Joy & Austin 31: Adding Evelyn Mae

[VineHeart137]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

@allthegoodnamesrgone joined 5 years ago, a couple of months before I did. I really wonder what's going on, and if some people are just at their breaking point. @wallysmommy just flounced from the Rodrigues thread, and she had been very active with recaps.

I'm putting it down to stress, Covid, Christmas, etc. I hope all my fellow FJers stay safe and sane. This is where I come for my fundie fix, and I appreciate you all.

My husband and I were just discussing how we've witnessed some very out of character behavior from a couple of our friends and family members over the past couple months. The stress of this year is real. Please remember to take care of yourselves!!

[FreeTheScapegoats]

My personal theory on why some Duggars were snarked on while others had more good will granted is based on how outspoken they were on the show, or what gestures they used. Basically, if they rolled their eyes enough or sticked it to gender roles enough, they were considered ones to look out for as potential escapees, and thus judged less harshly. Jessa comes to mind, snarky from the start and far from a doormat to her husband. Jana as well, as she wanted to believe in evolution and was apparently so wronged by the family since the jewelry box incident. Jinger and her city dreams.

That’s when Jill comes in- the goody two-shoes, Jim Bob’s favorite, announcing a pregnancy before the stick was dry. Three years ago, virtually nobody had hope for Jill. So, she was snarked harshly, because she *was* going  to become Michelle 2.0. Until she wasn’t, and people turned their tides. At the same time, Jinger showed how much of a malleable person she really was, liking cities for the aesthetic and not really for the possibilities (or was traumatized into emptiness, but that’s still far from the Jinger ideal that got this site named) and Jessa and Jana proved themselves as true believers to the core.

Now, most of that applies to Joy as well, with the caveat that she was actually seen as a little girl in the first special. The older girls were first shown already parentified. Joy was a little girl who acted as such. In fact, she was a tomboy- sticking it to gender roles! The audience actually got to see her grow up. They- we- felt sorry for her when she was separated from her brothers because she was a tween/teen. She kept up with the eyerolls and all. People thought she was just bidding her time until she turned 18 and could move with Cousin Amy. Then, she didn’t.

Long before Annabell, it was easier for people to see Joy as a mere victim of the cult. She’s no different than the others in that aspect, but with her, it was seen in real time, so to say. Her dispositions were squashed, she was separated from her brothers, she was married off very young- the first Duggar teen bride- she lost a child at an age most are still figuring themselves out. She wasn’t just someone who rolled her eyes enough to be considered a possible escapee- she was someone people saw grow up. People want the best for her, to realize how much damage was done to her and break the cycle. The thing is, she won’t. She doubled down, even- not only did she join Parler, she was public about it. It’s just harder for most because we all *saw* her when she was little.

I wonder how it will be with the Lost Girls as they come of age. They may not have been seen as much post 19KAC, but they were still born on TV. I’m just worried in a way people will take it personally with, say, Jenni, if she doesn’t run to Jill’s house the second she turns 18.

[Sabine]

2 hours ago, FreeTheScapegoats said:

I wonder how it will be with the Lost Girls as they come of age. They may not have been seen as much post 19KAC, but they were still born on TV. I’m just worried in a way people will take it personally with, say, Jenni, if she doesn’t run to Jill’s house the second she turns 18.

But do we really expect any of the girls to do anything different to their sisters? I don't for one. I would think it normal for Jenni to get married to some douche at 18, be with child five month later and done. 

If Jenni or any of the others want to get out of the house without parental interference, marriage it is. 

 

[wendy-sparkles]

The 'parlour' pronunciation is what I assumed (zero French), but I just thought it was trying to imply somewhere, if you were a very fancy lady, you might retire with your friends to have a nice bitch about everyone. ? 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

5 hours ago, FreeTheScapegoats said:

My personal theory on why some Duggars were snarked on while others had more good will granted is based on how outspoken they were on the show, or what gestures they used. Basically, if they rolled their eyes enough or sticked it to gender roles enough, they were considered ones to look out for as potential escapees, and thus judged less harshly. Jessa comes to mind, snarky from the start and far from a doormat to her husband. Jana as well, as she wanted to believe in evolution and was apparently so wronged by the family since the jewelry box incident. Jinger and her city dreams.

That’s when Jill comes in- the goody two-shoes, Jim Bob’s favorite, announcing a pregnancy before the stick was dry. Three years ago, virtually nobody had hope for Jill. So, she was snarked harshly, because she *was* going  to become Michelle 2.0. Until she wasn’t, and people turned their tides. At the same time, Jinger showed how much of a malleable person she really was, liking cities for the aesthetic and not really for the possibilities (or was traumatized into emptiness, but that’s still far from the Jinger ideal that got this site named) and Jessa and Jana proved themselves as true believers to the core.

Now, most of that applies to Joy as well, with the caveat that she was actually seen as a little girl in the first special. The older girls were first shown already parentified. Joy was a little girl who acted as such. In fact, she was a tomboy- sticking it to gender roles! The audience actually got to see her grow up. They- we- felt sorry for her when she was separated from her brothers because she was a tween/teen. She kept up with the eyerolls and all. People thought she was just bidding her time until she turned 18 and could move with Cousin Amy. Then, she didn’t.

Long before Annabell, it was easier for people to see Joy as a mere victim of the cult. She’s no different than the others in that aspect, but with her, it was seen in real time, so to say. Her dispositions were squashed, she was separated from her brothers, she was married off very young- the first Duggar teen bride- she lost a child at an age most are still figuring themselves out. She wasn’t just someone who rolled her eyes enough to be considered a possible escapee- she was someone people saw grow up. People want the best for her, to realize how much damage was done to her and break the cycle. The thing is, she won’t. She doubled down, even- not only did she join Parler, she was public about it. It’s just harder for most because we all *saw* her when she was little.

I wonder how it will be with the Lost Girls as they come of age. They may not have been seen as much post 19KAC, but they were still born on TV. I’m just worried in a way people will take it personally with, say, Jenni, if she doesn’t run to Jill’s house the second she turns 18.

Joy deserves the snark she gets now, but if she is a victim, isn't it sad that her sisters are headed down the same path! That they have no agency and no ability to decide their fate! That they'll be saddled with first child, then another, and if they feel at all, it will be hard for them to leave if leaving is even possible. 

People didn't really turn on Joy the minute she turned 18. She was 19 when she got married. They started turning on her once as she became more and more fundie and right-wing and hateful in her worldview. Austin is just as bad if not worse. They deserve the harshest snark. 

If her sisters turn out like Joy, they will deserve the snark they get. If I worry about them at all, it's that they will pressured into conforming without seeing what else is out there. 

[fundieundies]

14 hours ago, FreeTheScapegoats said:

Now, most of that applies to Joy as well, with the caveat that she was actually seen as a little girl in the first special. The older girls were first shown already parentified. Joy was a little girl who acted as such. In fact, she was a tomboy- sticking it to gender roles! The audience actually got to see her grow up. They- we- felt sorry for her when she was separated from her brothers because she was a tween/teen. She kept up with the eyerolls and all. People thought she was just bidding her time until she turned 18 and could move with Cousin Amy. Then, she didn’t.

Long before Annabell, it was easier for people to see Joy as a mere victim of the cult. She’s no different than the others in that aspect, but with her, it was seen in real time, so to say. Her dispositions were squashed, she was separated from her brothers, she was married off very young- the first Duggar teen bride- she lost a child at an age most are still figuring themselves out. She wasn’t just someone who rolled her eyes enough to be considered a possible escapee- she was someone people saw grow up. People want the best for her, to realize how much damage was done to her and break the cycle. The thing is, she won’t. She doubled down, even- not only did she join Parler, she was public about it. It’s just harder for most because we all *saw* her when she was little.

 

This was all super well written and hit the nail on the head. I just wanted to add that I'm a year older than Joy. I also grew up a tomboy and I watched the show when I was younger. The past few years I've watched our lives and just been sad and sympathetic because when she got married I moved into my first apartment with college roommates. When she had Gideon I was buying tickets to ski trips and music festivals during my senior spring. When she announced she was pregnant with Annabell I moved to a different city because I got my first real post-college job. And so on and so forth for the rest of our lives I guess.

I've always been a bit more sympathetic to her because I felt she just had the joys of life (no pun intended) sucked out of her by her family and felt pity. It took me way too long to admit that but once she joined Parler I woke up and just realized that it's a waste of time to pity someone who is fully standing by her shitty, incredibly limited beliefs. She never had many options but she's fully embracing the terrible ones she has and I'm not pitying or numbing my judgement to that anymore.

[clueliss]

The key for me with Joy was learning that she questioned her faith.  And then committed and in my mind, doubled down.  For me the doubled down is evidenced in choosing Austen.  Things were said by Austen (I think) at their wedding rehearsal dinner.  Stuff like Joseph’s influence and how the howlers are now all reading the Bible (which I interpreted as maybe there was some straying going on at one point).  

My pet theory in this, is that the Joshly scandals had an impact in the whole family that the Duggars really tried to bury.  Then “positive influences” came in and changed things around.  We know Joe struggled with what Josh did.  A trip to the Batseseses for “college” followed by a trip to Alert (which I believe is a sign they are deeply steeped in the cult koolaid, not the form of punishment some seem to think it is).  Since him we’ve seen an entire series of the other boys go to Alert. 
 

Alos, Joy’s political babbles, such as they are, don’t surprise me one bit and fit with what I see A LOT of here in mid Missouri from mainstream Christian, Trump endorsing coworkers, friends and family.  
 

finally, personal take on anyone (broad definition, I’m talking anyone I see from any source) who tries to “call out” these fools on something they’re doing is only feed the idea twisted up in their collective cult mindset that “the world” doesn’t understand and that “satan” is at work.  Which is why I wouldn’t bother with that sort of thing.  

[Glasgowghirl]

I did have a lot of sympathy for Joy but now not so much, her and Austin being on Parler liking stuff about election conspiracy theories and right wing propaganda is horrible and can't be ignored. When it comes to Jill not going to her house for the women's day we have no evidence to say she wasn't invited or that Joy has cut her off. 

I still have a degree of sympathy for what happened in her childhood and her losing Annabell but that doesn't excuse her behaviour now. 

[nausicaa]

On 12/22/2020 at 4:04 PM, Bad Wolf said:

@allthegoodnamesrgone joined 5 years ago, a couple of months before I did. I really wonder what's going on, and if some people are just at their breaking point. @wallysmommy just flounced from the Rodrigues thread, and she had been very active with recaps.

And Allthegoodnamesaregone has been pretty consistently irrational, uneducated, and entitled in those five years. This is hardly her first freak out. 

I once asked her to support some tax claims with evidence and she only responded with yet another randomly capitalized, poorly constructed emotional response and then vagueposted on her wall that  "this place isn't fun anymore." 

She'd make crazy unsupported claims in the political threads like "Trump is too sexist to ever nominate a female SC justice" even though it was well known for years that he wished to nominate Amy Coney Barrett next. 

I hope she can find another forum where not being expected to back up your claims with evidence, random ALL CAPS, poor spelling, and zero discernment of nuance is "fun." And I hope she stays there.

[FiveAcres]

On 12/24/2020 at 10:45 AM, nausicaa said:

And Allthegoodnamesaregone has been pretty consistently irrational, uneducated, and entitled in those five years. This is hardly her first freak out. 

I once asked her to support some tax claims with evidence and she only responded with yet another randomly capitalized, poorly constructed emotional response and then vagueposted on her wall that  "this place isn't fun anymore." 

She'd make crazy unsupported claims in the political threads like "Trump is too sexist to ever nominate a female SC justice" even though it was well known for years that he wished to nominate Amy Coney Barrett next. 

I hope she can find another forum where not being expected to back up your claims with evidence, random ALL CAPS, poor spelling, and zero discernment of nuance is "fun." And I hope she stays there.

One of the things I like about FJ is that, overall, there is a fair proficiency with the English language, including pronunciation, spelling, syntax and vocabulary. It warms the cockles of my English major's heart, and makes me want to up my game when I post. 

[RosyDaisy]

On 12/23/2020 at 10:20 AM, clueliss said:

finally, personal take on anyone (broad definition, I’m talking anyone I see from any source) who tries to “call out” these fools on something they’re doing is only feed the idea twisted up in their collective cult mindset that “the world” doesn’t understand and that “satan” is at work.  Which is why I wouldn’t bother with that sort of thing.  

Ignoring them only allows them to spread their hateful beliefs without being held accountable for the damage they cause.

 

[Bad Wolf]

1 hour ago, FiveAcres said:

One of the things I like about FJ is that, overall, there is a fair proficiency with the English language, including pronunciation, spelling, syntax and vocabulary. It warms the cockles of my English major's heart, and makes me want to up my game when I post. 

What impresses me are the people who are not native speakers. Most of them can still give Jill and her offspring a run for their money.

I meant Jill Rodrigues, not Jill Dillard.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Bad Wolf
Wrong thread

[nausicaa]

2 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

Ignoring them only allows them to spread their hateful beliefs without being held accountable for the damage they cause.

But are overwrought and speculative messages like Allthegoodnamesaregone's helpful at all? If someone can't be cool-headed and logical when interacting with Fundies, they *are* likely doing more harm than good.

If you're gonna shoot your shot, best to try and aim well. Or at the very least don't shoot your own foot. 

Of all the things to legitimately criticize Joy for, not seeing her sister over Christmas is not one of them. 1. We have no real evidence of this alienation narrative, and 2. Even if they are estranged, I do think that falls under personal family business and isn't our place to butt into as it doesn't affect us and we don't know the details. 

[RosyDaisy]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

But are overwrought and speculative messages like Allthegoodnamesaregone's helpful at all?

I personally wouldn't have chosen that route, but I don't feel sorry for them if others do.  I prefer to call them out on things they say and do.  The point is to expose them So they have less followers, not change their beliefs.

[marmalade]

3 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

I personally wouldn't have chosen that route, but I don't feel sorry for them if others do.  I prefer to call them out on things they say and do.  The point is to expose them So they have less followers, not change their beliefs.

It doesn't do much good. Dissent gets shot down by delusional leghumpers. It's not worth the effort, really. 

[viii]

As someone who grew up in a toxic, harmful cult, I have some sympathy for all of them - even Josh to a degree. However, you’ve eventually got to stop using your past as a crutch and take responsibility for your adult choices. 

[OrchidBlossom]

Just to be clear, literally no one is telling anyone what they can and can't do outside of FJ. I know that doesn't have quite the dramatic flair @allthegoodnamesrgone wanted, though. And why get bogged down in the truth, after all.

[Daisy0322]

15 hours ago, viii said:

As someone who grew up in a toxic, harmful cult, I have some sympathy for all of them - even Josh to a degree. However, you’ve eventually got to stop using your past as a crutch and take responsibility for your adult choices. 

I have such a hard time deciding where that line is. I think for me though it is somewhere between when their first child is born and their first birthday.  I grew up in a toxic environment and spent my first 6ish years of adulthood in react mode and not making great choices but as soon as I found out I was pregnant I went to therapy and got my shit together. I do still feel for them though. I don’t know if I’m too forgiving of people but I do honestly tho m most of them believe they’re carrying out Gods will. 
 

ps hi everyone! I know I’ve not posted in a long time. Having 2 kiddos under three is exhausting haha. I’ve missed y’all though  

Edited December 26, 2020 by Daisy0322

[Expectopatronus]

On 12/25/2020 at 9:53 PM, viii said:

As someone who grew up in a toxic, harmful cult, I have some sympathy for all of them - even Josh to a degree. However, you’ve eventually got to stop using your past as a crutch and take responsibility for your adult choices. 

I do too. I’m not sure how much free will any of them have left, especially the ones who were married off to super fundies. I don’t agree with any of their beliefs but I’m reminded of a song my grade 12 French teacher played Né en 17 à Leidenstadt, a song that questions how each of us would have responded had we been born in Germany in 1917, Northern Ireland during the Troubles or South Africa at the height of apartheid; we would all like to think that we would have held fast to what was right despite what we were taught but we can’t know with any level of certainty how we would have responded. If I had been abused like Joy was, married off as a teen and lost a child before being old enough to drink, I don’t know if I would have the strength to buck everything I had been taught. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

15 hours ago, Expectopatronus said:

I do too. I’m not sure how much free will any of them have left, especially the ones who were married off to super fundies. I don’t agree with any of their beliefs but I’m reminded of a song my grade 12 French teacher played Né en 17 à Leidenstadt, a song that questions how each of us would have responded had we been born in Germany in 1917, Northern Ireland during the Troubles or South Africa at the height of apartheid; we would all like to think that we would have held fast to what was right despite what we were taught but we can’t know with any level of certainty how we would have responded. If I had been abused like Joy was, married off as a teen and lost a child before being old enough to drink, I don’t know if I would have the strength to buck everything I had been taught. 

I feel like the Parler crowd are the SS, brownshirts, concentration camp guards, etc. 

[Daisy0322]

On 12/28/2020 at 10:57 PM, Expectopatronus said:

I do too. I’m not sure how much free will any of them have left, especially the ones who were married off to super fundies.... cut

Im thinking if you were raised fundie and married off to another person raised fundie, you both are probably to scared And brain washed to even bring up the topic of questioning your beliefs. 
 

what would the repercussions be?

Could your spouse “ turn you in” so to speak. 
 

they really brain wash these kids and marry them off before they have a chance to rethink anything. 

[Fundielandobserver]

On 12/22/2020 at 7:55 PM, FreeTheScapegoats said:

My personal theory on why some Duggars were snarked on while others had more good will granted is based on how outspoken they were on the show, or what gestures they used. Basically, if they rolled their eyes enough or sticked it to gender roles enough, they were considered ones to look out for as potential escapees, and thus judged less harshly. Jessa comes to mind, snarky from the start and far from a doormat to her husband. Jana as well, as she wanted to believe in evolution and was apparently so wronged by the family since the jewelry box incident. Jinger and her city dreams.

That’s when Jill comes in- the goody two-shoes, Jim Bob’s favorite, announcing a pregnancy before the stick was dry. Three years ago, virtually nobody had hope for Jill. So, she was snarked harshly, because she *was* going  to become Michelle 2.0. Until she wasn’t, and people turned their tides. At the same time, Jinger showed how much of a malleable person she really was, liking cities for the aesthetic and not really for the possibilities (or was traumatized into emptiness, but that’s still far from the Jinger ideal that got this site named) and Jessa and Jana proved themselves as true believers to the core.

Now, most of that applies to Joy as well, with the caveat that she was actually seen as a little girl in the first special. The older girls were first shown already parentified. Joy was a little girl who acted as such. In fact, she was a tomboy- sticking it to gender roles! The audience actually got to see her grow up. They- we- felt sorry for her when she was separated from her brothers because she was a tween/teen. She kept up with the eyerolls and all. People thought she was just bidding her time until she turned 18 and could move with Cousin Amy. Then, she didn’t.

Long before Annabell, it was easier for people to see Joy as a mere victim of the cult. She’s no different than the others in that aspect, but with her, it was seen in real time, so to say. Her dispositions were squashed, she was separated from her brothers, she was married off very young- the first Duggar teen bride- she lost a child at an age most are still figuring themselves out. She wasn’t just someone who rolled her eyes enough to be considered a possible escapee- she was someone people saw grow up. People want the best for her, to realize how much damage was done to her and break the cycle. The thing is, she won’t. She doubled down, even- not only did she join Parler, she was public about it. It’s just harder for most because we all *saw* her when she was little.

I wonder how it will be with the Lost Girls as they come of age. They may not have been seen as much post 19KAC, but they were still born on TV. I’m just worried in a way people will take it personally with, say, Jenni, if she doesn’t run to Jill’s house the second she turns 18.

My theory is it's all about look's ....Jessa  and the rest all are pretty good looking compared to dillards and their kids too so they have a big fan following instagrammer followers and secret leg humpers in fj !

[GuineaPigCourtship]

I think Jill wasn't as social media savvy and showed too much plus her husband is very outspoken about his beliefs. Joy doesn't post a ton, Jessa quickly learned how to lean on the cute kids and relatable mom schtick, and Jinger was the first to wear pants. It's easier to imagine they are more flexible when they're not posting about their beliefs or obvious mommy fails.

Jill is still one of the more followed Duggars, right? I don't really do Instagram and I never watched the show so I didn't see Joy growing up in real time but I can see why she came across as a more sympathetic figure than Jill at first glance.

[Peaches-n-Beans]

On 1/1/2021 at 4:09 PM, GuineaPigCourtship said:

I think Jill wasn't as social media savvy and showed too much plus her husband is very outspoken about his beliefs. Joy doesn't post a ton, Jessa quickly learned how to lean on the cute kids and relatable mom schtick, and Jinger was the first to wear pants. It's easier to imagine they are more flexible when they're not posting about their beliefs or obvious mommy fails.

Jill is still one of the more followed Duggars, right? I don't really do Instagram and I never watched the show so I didn't see Joy growing up in real time but I can see why she came across as a more sympathetic figure than Jill at first glance.

I watched the show, and I'm the same age as Joy with some change (she's a few months younger or older honestly I can't remember) so I've always followed her pretty closely because when she was a kid and I was a kid watching the show (pretty much right after their first special all the way until the 19KAC ended. I don't keep up with Counting on as much because honestly when it started I couldn't stand Jill, and I've never liked Jessa. 

Now though? That's almost a complete 180. I love following Jill, though I don't agree with any of her political or religious beliefs, it's nice to watch her move more and more mainstream even if she is staying conservative because of how hard it's had to be to move even that far from the cult. It might not seem like much but there's a big difference between STDRT and public school, it signifies a certain lack of control. SO while Jill and Derek might remain bigots with hateful beliefs for their whole lives it doesn't mean Izzie and Sam will. They'll be exposed to a hell of a lot more then Jill ever was. 

[lexiloumarie]

Someone on here (or hulu) guessed many, many years ago that Joy would be the youngest girl married off of the older girls precisely because of what we've already said. She visibly struggled with "taking on her parents faith as her own" in her own words.

We saw the snarky teen saying she's not meant for pants and dresses. We saw her play with the boys and hang with Amy. I can't imagine the pressure Joe and the others put on her the caused her to be rushed into marriage before she was 20.