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samurai_sarah

Dillards 86: It's a Long Way to Tipperary

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viii
52 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I think the support and use of both BC and public education are HUGE divergences from JB’s and Gothard’s tenets. 
 

For Jill these are major changes and adjustments.

Oh definitely. I don't want to downplay any of Jill's changes, because they have come at a huge cost to her and I know how hard it must have been for her. I think it's a step in the right direction and they're doing well. I just know that at the end of the day, they're still fundie-lite, and they still have some concerning beliefs. 

39 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

Make no mistake the siblings are watching closely even if they don't realize it.  JB and J'chelle are showing their children at home exactly what they can expect: submit to the parental control / approval, or ditch it for a happier life.   Some will not want to risk Mommy and Daddy's disapproval but there will be others who are over it and decide they spent enough of their lives living under their parents' thumb.   

Exactly - these younger kids are watching allllllll their older siblings and it'll be real interesting to see who follows whose example. 

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breakfree
14 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I doubt her siblings see it like this. It might help for them to know that Jill choses to live differently and God hasn't punished her, but I don't know if they realize that. I would love it if Jill becomes an inspiration to others leaving fundementalism/the parents behind, but it hasn't happen. 

I'm sure they think God has punished her. 2 csections! A failed vbac! Only two kids!

 

You have to understand they genuinely think her worth is determined by this.

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libgirl2
On 10/13/2020 at 9:29 PM, WiseGirl said:

Is it bad that the first thing I think of when I read/see/hear paleontologist is Ross from Friends? 

Me too. 

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lexiloumarie
7 hours ago, Oh_Dear! said:

Jill posted in her stories a shopping trip with Jessa and Joy and all the kids (except Israel). Only ones wearing masks are Jill and Sam. Seems like another departure from her family.

I noticed that too. They've been fairly smart sounding compared to her family this whole time. 

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slp

And in AR masks are mandated inside so they are breaking the law if they were indoors in a public place

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purple_summer
16 hours ago, Denim Jumper said:

My poor husband was raised fundie, and that particular plot hole was rationalized two ways:

1. The creation stories are so similar because God made it that way to prepare people’s hearts for the Gospel. As in, a prospective ancient world convert would be all like “Eh, we got the same creation story, so I guess I can seamlessly transition to this completely foreign and counterculture religion.”

2. Other cultures stole the Biblical creation account and rewrote it to deceive potential converts away from accepting the Gospel. 
 

Serendipitously, I have been a huge mythology nerd since I was a child, so it was sad but endearing watching him grapple with the new realization that the evangelical Christian arguments simply don’t pass muster, for multiple evidence-based reasons. He just about cried when I explained the hows and whys of the “Big Bang Theory” being essentially a  science-based creation story. 

My personal rationale is that the whole world they knew flooded. I believe other groups/civilizations from that era and area have similar flood stories. The part of the world they knew probably did flood, but they’d have no way of knowing that it was dry on another continent. All about perspective 

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Glasgowghirl

I remember the episode of the show where they visited the creation science museum and all the older children were talking about the world only being 6,000 years old, some of them to me by their tone didn't seem all that emphusiastic about saying it and I always wondered do they actually believe it all that or are just saying it because that is what Jim Bob and Michelle taught them. As they got older some of them seemed to be more and more entrenched in what they were taught so even if they did have some doubts about creation, I think they don't. 

I found Michelle so irritating on an episode where someone is explaining fossils and carbon dating to them and in a talking head she just dismissed it all and made out those scientists were just making up stuff. I'm glad Israel is getting to experience public school and opportunities his mum and his aunts and uncles didn't get. 

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Zebedee

@Glasgowghirl - I couldn't watch that episode all the way through, my computer was in SEVERE danger. I hate the way Fundies basically behave as if they're experts on everything. They are completely uneducated for the most part - the Duggars (inc. parents) especially so. But no, they're super-special, and experts in cosmology and associated maths (lol-ing my arse off at this. I WAS an astrophysicist for years, and I know that the percentage of the tiny percentage of people who specialize in astro & mathphys who actually understand all of the theory and maths is about 2%. After about 9 years of post-A level education. But knowing that bankruptcy doesn't mean going to the bank means that they are perfectly qualified to not only have an opinion, but state it as fact. Because Bible. So, 6000 years it is then).
 

They're also experts in all forms of medicine, and since they've had children, they are especially expert in midwifery and NICU/PICU medicine; they're also expert virologists and epidemiologists - all with SOTDRT IBLP workbooks. And despite having no formal essay writing/analysis/history/theology training, they have the arrogance to claim they "homeschool" it. Yeah, if multiple choice questions are all you do, and you have an answer key, is teaching Eng. Lit., or history, fine. Plus, it has the advantage of involving no nuance whatsoever, makes perfect training for incurious, ignorant adults, who never venture out of their bubble, or listen to, you know, actual experts - yet who have the arrogance to assume they know better. 

Then, they belittle anyone who has any relevant experience & education as if that's meaningless. Jed!'s whole campaign is relying on there being enough bigoted morons to vote for him, I can guarantee that if he stood with the same platform and "experience" but as a Democrat, those idiots wouldn't vote for him as he has the wrong letter after his name. Of course, no Dems would vote for him either! But he's such an ignorant arse that he just assumes he knows everything, and that because he "understands" life, the Universe and Everything,  he's got a chance in hell (though it is 2020. I will scream if he wins.) of winning and being able to do the job. I mean, to have the gall to talk about education when you've only been "homeschooled" from booklets, and are one of the most uneducated people around, is just shocking. 

Sorry for the rant, but the arrogance of these people... it's bad enough that they consider themselves to be the paragons of virtue, but that they consider everyone else to be so dishonest, ignorant and incompetent just PISSES ME OFF!

 

ETA yay, I'm now a doula for destiny. I'll start offering my totally uninformed, uneducated views about childbirth now. I mean, I'm as qualified as they are to claim I know it all!

Edited by Zebedee
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Freejin

This might be a conspiracy theory of the highest order, but didn’t Derick reach out to JB to be his prayer partner before getting involved with Jill? Could it be that he had the goal of rescuing a Duggar girl and infiltrated in that way?

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justmy2cents
17 minutes ago, Zebedee said:

@Glasgowghirl - I couldn't watch that episode all the way through, my computer was in SEVERE danger. I hate the way Fundies basically behave as if they're experts on everything. They are completely uneducated for the most part - the Duggars (inc. parents) especially so. But no, they're super-special, and experts in cosmology and associated maths (lol-ing my arse off at this. I WAS an astrophysicist for years, and I know that the percentage of the tiny percentage of people who specialize in astro & mathphys who actually understand all of the theory and maths is about 2%. After about 9 years of post-A level education. But knowing that bankruptcy doesn't mean going to the bank means that they are perfectly qualified to not only have an opinion, but state it as fact. Because Bible. So, 6000 years it is then).
 

They're also experts in all forms of medicine, and since they've had children, they are especially expert in midwifery and NICU/PICU medicine; they're also expert virologists and epidemiologists - all with SOTDRT IBLP workbooks. And despite having no formal essay writing/analysis/history/theology training, they have the arrogance to claim they "homeschool" it. Yeah, if multiple choice questions are all you do, and you have an answer key, is teaching Eng. Lit., or history, fine. Plus, it has the advantage of involving no nuance whatsoever, makes perfect training for incurious, ignorant adults, who never venture out of their bubble, or listen to, you know, actual experts - yet who have the arrogance to assume they know better. 

Then, they belittle anyone who has any relevant experience & education as if that's meaningless. Jed!'s whole campaign is relying on there being enough bigoted morons to vote for him, I can guarantee that if he stood with the same platform and "experience" but as a Democrat, those idiots wouldn't vote for him as he has the wrong letter after his name. Of course, no Dems would vote for him either! But he's such an ignorant arse that he just assumes he knows everything, and that because he "understands" life, the Universe and Everything,  he's got a chance in hell (though it is 2020. I will scream if he wins.) of winning and being able to do the job. I mean, to have the gall to talk about education when you've only been "homeschooled" from booklets, and are one of the most uneducated people around, is just shocking. 

Sorry for the rant, but the arrogance of these people... it's bad enough that they consider themselves to be the paragons of virtue, but that they consider everyone else to be so dishonest, ignorant and incompetent just PISSES ME OFF!

 

ETA yay, I'm now a doula for destiny. I'll start offering my totally uninformed, uneducated views about childbirth now. I mean, I'm as qualified as they are to claim I know it all!

We could be talking about Trump here. This is why he appeals to them. Cut from the same cloth. 

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allthegoodnamesrgone
10 minutes ago, Freejin said:

This might be a conspiracy theory of the highest order, but didn’t Derick reach out to JB to be his prayer partner before getting involved with Jill? Could it be that he had the goal of rescuing a Duggar girl and infiltrated in that way?

Derick did reach out to JB to be a prayer partner, but I don't think it was to "save" a Duggar girl, I think he may have been like Jeremy looking for the perfect stepford wife whom he could mold into what he wanted.  Only Jill wasn't capable of becoming the perfect vagabond, danger America living missioncationer. So he had to regroup, grow up and change plans, I don't think this is the life he planned but he doesn't' seem to mind living it. 

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Melissa1977
1 hour ago, Freejin said:

This might be a conspiracy theory of the highest order, but didn’t Derick reach out to JB to be his prayer partner before getting involved with Jill? Could it be that he had the goal of rescuing a Duggar girl and infiltrated in that way?

No way. He was himself who wanted to be rescued, looking for an extra-religious family to be friend with. He was mourning his father, was young and felt lost. He might have been looking for a fundie wife, too, but if it was the case, he wanted a deep-fundie life, not the opposite.

Later, a cocktail of good and bad experiences, trips, deep thinking, therapy etc has made them to change together. But it was not their intention.

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breakfree
15 hours ago, lexiloumarie said:

I noticed that too. They've been fairly smart sounding compared to her family this whole time. 

I'm sorry but I literally laughed out loud at this. While true, smart sounding compared to her family is such a low bar that my three year old could pass it some days.

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HeartsAFundie
57 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

No way. He was himself who wanted to be rescued, looking for an extra-religious family to be friend with. He was mourning his father, was young and felt lost. He might have been looking for a fundie wife, too, but if it was the case, he wanted a deep-fundie life, not the opposite.

Later, a cocktail of good and bad experiences, trips, deep thinking, therapy etc has made them to change together. But it was not their intention.

Like Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones so succinctly put it:  "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need".  Describes Jill and Derick's situation to a tee.  

 

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Idlewild

I’ve said it before but out of all the fundie father figures that Derick ( a so called missionary so presumably had contact with a lot of like minded people through church) what attracted Derick to millionaire Jim Bob Duggar🤔

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wendy-sparkles
36 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

I’ve said it before but out of all the fundie father figures that Derick ( a so called missionary so presumably had contact with a lot of like minded people through church) what attracted Derick to millionaire Jim Bob Duggar🤔

I do think you're right, that on a cynical level he might've been hoping for some sponsorship of his mission. I don't think that means the other stuff wasn't genuine though - on their wedding episode they talk about leaving the amount of children up to god (Jill jokes that that they might beat her parents iirc) . Derick very much seemed like someone who simply burrowed into his faith when things in his life got rough. I think both can be true, and that the faith stuff was the most significant, but in the back of his mind he was probably thinking what a great bonus JB's financial support would be.

also, marrying someone to 'rescue' them is a pretty enormous risk - what if they don't want to be rescued? none of the adults appear to think they're living in a cult or that anything's wrong (except maybe Josh 🤮 who was probably done with two kids and is now as trapped in JB's orbit as any of the women). and why would you pick jill to rescue if you did, who was the goody two shoes, jim bob's favourite? FJ did not like Jill back then, she absolutely would have been the last person anyone bet on to leave. imagine if you married someone and they turned around and said, oh, I don't love you, I just wanted to get you away from your family. like, wtf.

I think Jill and Derick got a covenant marriage also, which seems like a terrible choice if he had any ulterior motive other than being with Jill for the rest of their lives.

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justmy2cents

From what I recall, Derick went to the TTH with a church group and met JB after which he asked JB to be a prayer partner. After talking on the phone a few months it was JB who suggested Derick speak to Jill because of Jill’s interest in ministry. 
Love how that set up worked out for JB.

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wendy-sparkles
8 minutes ago, justmy2cents said:

From what I recall, Derick went to the TTH with a church group and met JB after which he asked JB to be a prayer partner. After talking on the phone a few months it was JB who suggested Derick speak to Jill because of Jill’s interest in ministry. 
Love how that set up worked out for JB.

Yeah, they were definitely a JIm Bob set up. It probably makes him even more mad about the situation - at least if eg. Jinger and Jeremy left, be could be like, I never trusted that Italian upstart anyway.

(No offense to any italians lol, I also have some italian diaspora in me)

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Grace

You also have to remember that this isn't a huge area. To most people around here the Duggars aren't an abstract tv family....they're neighbors. Probably almost everyone around here has a friend of a friend of a family member. It isn't that odd for a young man to seek out a mentor from their own community.

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SassyPants
27 minutes ago, wendy-sparkles said:

I do think you're right, that on a cynical level he might've been hoping for some sponsorship of his mission. I don't think that means the other stuff wasn't genuine though - on their wedding episode they talk about leaving the amount of children up to god (Jill jokes that that they might beat her parents iirc) . Derick very much seemed like someone who simply burrowed into his faith when things in his life got rough. I think both can be true, and that the faith stuff was the most significant, but in the back of his mind he was probably thinking what a great bonus JB's financial support would be.

also, marrying someone to 'rescue' them is a pretty enormous risk - what if they don't want to be rescued? none of the adults appear to think they're living in a cult or that anything's wrong (except maybe Josh 🤮 who was probably done with two kids and is now as trapped in JB's orbit as any of the women). and why would you pick jill to rescue if you did, who was the goody two shoes, jim bob's favourite? FJ did not like Jill back then, she absolutely would have been the last person anyone bet on to leave. imagine if you married someone and they turned around and said, oh, I don't love you, I just wanted to get you away from your family. like, wtf.

I think Jill and Derick got a covenant marriage also, which seems like a terrible choice if he had any ulterior motive other than being with Jill for the rest of their lives.

I agree with this. I think the primary reason that he approached JB was for money towards his mission (Yes, I know that he had sung Christmas carols at TTH one time too, which was prior to the mission trip). I assumed that the director of the mission trip gave the participants the names of individuals who might be willing to give a financial contribution to the mission trip, and DD chose JB. Why would JB give money to this cause? To Increase conversions of heathens to his brand of Christianity, and for the tax write off. I don’t think there was anything more sinister than money needed for a post college graduation mission trip, cloaked in the guise of a Prayer Partner. And, I’m sure DD and JB did pray by Skype and that is where Jill actually met DD.

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louisa05
1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

I agree with this. I think the primary reason that he approached JB was for money towards his mission (Yes, I know that he had sung Christmas carols at TTH one time too, which was prior to the mission trip). I assumed that the director of the mission trip gave the participants the names of individuals who might be willing to give a financial contribution to the mission trip, and DD chose JB. Why would JB give money to this cause? To Increase conversions of heathens to his brand of Christianity, and for the tax write off. I don’t think there was anything more sinister than money needed for a post college graduation mission trip, cloaked in the guise of a Prayer Partner. And, I’m sure DD and JB did pray by Skype and that is where Jill actually met DD.

It’s not unusual for people looking for mission funds to make “prayer partner” arrangements with large donors. JB may not have been the only person Derrick was exchanging those types of emails with. 

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mpheels

I did a few summer mission trips in high school, and we had prayer partner/sponsor relationships with people from church. They made a contribution to the cost of the trip, and we wrote them postcards while away. After the trip, we organized a dinner for all of the donors where the teens cooked/served the meal and gave a presentation about the trip. (I’m not super proud of those trips in retrospect, but they were nothing like SOS trips the Duggars take. Our trips were all organized through the United Methodist Church, and we mostly did home repairs for older/poor/disabled community members and covered shifts at soup kitchens. We didn’t do any proselytizing, other than telling people we were a church group if they asked who we were).

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patsymae

"Sorry for the rant, but the arrogance of these people... it's bad enough that they consider themselves to be the paragons of virtue, but that they consider everyone else to be so dishonest, ignorant and incompetent just PISSES ME OFF"

 

When they were at the creation museum, JB went through this incredibly convoluted, and I'm sure he thought very erudite, "reasoning" about why carbon dating was based on a circular argument. He presented himself as quite the logicians. Dunning-Kruger incarnate.

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