Dillards 86: It's a Long Way to Tipperary

[mpheels]

One of the coolest and most impactful lessons from my high school experience was reading creation stories from different religions around the world and discussing the similarities/differences. A lot of creation stories include some aspect of a great flood, which probably does tie into global changes in sea level. It may also stem from early human oral traditions when they’re just were not that many people yet and everyone was on roughly the same continent, so a single major flood event could have impacted all of humanity. Serpents or other similar monsters are also a common theme in creation stories, which suggests some overlap in the origins of the story.

 

Love seeing so many other Tar Heels here! I moved to Chapel Hill for college and stayed for an extra decade. I really miss it it’s such a great place to live but sadly I haven’t been backI moved to Chapel Hill for college and stayed for an extra decade. I really miss it it’s such a great place to live. Sadly most of my friends have moved away from Chapel Hill and settled in Durham or Wake county due to the cost of living so when I go back to visit I rarely make it to town.

[Freejin]

2 hours ago, purple_summer said:

We discussed it a bit after the Q&A videos went up. It’s been brewing for quite a while so I don’t think the shock value was as huge. 

I can see that I guess, but a public statement that they are “not on the best of terms”?? It seems like that violates all the Duggar codes. 

[Giraffe]

6 hours ago, Freejin said:

I can see that I guess, but a public statement that they are “not on the best of terms”?? It seems like that violates all the Duggar codes. 

Good for  Jill then for publicly balking JB’s f’ed up codes. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Giraffe
Words good, need sleep

[Freejin]

47 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

Good for  Jill then for publicly balking JB’s f’ed up codes. 

I agree. I’m so impressed with her. I didn’t think she would have been the one. 

[AussieKrissy]

2 hours ago, Freejin said:

I agree. I’m so impressed with her. I didn’t think she would have been the one. 

I’m pleased for her. But sad too. I don’t like to see family splits. Though this one is a healthier one for her. I don’t like to think of people realising there loved ones may have fallen off the pedestal. Like for all people I know or suspect are hurting. I hope they heal and through love, time, support and learning. 

[FluffySnowball]

3 hours ago, Giraffe said:

Good for  Jill then for publicly balking JB’s f’ed up codes. 

While I do agree with you, I also find it sad when family problems become a public issue. Discussing such topics with friends - absolutely! But once people outside someone’s inner circle get to know too much of such private matters, I tend to also find it quite sad. 
So in Jill’s case, I give her credit for becoming more independent and feel kinda sad for her/the situation at the same time if that makes sense. 

[NCLunaLovegoodFan]

On 10/13/2020 at 9:21 PM, mpheels said:

 Aaaah, that clip! I forgot about Figure 8 doing “man on the street” interviews in Carrboro. For those who aren’t familiar, Figure 8 production headquarters is in Carrboro, NC, possibly one of the most liberal towns in the US. Super crunchy, granola, college-town-adjacent, very free spirited, and decidedly not fundamentalist in any way. Those reaction interviews were filmed at Weaver Street Market, the local co-op grocery store. I’ve always had a hard time rationalizing Figure 8’s validation of fundamentalist Christianity with their base in Carrboro. I used to live down the street from that market, and at the time those interviews were filmed the police chief was a lesbian, the mayor a gay man, and there was a black trans woman running for town council. I had friends who lived on a legitimate commune. I can’t figure out what the figure 8 producers actually believe.

I lived in Carrboro for about 8 years when I was in middle/high school and can attest to the culture. I never made the Figure 8 connection. Most of NC is the opposite of Carrboro- more conservative, Republican areas including the county I lived in as a child and now. The contrast is stark.

[Melissa1977]

13 hours ago, mpheels said:

One of the coolest and most impactful lessons from my high school experience was reading creation stories from different religions around the world and discussing the similarities/differences. A lot of creation stories include some aspect of a great flood, which probably does tie into global changes in sea level. It may also stem from early human oral traditions when they’re just were not that many people yet and everyone was on roughly the same continent, so a single major flood event could have impacted all of humanity. Serpents or other similar monsters are also a common theme in creation stories, which suggests some overlap in the origins of the story

People basically lived near lakes and rivers. Floods are common, so sure most groups experienced similar disasters before learning good buiding skills or weather consequences. Venomous snakes are found in the whole world. Several cultures explain how a god created a man from organic elements like clay or corn... Those stories can have the same origin, but probably people in different places shared similar experiences and fears.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

4 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

I’m pleased for her. But sad too. I don’t like to see family splits. Though this one is a healthier one for her. I don’t like to think of people realising there loved ones may have fallen off the pedestal. Like for all people I know or suspect are hurting. I hope they heal and through love, time, support and learning. 

I normally would say this but as the grown ass child of two controlling toxic parents, sometimes those splits are for the best. 

Now I wasn't raised in cult & my parents controlling wasn't to the extreme that JB's is, I was allowed out of the house w/o an accountability buddy and I attended public schools, albeit it in an ultra conservative mostly white small town in the midwest & my parents were very involved with the school board thus helping control what was and wasn't taught. I was encouraged to get an education because women have to work too, cuz money in status are more important than anything. 

It took me until I was about 35 to stand up to my parents and put them in their place in my life. The difference is my father wants to be part of my life even though I refuse to live my life how he thinks I should. 

[FiveAcres]

32 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I normally would say this but as the grown ass child of two controlling toxic parents, sometimes those splits are for the best. 

Thank you. I was low contact (before this was a THING) with my father when he died in my thirties. I didn't even know until fairly recently that he reportedly stopped drinking before he died and started to going to AA.

I was no-contact with my mother at various times. Even though I was her caretaker her last few years, she knew better than to start verbally abusing me, because she knew I would walk out the door the moment she started. Even when she spent her last few months in our house, I had to seek refuge downstairs away from her where she couldn't get to me. Fortunately during those times, my partner was willing to act as a buffer. Otherwise, I fear I would have been guilty of elder abuse. My partner was amazing about it. 

TLDR: Generally there is a good reason when family splits occur.

Edited October 15, 2020 by FiveAcres
added TLDR

[SassyPants]

And JB's level of psychological abuse was(is) off the charts. The withholding of education and extreme isolation, preventing any relationships beyond the family home’s 4 walls, unconscionable. It’s actually amazing that any of those adult kids is in a marital relationship. At the root of JB’s issues is his extreme lack of self confidence, IMO. He plays the big, competitive man, but you’ll notice that beyond reproduction, he really has never competed with another adult man. It was/is always competition with his kids.

[viii]

7 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

I’m pleased for her. But sad too. I don’t like to see family splits. Though this one is a healthier one for her. I don’t like to think of people realising there loved ones may have fallen off the pedestal. Like for all people I know or suspect are hurting. I hope they heal and through love, time, support and learning. 

I agree. I'm not sad for Jim Bob and Michelle - they deserve a lot worse than a strained relationship with a child. However, it isn't just about them. It's hard on all of Jill's siblings that viewed her as a second parent and are suddenly denied access to her. It's hard on Jill's children who don't have the same relationship with their grandparents and cousins. 

Of course one can argue that in the long run, this is healthier, but it doesn't mean that it's not hard as well. 

[slp]

I no longer speak to my parents and have minimal contact with my oldest child. And it’s healthier.  But it still sucks and you mourn the relationship that SHOULD be. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

This also gives an example to younger Duggar children and grandchildren that it's ok to not have contact with family if it's detrimental to your mental health. This is huuugggeee. 

[Karma]

Exactly, @slp  I was the “good” sister.  The sibling who cared about her brothers, who looked out for them, helped them, listened to their worries and hid my hurt when they did wrong by me. Until the final straw when I pulled away from the one I’d always thought I was closest to. So much hurt. It’s definitely healthier for me to have no contact with that brother. But I still mourn the relationship that should be.  Just not the one sided one which was. 

[seraaa]

10 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

I’m pleased for her. But sad too. I don’t like to see family splits. Though this one is a healthier one for her. I don’t like to think of people realising there loved ones may have fallen off the pedestal. Like for all people I know or suspect are hurting. I hope they heal and through love, time, support and learning. 

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm happier for them because I'm sure this is good for her well-being overall, but there still is probably a lot of sadness involved and nobody wishes for this kind of situation.

[Bobology]

All of you are making good points about the necessity and resulting sadness (hopefully temporary) of family splits. Jill's current pain will likely result in a much better life for her boys.

Do any of you remember a long-ago episode where JB mugged for the camera and spouted about his humongous family, "There will always be a Duggar there for you."? I guess he meant as long as 'you' are under his every whim and command. How generous of him now to allow a few of the family members to maintain a relationship with Jill and the boys. Has a pic of Derick surfaced from any of the posts where Jill is seen with various Duggar members?

[nokidsmom]

6 hours ago, FiveAcres said:

TLDR: Generally there is a good reason when family splits occur.

Yes and unfortunately, I learned that as well.     My middle sister has always been difficult and I think my parents thought that as she grew up she would get better but no, she got worse, way worse.   In a nutshell my youngest sister is completely estranged from her and for good reason, in spite of being close for many years.   I finally have gone very limited contact with her and only for the sake of my nephews, her two sons.

Just to say that "difficult" was an understatement.   The fact that both my youngest sister and I found her to be lying and cheating in handling our parents' estate was the final straw for us.   This after years of verbal and emotional abuse.  We overlooked a LOT for the sake of family unity but with our parents gone, we are no longer playing her game.

[wendy-sparkles]

8 hours ago, viii said:

I agree. I'm not sad for Jim Bob and Michelle - they deserve a lot worse than a strained relationship with a child. However, it isn't just about them. It's hard on all of Jill's siblings that viewed her as a second parent and are suddenly denied access to her. It's hard on Jill's children who don't have the same relationship with their grandparents and cousins. 

Of course one can argue that in the long run, this is healthier, but it doesn't mean that it's not hard as well. 

I feel so bad for Jenny, who has always seemed miserable being a Duggar since she was tiny, and now she's lost her mum I think even if Jill had stayed Jenny would be one of the biggest flight risks, and I bet that's one of the main reasons they're so strict with Jill's access to the kids. unfortunately I think Jenny's at a high risk of them trying to marry her off young. it will be interesting if we see them start sending her or Johannah to JTTH retreats. (Johannah has never seemed as miserable but who can forget tiny Johannah who was whip smart - what if she wants to go to college?????? )

[Bluebirdbluebell]

11 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

This also gives an example to younger Duggar children and grandchildren that it's ok to not have contact with family if it's detrimental to your mental health. This is huuugggeee. 

I doubt her siblings see it like this. It might help for them to know that Jill choses to live differently and God hasn't punished her, but I don't know if they realize that. I would love it if Jill becomes an inspiration to others leaving fundementalism/the parents behind, but it hasn't happen. 

[Denim Jumper]

21 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

People basically lived near lakes and rivers. Floods are common, so sure most groups experienced similar disasters before learning good buiding skills or weather consequences. Venomous snakes are found in the whole world. Several cultures explain how a god created a man from organic elements like clay or corn... Those stories can have the same origin, but probably people in different places shared similar experiences and fears.

My poor husband was raised fundie, and that particular plot hole was rationalized two ways:

1. The creation stories are so similar because God made it that way to prepare people’s hearts for the Gospel. As in, a prospective ancient world convert would be all like “Eh, we got the same creation story, so I guess I can seamlessly transition to this completely foreign and counterculture religion.”

2. Other cultures stole the Biblical creation account and rewrote it to deceive potential converts away from accepting the Gospel. 
 

Serendipitously, I have been a huge mythology nerd since I was a child, so it was sad but endearing watching him grapple with the new realization that the evangelical Christian arguments simply don’t pass muster, for multiple evidence-based reasons. He just about cried when I explained the hows and whys of the “Big Bang Theory” being essentially a  science-based creation story. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Denim Jumper

[viii]

9 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I doubt her siblings see it like this. It might help for them to know that Jill choses to live differently and God hasn't punished her, but I don't know if they realize that. I would love it if Jill becomes an inspiration to others leaving fundementalism/the parents behind, but it hasn't happen. 

That's the thing. Sure, Jill's escape might not be that big of a deal to people. After all, they're still Christian, they still have some horrible beliefs, and they're still living a lifestyle that not everyone would agree with. However, she is planting seeds in her younger siblings minds, and so while perhaps Jill has only taken a few steps out of her comfort zone, it might encourage some of her siblings to run freely. 

[SassyPants]

28 minutes ago, viii said:

That's the thing. Sure, Jill's escape might not be that big of a deal to people. After all, they're still Christian, they still have some horrible beliefs, and they're still living a lifestyle that not everyone would agree with. However, she is planting seeds in her younger siblings minds, and so while perhaps Jill has only taken a few steps out of her comfort zone, it might encourage some of her siblings to run freely. 

I think the support and use of both BC and public education are HUGE divergences from JB’s and Gothard’s tenets. 
 

For Jill these are major changes and adjustments.

[nokidsmom]

37 minutes ago, viii said:

However, she is planting seeds in her younger siblings minds, and so while perhaps Jill has only taken a few steps out of her comfort zone, it might encourage some of her siblings to run freely. 

Make no mistake the siblings are watching closely even if they don't realize it.  JB and J'chelle are showing their children at home exactly what they can expect: submit to the parental control / approval, or ditch it for a happier life.   Some will not want to risk Mommy and Daddy's disapproval but there will be others who are over it and decide they spent enough of their lives living under their parents' thumb.   

[Oh_Dear!]

Jill posted in her stories a shopping trip with Jessa and Joy and all the kids (except Israel). Only ones wearing masks are Jill and Sam. Seems like another departure from her family.