M Is For Mama 8: She Really Is Awful

[Bluebirdbluebell]

2 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

There is Santa Raquel, Santa Sara, San Moises, San Isaac, even San Judas and a lot more. 

Also for Spanish Catholics, some important women in the Bible are considered Saints. So there is the day of Santa Esther, Santa Ruth, etc. Not all biblical names have a Saint, though. 

There is a Catholic names book called Santoral. Priests had a copy of that to know the "saints of the day". Traditionally many newborns were named after the saint of their birthday and any baby could be given a name that wasn't there. So in the past it would have been impossible to call a baby Cohen, but enterely possible to call him Isaac.

When a name is written in the main Christian book, and has been used for centuries, even having its own "Saint day", how can be called as appropiation? 

And yes, it's absurd that Christians are antisemitic. Absurd and very sad.

*I edit because I think that Saints may be different depending on the countries. Santoral is a Spanish book. Maybe in US the saints are celebrated in other days, or some biblical names don't have the "saint day" they have here. My country has a very strong relationship with saints and thousand versions of Holy Mary (giving her a lot of names, and including several black Holy Mary in Catalonia).

I couldn't find any information about Saint Raquel.

The tradition of considering important Old Testament women saints is anti-semitic at worst and cultural appropriation at best. It's wrong and they should stop calling them that. 

[elsiedindin]

So in English “saint” and “holy” are two different words with distinct connotations, but that’s not the case in Latin (or French, Spanish, Italian...) 

The word “sancta” is merely the Latin word for “holy” — so Holy Elijah or Holy Ruth. The English language is just making  a distinction here that other languages don’t. And in an English-speaking Catholic context you are not incredibly likely to hear either “saint” or “holy” attached to the prophets/leaders of the Old Testament. Maybe “blessed Elijah” or blessed Ruth”.  I think the only time I’ve heard OT figures referred to as “saints” would have been in an old-fashioned devotional prayer with really excessively flowery language, probably not very well translated from Latin/French/Spanish/Italian.

[SassyPants]

This is what I always thought about cre8tive names...at least anywhere I’ve ever lived, it is perfectly legal to change your OWN name. So I think instead of saddling your child with your cre8tive or unqueee masterpiece of a name, why don’t you just go ahead and change your own name. See how you like being called Mustafa (yes, a baby in our Nicu)- No harm, no foul, and your creative flag can fly high and proud. OTOH, said creatively named child can always change their name too.

[katilac]

5 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

 If Spurgeon Seewald quits the cult, he will always be "the son of fundies" because his name. 

I confidently predict that he is going to go by, and be known as, Elliot Seewald just as soon as he can - whether he leaves or stays.

Edited to add: I was double-checking that I remembered his name correctly, and that is one seriously cute kid!

Edited September 27, 2020 by katilac

[JDuggs]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

This is what I always thought about cre8tive names...at least anywhere I’ve ever lived, it is perfectly legal to change your OWN name. So I think instead of saddling your child with your cre8tive or unqueee masterpiece of a name, why don’t you just go ahead and change your own name. See how you like being called Mustafa (yes, a baby in our Nicu)- No harm, no foul, and your creative flag can fly high and proud. OTOH, said creatively named child can always change their name too.

Not sure what you mean about the name Mustafa. It’s an Arabic name. I actually just read an online article today written by a boy from our local high school and his name was Mustafa.

[Melissa1977]

8 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I couldn't find any information about Saint Raquel.

The tradition of considering important Old Testament women saints is anti-semitic at worst and cultural appropriation at best. It's wrong and they should stop calling them that. 

 

8 hours ago, elsiedindin said:

So in English “saint” and “holy” are two different words with distinct connotations, but that’s not the case in Latin (or French, Spanish, Italian...) 

The word “sancta” is merely the Latin word for “holy” — so Holy Elijah or Holy Ruth. The English language is just making  a distinction here that other languages don’t. And in an English-speaking Catholic context you are not incredibly likely to hear either “saint” or “holy” attached to the prophets/leaders of the Old Testament. Maybe “blessed Elijah” or blessed Ruth”.  I think the only time I’ve heard OT figures referred to as “saints” would have been in an old-fashioned devotional prayer with really excessively flowery language, probably not very well translated from Latin/French/Spanish/Italian.

Thank you Elsiedinsin for the explanation. 

Also the "Saint of the day" is a day to remember that person/character. So it's workshipping Biblical Ruth (for example), not making her a Saint as Joanne d'Arc (just another example). 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Melissa1977
Clarify

[SassyPants]

5 hours ago, JDuggs said:

Not sure what you mean about the name Mustafa. It’s an Arabic name. I actually just read an online article today written by a boy from our local high school and his name was Mustafa.

This baby was not of Middle Eastern descent, and it was during the reign of the original Lion King movie. I could give you many other examples of unthoughtful names. 

5 hours ago, JDuggs said:

Not sure what you mean about the name Mustafa. It’s an Arabic name. I actually just read an online article today written by a boy from our local high school and his name was Mustafa.

This baby was not of Middle Eastern descent, and it was during the reign of the original Lion King movie. I could give you many other examples of unthoughtful names.

Ruby was lost but now she’s found...lots of junk in the trunk. Guess it’s better a dog than a human. Too many legs and arms to manage. Hope no one from the party gets Covid.

[BlessingsVonFundiePants]

19 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Ruby was lost but now she’s found...lots of junk in the trunk. Guess it’s better a dog than a human. Too many legs and arms to manage. Hope no one from the party gets Covid.

If I was a dog in that family with a future of being used to breed puppies as a side-hustle I’d stow away in the first car I could find too ? 

[llucie]

12 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I couldn't find any information about Saint Raquel.

The tradition of considering important Old Testament women saints is anti-semitic at worst and cultural appropriation at best. It's wrong and they should stop calling them that. 

Old Testament is also part of the Catholic faith, so using names from there is not cultural appropiation but a centuries old tradition. Also Saint Raquel (the one of the bible) is celebrated 2 of september.

[JDuggs]

3 hours ago, SassyPants said:

This baby was not of Middle Eastern descent, and it was during the reign of the original Lion King movie. I could give you many other examples of unthoughtful names. 

First you were using Mustafa as an example of a creative or unique name when it really is a legitimate name. Next, you seemed to be calling out the parents for cultural appropriation because they weren’t of Middle Eastern descent. Also you’re calling the name unthoughtful which really isn’t your decision. Mustafa is a name used by Muslims. Are you telling me that white or black Americans can’t be Muslims?

Mufasa is the name from The Lion King. And if the parents thought that was a good name, that’s their choice too.

 

[SassyPants]

1 minute ago, JDuggs said:

First you were using Mustafa as an example of a creative or unique name when it really is a legitimate name. Next, you seemed to be calling out the parents for cultural appropriation because they weren’t of Middle Eastern descent. Also you’re calling the name unthoughtful which really isn’t your decision. Mustafa is a name used by Muslims. Are you telling me that white or black Americans can’t be Muslims?

Mufasa is the name from The Lion King. And if the parents thought that was a good name, that’s their choice too.

 

Sure, and like I said, the said named person, who is not a possession by the way, but a separate person, can change names if they so choose. As an example, my BIL was originally given the first name of a cartoon caricature, and after much teasing he approached his parents about changing his name. He did change his name by reducing the first name to a letter,  and legally going by his middle name. Think M. Thomas Last Name.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

5 hours ago, llucie said:

Old Testament is also part of the Catholic faith, so using names from there is not cultural appropiation but a centuries old tradition. Also Saint Raquel (the one of the bible) is celebrated 2 of september.

Calling the Old Testament characters saints still makes me uncomfortable, although apparently they're not exactly saints based on the explanation above. The explanation confuses me, but I'll accept there's hopefully a distinction made between a saint and Old Testament character. 

(I also said before that Christians using OT names doesn't usually bother me.)

As for their shared heritage, sometimes Christianity can be guilty of cultural appropriation even of that shared heritage. I mentioned that if people have anti-Semitic belief it's certainly a problem. For example, if Christian believes that other people not of their faith is going to hell than that is problem and an Anti-Semitic problem at that. The Catholic Church preached all non-Catholics were going to hell for a long time up until Vatican II, and even then some Catholics still rejected/reject Liberation Theology.

I'm not good explaining the issues with Christians appropriating too much of Jewish theology. I was raised Catholic myself. Probably a Jewish person could explain it better. 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Bluebirdbluebell

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

16 hours ago, SassyPants said:

This is what I always thought about cre8tive names...at least anywhere I’ve ever lived, it is perfectly legal to change your OWN name. So I think instead of saddling your child with your cre8tive or unqueee masterpiece of a name, why don’t you just go ahead and change your own name. See how you like being called Mustafa (yes, a baby in our Nicu)- No harm, no foul, and your creative flag can fly high and proud. OTOH, said creatively named child can always change their name too.

Mustafa is a perfectly normal Islamic name.

Since I was too lazy to read ahead to see this was covered, I'll add, I don't even see a problem if the kid isn't raised Muslim. Some Arabic names that are used by others commonly are Aaliyah and Leila/Layla.

Edited September 27, 2020 by PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea
Clarify thoughts

[JermajestyDuggar]

Mustafa is a super cool name. But I always think of the Lion King. Especially the part where one of the hyenas says “Mustafa!” And the other hyena says, “ooooooh say it again! Say it again!” 

[JDuggs]

25 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Mustafa is a super cool name. But I always think of the Lion King. Especially the part where one of the hyenas says “Mustafa!” And the other hyena says, “ooooooh say it again! Say it again!” 

Just to clarify, the name in The Lion King is MUFASA, not MUSTAFA.

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

21 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

I'm not opposed to India -- there were at least 2 very old ladies in my small hometown named India -- and there's India Wilkes in GWTW.

I have seen some .... um... odd cultural names mash-ups among co-workers:

• Justin Brandon VeryHispanicLastName
• Patrick Aiden Sean Grogan VeryItalianLastName - the PASG part was for the mom's brother - which is a whole 'nother weird story
• Cian (Irish) VeryGreekLastName -- and no one can pronounce the first name correctly
• Jesus Maria-Conception VeryJewishLastName (think Goldfarb, Goldwyn, etc) and his twin sister Immaculata Maria-Conception Magdalena -- these 2 are courtesy of a friend who grew up in Brooklyn and went to school with them 

Sometimes there are names that just don't jibe.

I am totally fine with first and last names from different traditions. Ppl have been doing it for centuries due to immigration and assimilation and/or multicultural marriages. I bet most Americans have names that linguistically don't match, especially if you include BiblicalFirstName AngloSaxonLastName and EnglishFirstName OtherEuropeanLastName. I am in one of those categories.

[clueliss]

On 9/25/2020 at 9:05 PM, mysweetetc said:

So, being a baby name nerd, I belong to several Facebook name-shaming groups. Several of these groups are very vocal about the cultural appropriation of certain baby names by people not entitled to use them. Asher comes up often, as it is very trendy. The overwhelming consensus seems to be that it is an exclusively Jewish name (Cohen, Esther, and Rachel are some other examples), and that it is in very bad taste for parents not of the faith to use it.

Then again, Ezra and Simon have both come up in that conversation, and Abbie has one of each. Thoughts?

Late to this, but Asher was on my list of potential (imaginary child since I’m. Ow past that age) boy list.  But, please note, that Asher IS a non-Jewish surname.  It’s in my family tree, a grandfather’s middle name and that, not that it was Jewish or in the Bible, that I would have used it.  

[Zebedee]

Re testing oxygen with nail polish: I don't think it disturbs the oximeter thing much, if at all. I know I keep mentioning it here, but 2.5 years ago I went into hospital with some still undiagnosed respiratory illness, and was in a coma for 6 weeks, on a ventilator. I'd just been to a ball, and also, just had a 3 hour long foot operation - so, was on crutches. Since I couldn't wear the shoes I wanted to, I decided to match my nail polish with my crutches. So, dark teal it was! When I woke up, I still had the nail polish on half my nails, so clearly the docs weren't that bothered (though I guess the smell of remover might have been an issue, it would also have been only one nail they needed to clean).
Also, once I was awake, and my mum took the polish off for me, I was still on the vent part time, with an oximeter, and it still hovered about 98-99 as long as I didn't move. So, I'm thinking that it probably doesn't interfere more than 1% at most with the readings on new equipment?

I don't mind Titus, but I'm a godless heathen and just thought of the Roman Emperor (and god) Titus. Tobias makes me think of one of the killers in Criminal Minds, so Toby is probably better!

[llucie]

5 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Calling the Old Testament characters saints still makes me uncomfortable, although apparently they're not exactly saints based on the explanation above. The explanation confuses me, but I'll accept there's hopefully a distinction made between a saint and Old Testament character. 

The characters in the bible are people that really existed for catholics, and a saint is simply a normal person that lived and died and the church believes is in heaven with God, so i dont see why it would be weird that some of them are saints.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

39 minutes ago, llucie said:

The characters in the bible are people that really existed for catholics, and a saint is simply a normal person that lived and died and the church believes is in heaven with God, so i dont see why it would be weird that some of them are saints.

Saints are either Christians or people with strong connections to the early church and they're people who have performed miracles. A person needs to have something miraculous to become a saint. I grew up Catholic I know all about saints. 

The Old Testament characters don't have ties to the early church and aren't Christian. They're Jewish and they lived their lives as Jews, not as Christians. They are still very important to people who celebrate Judaism. 

Christians of various denominations have seen themselves as continuation of the biblical characters and their journey. It's correct, but the Jewish are here and they are also a continuation of the biblical characters. A lot of Christians have believed that they are the only continuation of the story and the Jewish people should join Christianity or exit the story.

Here's another way of looking at it. I consider someone like Martin Luther King Jr. to be an excellent person, but I wouldn't call him a saint because he's not Catholic. It's not his culture. He was Baptist minister.   In the same way, Christianity wasn't the culture of the Old Testament characters.

  I was okay with the explanation above about Saint just meaning kind of holy. Let's just leave it there. 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Bluebirdbluebell

[elsiedindin]

22 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I grew up Catholic I know all about saints. 

... I’m really struggling to know where to begin here.

The canonization process is very formal these days (with at least two events considered miraculous as well as mountains of paperwork for the local bishop to submit to the Vatican) but this is a relatively recent development in Church history. Originally it was by popular acclamation as “holy” (which remember in languages other than English is generally the same word as “saint”).

34 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

The Old Testament characters don't have ties to the early church and aren't Christian. They're Jewish and they lived their lives as Jews, not as Christians.

In Acts of the Apostles the early church grappled with this topic quite a bit, as (especially early on) they saw themselves as still fully Jewish, simply following a particular rabbi’s teachings. At most they were considered an unusual Jewish sect. It would have been a tremendous surprise to them that holy figures from the OT had zero connection to their movement. They looked back at the scriptures they had spent their whole lives hearing and re-interpreted them in light of Jesus. What we know now as Christianity emerged from the Hebraic/Jewish tradition and refers back to it constantly. Christ as the new Adam, Mary the new Eve and so on. The writers of Matthew and Luke take great pains to show how Jesus was the fulfillment, in their view, of OT prophecies. 
 

Just to throw this out there, Muslims also venerate numerous biblical figures and name their children after them. The three religions share a common history. My friend from college who is Muslim asked me a question once about “holy Maryam” (Miriam/Mary, the mother of Jesus) and the fact that her religion venerates Mary doesn’t take away from the fact that my religion does too. 

[formergothardite]

8 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

f Christian believes that other people not of their faith is going to hell than that is problem and an Anti-Semitic problem at that.

I don't think that they* have have any particular hatred or hostility towards Judaism. It is more of a blanket everyone but us mindset with no particular dislike for the Jewish communities.   And even in the groups of Christians who believe this way there are pockets who also think Catholics are going to hell. Pockets that think people who don't use the KJV are going to hell.  Pockets who think that God created the majority of people with the expressed intention for them to go to hell. Pockets who think that Judaism is the one non-Christian religion that will go to heaven because they will always be God's chosen people.  I have found it is a bit more complicated that it is automatically anti-Semitic problem because most times there is no singling Jewish people out as a group to dislike or be prejudiced against. It is more anti-everyone. 

I totally agree the belief is problematic because it is in general an awful thing to believe and entirely too many people buy into it without considering the actual ramifications. 

*most of the Christians who believe this way, I'm sure we could produce some Christians whose base this on a hatred of people who are Jewish. But in my experience the majority of the time it isn't like that. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

6 hours ago, JDuggs said:

Just to clarify, the name in The Lion King is MUFASA, not MUSTAFA.

You’re right! Thanks for the clarification. Both names sound good to me. 

[Seahorse Wrangler]

3 hours ago, Zebedee said:

 Tobias makes me think of one of the killers in Criminal Minds, so Toby is probably better!

Tobias makes me think of this guy

 

Spoiler

 

[Marly]

Titus makes me think of Titus Andromedan, the very fabulous, very gay character from Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. I like that this name reminds me of this character, especially since that is probably not the kind of association Braggie would want her son's name to have.