doesn't really work as a long range business plan. 

[indianabones]

I watched the episode. It sounded like it was filmed in June or July, fyi. When Justin "introduces" Claire to the family and says that they are now in a relationship, literally no one looks surprised (they all reacted way more to Jinger pregnancy announcement, looks like that was what was shown in the promo.)

[JMO]

Just now, indianabones said:

I watched the episode. It sounded like it was filmed in June or July, fyi. When Justin "introduces" Claire to the family and says that they are now in a relationship, literally no one looks surprised (they all reacted way more to Jinger pregnancy announcement, looks like that was what was shown in the promo.)

If he was living with them no one should be surprised.  You can't really explain away where one of their youngest sons have gone to his siblings without giving them the back story.  It's not like JD when he met Abbie and was having a lot of freedom on his own and then swooped in with her one day. 

[Aithuia]

14 minutes ago, indianabones said:

I watched the episode. It sounded like it was filmed in June or July, fyi. When Justin "introduces" Claire to the family and says that they are now in a relationship, literally no one looks surprised (they all reacted way more to Jinger pregnancy announcement, looks like that was what was shown in the promo.)

Given that Jinger was apparently 13 weeks along and Joy was 25 weeks along during the call, it was filmed in early/mid-May (even though Michelle mentions that it had been about 3 months since the pandemic hit, which would mean sometime in June).

The family must have known about Justin and Claire for a while. Overall, if they were courting in May or June, they could definitely be engaged now, or an engagement is imminent. Poor kids. 

I think she looks like a cross between Jana and Jessa, which.....checks out. ?‍♀️

[Idlewild]

Do they honestly think we don’t know this is micromanaged to provide some interest in the show? I suppose a few diehard humpers might think this is spontaneous but it’s about as genuine as their ‘quarantining’. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

1 hour ago, ignorantobserver said:

It absolutely is common sense and the families who don't do it tend to have massive problems independently from their fundamentalist beliefs. I would say there are two main "schools of thought" - the "Amish" model, practiced by families like the Bontragers or Maxwells, where children, while not highly educated, are still prepared for farmwork or a trade ; this model seems somewhat sustainable. And the "Mendicant order" model where entire families rely on the charity of their congregation and disguise it as a ministry (think Rodrigues, Shrader), in these two cases, the parents very obviously suffer from some kind of disorder and are unable to plan for their kids' future. This lifestyle is not sustainable in the long term, and I think it won't even see a second generation because this kind of life is just too hard on the children.

I am not quite sure about the Duggars, when they started filming, they seemed to be close to the second model, but if they actually make good investments and try to get their sons settled in a business (even if it's just used cars), that would put them closer to the first model.

Both the Duggars and the Bates are more the second model. In Duggar's case, they happen to have a lot of money and they have picked up some skills, but not ones to real make a living at. I don't what the rules and how hard it would be to make Duggar Aviation an actual business of some kind, but as it stands it doesn't seem like the boys could make a lot of money as pilots. I know to work for an airline requires a different license.

The Mediccorps scam definitely fits in with the second model.

Part of the reason families don't go to "Amish" order is a lot of them don't have extra money to set their sons up in trades. The Maxwells and Bontragers are relatively well-off. That JB has the money and yet hasn't set most of his boys in any particular trade is telling. 

Also what does "Mendicant" refer to?

Edited September 22, 2020 by Bluebirdbluebell

[Kelsey]

Hey JB, your "convertible sports car" is actually a 3 wheeled motorcycle. You and Jichelle should be wearing helmets.

[FiveAcres]

23 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Also what does "Mendicant" refer to?

Mendicants are beggars. I think it is more commonly seen in reference to certain Catholic orders:

Quote

 

What are the four mendicant orders?

The mendicant orders surviving today are the four recognized by the Second Council of Lyon (1274): Dominicans, Franciscans, Augustinians (Augustinian Hermits), and Carmelites, as well as Trinitarians, Mercedarians, Servites, Minims, Hospitallers of St. John of God, and the Teutonic Order.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/mendicant-Roman-Catholicism

 

 

[ignorantobserver]

Mendicant orders are religious orders of monks and nuns who live off public charity. The oldest ones (Franciscans, Dominicans) have been founded during the High Middle Ages, originally as a kind of countercultural movement in response to the growing wealth of the Benedictine type orders (who typically possessed some land and other assets, and who worked for a living or had "lay brothers" do the work for them). For them, a religious calling means living in poverty, to the point that they weren't even allowed to possess shoes (that has somewhat changed, but they still tend to lead very modest lives). Originally, they were itinerant preachers who relied on strangers for food and shelter. This is why I compare them to some of the IFB mega-families who also expect others to feed them while they follow their religious calling, making them look like they obey the evangelical counsel of poverty (but who conventiently forget the celibacy and obedience part). And whose "return on investment" is much worse, obviously, because the congregations feeding them only get one preacher or missionary per mega-family.

Edited September 22, 2020 by ignorantobserver
style

[LilMissMetaphor]

Claritin is such a perfect shipper combo.  Who came up with it first? It makes me want to invent more fictional couples to fit medicines.  (Prometheus & Zachary = Prozac, Rita & Lincoln = Ritalin, etc...)

[CatMom]

I mean, at least when they air the "all about Justin" episode right before the wedding episode, I might actually learn something. Untill now I was barely aware there was one named Justin. 

[SassyPants]

58 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Both the Duggars and the Bates are more the second model. In Duggar's case, they happen to have a lot of money and they have picked up some skills, but not ones to real make a living at. I don't what the rules and how hard it would be to make Duggar Aviation an actual business of some kind, but as it stands it doesn't seem like the boys could make a lot of money as pilots. I know to work for an airline requires a different license.

The Mediccorps scam definitely fits in with the second model.

Part of the reason families don't go to "Amish" order is a lot of them don't have extra money to set their sons up in trades. The Maxwells and Bontragers are relatively well-off. That JB has the money and yet hasn't set most of his boys in any particular trade is telling. 

Also what does "Mendicant" refer to?

What about a cargo pilot, like for Fed-Ex? I don’t know anything about what is required for that line of work.

[Italiangirl]

It seems the courtship proposal was around or on May 19 since they mention two bdays in the conference call I think Jb said something like talking about bdays yesterday was Lauren's and today is Ben's, so if these two started courting around mid-May I say engagement is imminent. According to Duggar Data, they could be: if average 22 September

if  Slightly late 8 November 

If Late on 26 December.

Then marriage 98 days later and the firstborn between October 4 2021 and April 12, 2022

Wouldn't be somehow perfect if they actually get engaged on Sept 22 and this is why they aired the courtship story that day? 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Italiangirl

[theotherelise]

I mean, they're saying I Love You to each other. Talk about giving away heart pieces! Engagement must be certain at least if it hasn't already happened.

Another huge example that this courtship model doesn't actually preserve any heart pieces at all, just arbitrary physical interactions. 

It reminds me of a scene from George Eliot's Middlemarch where a character (Louisa?) meets who she believes is a dashing gentleman and on the way home is imagining how she'll arrange the furniture in the home after their marriage. But no, casual dating is the real problem, not foisting marriage on teenage children.

[GracieLou Free Duggar]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

What about a cargo pilot, like for Fed-Ex? I don’t know anything about what is required for that line of work.

I don't see that because they might have to carry secular items.

Seriously, they're just lazy.

[nolongerIFBx]

20 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

I have nothing to add that has not been said already. Except that I always found Justin the odd one out in the looks department. He does not look like most of the other boys, at a push I could have said he was the most like Jill, but in the people pictures I can really see Joy, her colouring her mouth and jaw. 

I've always done a double-take when I saw him because he looked so different. But now I'm seeing a resemblance to Josie.

 

[Satan'sFortress]

2 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

Claritin is such a perfect shipper combo.  Who came up with it first? It makes me want to invent more fictional couples to fit medicines.  (Prometheus & Zachary = Prozac, Rita & Lincoln = Ritalin, etc...)

I believe it was me. I've never named a couple before!

18 hours ago, nst said:

there is something icky about this - her seemingly way older and more mature and justin being a child. 

it's not like ben and jessa 

this doesn't look adorable - it looks like wrong

I agree 100%, but I don't quite know why. Maybe if I looked back at comments from early Ben/Jessa, we all thought the same thing then? 

[BeccaGrim]

Is it just me (maybe I missed it) or have we had no congratulations from the Dillards on social media to Justin?  She's been on too. Today she and Sam were going to water things....

[Tangy Bee]

Just saw an older interview clip. Recaps for tonight please. I can't bare to watch. I'll check back after 10.

[becky_m2001]

3 hours ago, Idlewild said:

Do they honestly think we don’t know this is micromanaged to provide some interest in the show? I suppose a few diehard humpers might think this is spontaneous but it’s about as genuine as their ‘quarantining’. 

As a reformed "diehard humper" I can say with certainty that things like this are often ignored. Like when Josh and Anna took the three M's on the roadtrip to Chicago. We knew from pictures that Jana was on the trip too to help manage the kids, but it was one of those things that we pretended not to see. We (I) wanted to believe that it was just a fun family roadtrip and that they didn't need a sister to come along and act as a nanny. It's kind of hard to admit the kind of things I pretended not to see or downright refused to believe. ?

[CrazyMumma]

this is soo crazy!  When I was 18 I had a crush on a cute 16 yr old boy... (it was mutual) soooo glad both sets of parents were like thats cute be friends... My Mum was very muchly like... Honey, he's 16... his crush wont last long.

[Giraffe]

5 minutes ago, CrazyMumma said:

this is soo crazy!  When I was 18 I had a crush on a cute 16 yr old boy... (it was mutual) soooo glad both sets of parents were like thats cute be friends... My Mum was very muchly like... Honey, he's 16... his crush wont last long.

This is what’s sad about it. How many of us are forever grateful we didn’t marry the person/people we dated as teenagers?!

[front hugs > duggs]

I did date someone about 20 months younger than me at that age (I was a senior, he was a sophomore). We broke up when I went away to college because that made sense for us. I don't regret that relationship, it was a great learning experience for me! I'm SO glad we aren't married today - FB shows he hasn't seemed to have gotten a haircut in months/years (pre-covid) and that just ain't my thing. ?