Dillards 86: It's a Long Way to Tipperary

[Bobology]

9 hours ago, Letgo said:

I wonder how JB explains the situation to the younger kids still at home? He's kind of stuck since a woman is supposed to follow her husband. Jill does seem to be doing that even though it isn't her father's wish. Poor JB-the headship concept is coming back to bite him!

I would be very interested to know this, too. Maybe it will eventually be in Jennifer's future book (one can always hope.)

[Idlewild]

Derick has been less belligerent on twitter in recent months and only seems to use SM to promote their blog or YouTube. This tells me he has probably got a job offer and is trying not to screw it up. 
I think they are put off having another baby for practical and financial reasons . A newborn in the house with 2 other small children is a nightmare scenario when studying for exams and Jill cannot just escape to her parents or have a sister come over and help out given the JB disapproval.

Both Jill’s births were high intervention and probably took a while to recover physically. They must fear she may need a c section and hospital stay again . Not only would this present the practical problems of caring for the boys while Jill recovers but there’s no JB cash for the bills. They must be living off SM revenue and DD’s part time work. I dare say if DD gets a decent job, once he qualifies for health insurance they’ll think about more children. 

[becky_m2001]

31 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

Derick has been less belligerent on twitter in recent months and only seems to use SM to promote their blog or YouTube. This tells me he has probably got a job offer and is trying not to screw it up. 
I think they are put off having another baby for practical and financial reasons . A newborn in the house with 2 other small children is a nightmare scenario when studying for exams and Jill cannot just escape to her parents or have a sister come over and help out given the JB disapproval.

Both Jill’s births were high intervention and probably took a while to recover physically. They must fear she may need a c section and hospital stay again . Not only would this present the practical problems of caring for the boys while Jill recovers but there’s no JB cash for the bills. They must be living off SM revenue and DD’s part time work. I dare say if DD gets a decent job, once he qualifies for health insurance they’ll think about more children. 

Jill said that they'd be addressing the question of future children in one of their upcoming YouTube Q&A videos.

[JDuggs]

47 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

I'm a horrible cynic, so my take on all of this is, naturally, somewhat cynical.

I don't think we can lose sight of the fact that Jill was trained up her entire life to accept her future husband as her headship.  I really hope these changes are something that she is personally embracing and not just things she's doing because Derick tells her she should.  Because that's not true growth; that's just another asshole telling you how to live your life. 

I, on the other hand, give people WAY too much credit that they are good people trying to do the right thing.

Derick has never seemed to be into the totally controlling headship concept. I assume that he considers himself the provider, protector and spiritual leader of their family, but he doesn’t want to control every aspect of Jill’s life. I don’t think he’s trying to manipulate Jill into needling JB. I think he’s encouraging Jill to make decisions about her clothing, hair and jewelry on her own terms, not his. Bigger issues, like alcohol, I think they are discussing and coming to decisions without pressuring each other to both make the same personal decision. On Israel’s education, I think the lawyer in Derick has been building his case over the last few years that public school would be the best decision and Jill agreed. I do recall at some point Derick praising Jill’s efforts at her preschool work with Israel.

Jill seems to need validation. Instead of getting it from her parents and siblings, she is getting it from her husband, her mother in law, her cousin, her friends and from social media and the public. She is feeling more comfortable that the decisions she is making do not make her a bad Christian.

 I still feel that Derick wants to work as a lawyer to push his views on abortion and LGBTQ issues, but I hope I’m wrong.

[JenniferJuniper]

11 minutes ago, JDuggs said:

Derick has never seemed to be into the totally controlling headship concept. I assume that he considers himself the provider, protector and spiritual leader of their family, but he doesn’t want to control every aspect of Jill’s life. I don’t think he’s trying to manipulate Jill into needling JB. I think he’s encouraging Jill to make decisions about her clothing, hair and jewelry on her own terms, not his. Bigger issues, like alcohol, I think they are discussing and coming to decisions without pressuring each other to both make the same personal decision. On Israel’s education, I think the lawyer in Derick has been building his case over the last few years that public school would be the best decision and Jill agreed. I do recall at some point Derick praising Jill’s efforts at her preschool work with Israel.

I never had any doubt Derick's kids would go to public school and I'm sure he's planning on them going to college.  It's what he did, what he knows, and there is no way the Duggar way was going to color his perspective of how things should be for his kids. Even if Jill truly wanted to homeschool, Derick knows full well how under-educated she is and wants better for his sons. 

I'm pleased that he's not falling in line with the Duggars, but I still think he's a creep. He's shown his ass too many times.  But I'd love to know exactly how he fooled JB.

[metheglyn]

1 hour ago, Italiangirl said:

This is Derick last year right? And then? I mean he could take the exam just after the last day of school? Like here for high school (I don't know if this is a thing in the Us sorry) or he has to wait for a national date? And after that when does he know the results? I guess that if you pass it with a good vote and have gone to a good school then you could start working immediately, so he has kinda set date for when he will start working right? 

I'm not a lawyer but from my understanding bar exams are done on a state-by-state basis, with some exams allowing lawyers who pass to also qualify to practice in other states as well.

If Derick finishes law school in May/June, the earliest Arkansas bar exam he could take is the July 27-28 2021 exam. If he takes it and passes, all good. If he takes it and fails (not an uncommon event first for first time takers, especially since law school does *not* teach to the test), the next exam is late February of 2022.  Many law school graduates choose to take a "bar review" course that last for a significant chunk of the period between graduation and the bar exam that actually does offer bar exam prep, but these courses are not part of law school and must be independently funded. 

COVID has had an impact on different states' procedures for allowing new lawyers to practice, with Arkansas allowing graduates who couldn't sit the exam this past summer to temporarily work in a limited capacity under an experienced attorney, but it should still work out that he does indeed have to take the bar eventually to be a fully-fledged lawyer.

 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

I didn't mean to imply that she isn't happy not to have more infants at the moment or HAS so have a complicating reason why not, just thinking about she  might have gotten started on the potential path to where she is now.  Jill's an adult woman and seems to have more agency than any of the other women in the Duggar borg at this time, and she seems pretty happy.  There had to be some step they decided to take and she realized she was able to substantially change her lifestyle and yet still remain a Christian that opened the door to her other changes.  Maybe it really was just going off the show that did it.

Purely speculation on my part, but active pregnancy prevention seems like a logical big step that any supportive spouse would encourage her to take if she was advised not to get pregnant again for a while or if she mentally/emotionally needed a break.  I imagine they'll have another round of kids once Derick is working and the boys are in school, allowing her to be more involved with the second set as well.  Until she explicitly says one way or another which she does not owe anyone, speculation is all there is.

[Pleiades_06]

6 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

I'm no Jill fan, etc, standard disclaimer, I barely even post in Duggar threads but really I think sometimes that she'd have to strip naked and lie in the center of a highway taking selfies before some people would admit that was evidence that she might be thinking about changing.  

I know what you mean-but Derick/Jazz thing was so terrible that I’m very, very wary. And this might get me downvotes, but here goes: I think some posters here are taking superficial baby steps and reading more into them than they deserve. And then the leg humping starts and drives me nuts.

It’s helpful to have people who have left the movement jump on here as explain how she’s making progress-or not. Thank you to those people.

Edited September 20, 2020 by Pleiades_06
Grammar

[Melissa1977]

3 hours ago, JenniferJuniper said:

I'm a horrible cynic, so my take on all of this is, naturally, somewhat cynical.

Derick hates Jim Bob.  He probably has no use for Michelle either, but he really hates Jim Bob.  I'm sure there are a myriad of reasons for this, and I'd probably agree with all of those reasons.  If I can put myself in Derick's shoes, though, I'd be particularly furious over how Jill and her sisters were treated by their parents after the molestation story broke. 

Aside from that eventual tell-all, what's the best way to exact revenge on JB right now?  Short of them becoming Wiccans, I can't think of anything much better than People magazine running an article about Jilly Muffin Drinking Booze.

I don't think we can lose sight of the fact that Jill was trained up her entire life to accept her future husband as her headship.  I really hope these changes are something that she is personally embracing and not just things she's doing because Derick tells her she should.  Because that's not true growth; that's just another asshole telling you how to live your life. 

So Derick encourages Jill to drink alcohol and post it, just to make JB angry? Very twisted IMO. I think that if they drink alcohol is because they both enjoy it. It's difficult to believe Derick forcing Jill to drink alcohol and to post about it if she wouldn't like it. Jill had drank before with Amy, so it's something she does from time to time.

Yes, Jill is a follower and if she had marry a Bontrager (just an example) she would be a happy farmer with 7 kids. But even followers can discover new pleasures and develop their own taste. Derick may have told her "try to wear jeans, try the pina colada", but once she obeyed the first time, if she got used to the pants/drinks/ whatever is because that really pleased her. 

What I mean is that even submissive people can be themselves. And that Jill, after her therapy, may stop in a bar, enjoy a drink and post it in IG like many young women do. To disturb JB? To look trendy? For no reason? Who knows. But of it is for making JB feel bad, why can't it be her own idea? She truly has changed in a few years. 

[OrchidBlossom]

On 9/19/2020 at 5:12 PM, just_ordinary said:

? disagree (careful I wrote a lengthy statement. I didn’t think I was that passionate about water...).

Carbonated water is life. I can only stomach tab water for drinking water (obviously I use it for cooking or tea)  when I have the worst hangover ever. Otherwise it just tastes stale. Like champagne from yesterday compared to a freshly opened bottle. 
I was shocked when I learned that many other countries don’t have 10+ options in water brands (with the zero, medium, high carbonated option each). Our tabwater is actually very good quality but we as a nation are definitely carbonated. The carbon stimulates a slightly sour taste that is probably not everyone’s liking. But our wells are already slightly carbonated by nature. The carbon acts bacteriostatic but the effect isn’t as important as tab water is also fine. That was more important in the 19th/early 20th century. So we buy water in shops and carry it home. Some people even by zero carbonated water and bring it home. If your plumbing is good that’s crazy. In general this all must seem very strange for others. 
At least you can avoid it, because you can always get a zero or tab water. It much harder the other way round.

Quick question: do you mean tap water? I’m frantically googling tab water to figure out if it’s some new brand (a la smart water, life water, etc) that I don’t know about? 

[louisa05]

1 hour ago, Pleiades_06 said:

I know what you mean-but Derick/Jazz thing was so terrible that I’m very, very wary. And this might get me downvotes, but here goes: I think some posters here are taking superficial baby steps and reading more into them than they deserve. And then the leg humping starts and drives me nuts.

It’s helpful to have people who have left the movement jump on here as explain how she’s making progress-or not. Thank you to those people.

In my experience, even those things that seem small to the outside world are huge in evangelical/fundamentalist world. Everything is a matter of right and wrong. Everything you do must be decided through the lens of “is it biblical?” or (perhaps put clearer for outsiders) “can I do this and still be right with God?”. Whether to wear pants or skirts or shorts, or sleeveless or lower cut tops seems like a practical or comfort decision that has no long term or spiritual implications for non-religious or mainstream Christians. In that world, those are major questions for women with huge spiritual implications. It took a friend of mine over a year, when she was beginning to move away from her parents’ teachings to decide if she could wear a scoop neck top or shorts. She still wrestled with it as a spiritual issue and had to find a way to justify it for herself with the Bible. 
 

Alcohol is a major step. Huge. If you’ve never sat through sermons about the evils of alcohol, how one sip could make you an alcoholic and forever a sinner lost to God and how Jesus changed water into fresh grape juice...well, I can see how it seems like just choosing or not choosing a beverage. The textbooks I taught from at Christian school still pushed the ideas of the prohibition movement (A Beka Books from Pensacola Christian College). Teachers could be fired for drinking alcohol and early on we were told even going in a restaurant, to a wedding, etc...where alcohol was served to other people could get you fired. They gave up on that as it eliminated too many restaurants. In the last decade or so, I know some younger evangelicals have moved toward accepting moderate drinking. There’s much handwringing about that, though and even those who do go through a lot of soul searching and mental gymnastics and occasionally one will dramatically give it up again with much drama.  (The evangelical writer Sarah Bessey—whose husband I taught at the Christian school—wrote a very dramatic spirituality invoking  blog post several years ago about giving up wine and dramatic comments about the spirituality of drinking or not followed).  
 

Jill absolutely is making progress. I saw the same friend mentioned above go through this. Clothing, casual drinking, friends outside their church, were the early steps. Eighteen years ago, that woman and her husband were explaining the evils of gay marriage to me and praying for my soul because I didn’t think legalizing it would damage anyone’s straight marriage.  Now they go to Pride parades, call themselves agnostic, actively campaign for far left Democrats and are a little bothered that their biologically female children identify as female. 
 

 

[purple_summer]

15 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

If you’ve never sat through sermons about the evils of alcohol, how one sip could make you an alcoholic and forever a sinner lost to God

Ah, the old standby “you could walk out of this church and get hit by a car/shot by some criminal, *insert token death here* and go to hell TONIGHT” altar call. 
 

Related-ish story: I was in elementary school when Columbine happened. That year’s spring revival compared the kids hiding under tables in the library to Jesus praying in the garden of Gethsemane. He didn’t want to die, he was scared, but he knew it was God’s will and he didn’t have a choice. So kids, when a shooter comes into your school and asks if you believe in God, you better not say no to save yourself. What would Jesus do? 
 

it’s been 21 years and I’m still unpacking that one. I’m sure Jill has heard a million versions of this story, especially if she wanted to be a missionary. Voice of the martyrs is full of trauma porn like this. 

[AussieKrissy]

40 minutes ago, purple_summer said:

Ah, the old standby “you could walk out of this church and get hit by a car/shot by some criminal, *insert token death here* and go to hell TONIGHT” altar call. 
 

Related-ish story: I was in elementary school when Columbine happened. That year’s spring revival compared the kids hiding under tables in the library to Jesus praying in the garden of Gethsemane. He didn’t want to die, he was scared, but he knew it was God’s will and he didn’t have a choice. So kids, when a shooter comes into your school and asks if you believe in God, you better not say no to save yourself. What would Jesus do? 
 

it’s been 21 years and I’m still unpacking that one. I’m sure Jill has heard a million versions of this story, especially if she wanted to be a missionary. Voice of the martyrs is full of trauma porn like this. 

I would ducking shoot the person who put that in my kids head!!!! Big hugs to you. I would tell my kid that Jesus gave you free will and wants you to live. You do whatever you have to, to get yourself out safe. If Jesus has a problem with that then maybe we will be Buddhist. 

[louisa05]

50 minutes ago, purple_summer said:

Ah, the old standby “you could walk out of this church and get hit by a car/shot by some criminal, *insert token death here* and go to hell TONIGHT” altar call. 
 

Related-ish story: I was in elementary school when Columbine happened. That year’s spring revival compared the kids hiding under tables in the library to Jesus praying in the garden of Gethsemane. He didn’t want to die, he was scared, but he knew it was God’s will and he didn’t have a choice. So kids, when a shooter comes into your school and asks if you believe in God, you better not say no to save yourself. What would Jesus do? 
 

it’s been 21 years and I’m still unpacking that one. I’m sure Jill has heard a million versions of this story, especially if she wanted to be a missionary. Voice of the martyrs is full of trauma porn like this. 

Yep. “Imagine if you were at that (bar, restaurant, party, etc...) and decided one drink of alcohol was okay and you walked out the door and...”.  
 

My personal favorite was the fresh grape juice sermon at Christian school chapel. Jesus changed the water into fresh grape juice and Jews in his time loved really fresh grape juice which is why it kept the party going.  We would all really love really fresh grape juice too if we had it.  It’s the best thing ever.  And saying it was actually wine “mocks God” as does drinking wine or any alcohol. God mockers are immediately punished (perhaps you’ll be hit by a bus when you leave the restaurant where you had the alcohol).  
I once shared this one with an old Irish Catholic priest who was a close family friend. I never heard a priest laugh so hard.  

[Maggie Mae]

7 hours ago, JenniferJuniper said:

 I can't think of anything much better than People magazine running an article about Jilly Muffin Drinking Booze.

This really puts into perspective what a trash magazine People is - another headline could be "Adult Woman Does Normal, Age Appropriate Thing One Time." But since it's a Duggar, it actually goes to print. 

 

7 hours ago, JenniferJuniper said:

 Because that's not true growth; that's just another asshole telling you how to live your life. 

I do think she's making these changes for herself. Once she figured out that she liked and respected Derrick, and Derrick when to public school, and if public school was so bad how come Derrick is so great, the walls came crumbling down. Not to mention Jill's own personality - she's the one who was interested in learning things like spanish, trying new foods, etc. And her family made fun of her for it, ON TV. So I'm sure at some point she realized that she didn't have the greatest education. I worry that she might have been embarrassed at some point by Derrick, or one of his friends or family. And if Derrick is encouraging her to read books and learn things for the sake of learning, at some point it's just going to click. I'm sure the Counting On Fiasco helped. 

Or someone could have asked Derrick and Jill how much they made for the appearances on TV, and they were both embarrassed when they found out that they should have been paid. 

I would think that every single Duggar needs a therapist. That was not a normal way to grow up. First with the buddy system, the crippling poverty in the tiny houses, the matching clothes, then the TV show, the semi-arranged marriages, the sex-pest older brother, the complete and total disregard for education and parents who don't think of kids as individual humans with emotions. 

 

[janey]

Before I keep reading - Lauren is straight up a white claw girl in the non-fundie AU. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

21 minutes ago, janey said:

Before I keep reading - Lauren is straight up a white claw girl in the non-fundie AU. 

What does this mean?

[janey]

8 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

What does this mean?

Earlier in the thread there was discussion of what alcohol matched personalities if they chose to imbibe. Lauren strikes me as a White Claw person. 

[purple_summer]

2 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

I would ducking shoot the person who put that in my kids head!!!! Big hugs to you. I would tell my kid that Jesus gave you free will and wants you to live. You do whatever you have to, to get yourself out safe. If Jesus has a problem with that then maybe we will be Buddhist. 

The inverse also applied. If you (as a parent) were forced to watch your child be tortured/killed or renounce Christ you better not renounce. Kids, don’t expect you parents to save you because you’re both going to hell! 

There is no bottom or shame with these people. 

[hand holder]

3 hours ago, purple_summer said:

Ah, the old standby “you could walk out of this church and get hit by a car/shot by some criminal, *insert token death here* and go to hell TONIGHT” altar call. 
 

Related-ish story: I was in elementary school when Columbine happened. That year’s spring revival compared the kids hiding under tables in the library to Jesus praying in the garden of Gethsemane. He didn’t want to die, he was scared, but he knew it was God’s will and he didn’t have a choice. So kids, when a shooter comes into your school and asks if you believe in God, you better not say no to save yourself. What would Jesus do? 
 

it’s been 21 years and I’m still unpacking that one. I’m sure Jill has heard a million versions of this story, especially if she wanted to be a missionary. Voice of the martyrs is full of trauma porn like this. 

I was taught this, too and I just want to send you lots of love and internet hugs. It was awful that kids have ever been taught that and I am sure they still are, sadly. 

[farmerannie]

I will get a lot of hate from you guys for saying this but I grew up very conservative almost fundie. It took a very long time for me to break free of the hate and the beliefs. The small steps to matter. Those are the small moments of breaking free. If everyone thinks that you are incapable of changes you will never change, and the change is hard and soul sucking. It breaks every last piece of you until there is nothing left. Give them a chance and try not being as judgemental as you think they are. 

[Maggie Mae]

47 minutes ago, purple_summer said:

The inverse also applied. If you (as a parent) were forced to watch your child be tortured/killed or renounce Christ you better not renounce. Kids, don’t expect you parents to save you because you’re both going to hell! 

How is that even a thing that needs to be worried about in the United States? Are there groups of bandits wandering around, torturing people with the intent to get them to change their religious beliefs?

 

[nausicaa]

13 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

I'm no Jill fan, etc, standard disclaimer, I barely even post in Duggar threads but really I think sometimes that she'd have to strip naked and lie in the center of a highway taking selfies before some people would admit that was evidence that she might be thinking about changing.  

I mean...did Jill only strip naked? If she really wanted to convince us she's changed her ways, she would have had "My Body, My Choice" scrawled across her abdomen in those highway selfies.

And is she shaving down there? Ugh, totally still brainwashed by Derrick and the patriarchy. 

Plus the nude selfies were taken midday when traffic is light. I'll believe these "baby steps" when I see some rush hour highway vaj pics, mmmkay?

[Beyganengvall]

5 hours ago, louisa05 said:

In my experience, even those things that seem small to the outside world are huge in evangelical/fundamentalist world. Everything is a matter of right and wrong. Everything you do must be decided through the lens of “is it biblical?” or (perhaps put clearer for outsiders) “can I do this and still be right with God?”. Whether to wear pants or skirts or shorts, or sleeveless or lower cut tops seems like a practical or comfort decision that has no long term or spiritual implications for non-religious or mainstream Christians. In that world, those are major questions for women with huge spiritual implications. It took a friend of mine over a year, when she was beginning to move away from her parents’ teachings to decide if she could wear a scoop neck top or shorts. She still wrestled with it as a spiritual issue and had to find a way to justify it for herself with the Bible. 
 

Alcohol is a major step. Huge. If you’ve never sat through sermons about the evils of alcohol, how one sip could make you an alcoholic and forever a sinner lost to God and how Jesus changed water into fresh grape juice...well, I can see how it seems like just choosing or not choosing a beverage. The textbooks I taught from at Christian school still pushed the ideas of the prohibition movement (A Beka Books from Pensacola Christian College). Teachers could be fired for drinking alcohol and early on we were told even going in a restaurant, to a wedding, etc...where alcohol was served to other people could get you fired. They gave up on that as it eliminated too many restaurants. In the last decade or so, I know some younger evangelicals have moved toward accepting moderate drinking. There’s much handwringing about that, though and even those who do go through a lot of soul searching and mental gymnastics and occasionally one will dramatically give it up again with much drama.  (The evangelical writer Sarah Bessey—whose husband I taught at the Christian school—wrote a very dramatic spirituality invoking  blog post several years ago about giving up wine and dramatic comments about the spirituality of drinking or not followed).  
 

Jill absolutely is making progress. I saw the same friend mentioned above go through this. Clothing, casual drinking, friends outside their church, were the early steps. Eighteen years ago, that woman and her husband were explaining the evils of gay marriage to me and praying for my soul because I didn’t think legalizing it would damage anyone’s straight marriage.  Now they go to Pride parades, call themselves agnostic, actively campaign for far left Democrats and are a little bothered that their biologically female children identify as female. 
 

 

Umm...I hope you’re exaggerating, because that’s really not cool. How is that any different from a parent who is “bothered” by their child being trans?

[AussieKrissy]

2 hours ago, purple_summer said:

The inverse also applied. If you (as a parent) were forced to watch your child be tortured/killed or renounce Christ you better not renounce. Kids, don’t expect you parents to save you because you’re both going to hell! 

There is no bottom or shame with these people. 

Yeah fuck that. Hell it is. This chubby don’t like stairs anyway, I’ll take the highway... 

I’m curious, and have been thinking. Do people think that the scandals of the molestation and Ashley Madison breaking actually in someway helped free Jill?  Shake off the secrets and address them. Be able to see things in a light outside of her family’s bubble of “forgiveness”. 
Of course I don’t condone the victims being outed. But I’m looking for a long term upside to it.