Joy & Austin 31: Adding Evelyn Mae

[LilMissMetaphor]

Sigh...

I don't give a shit about the actual status of Joy's heart nor do I care to discuss Chump.

Just saying that this always, always devolves into the same argument.  "There's so much sadness in their eyes", based on a picture.... wut...You don't know that.  You don't know the status of someone's goodness or evil level.   All the more so because we don't even all agree on the definition of a "good" or "bad" heart.  

 

 

[wendy-sparkles]

I think we can safely say Joy and Austin are more extreme politically than many (most?) of her siblings (who I already consider fairly extreme), given that they belong to that "freedomist' group. Is she the only one to join Parler as well? I think there might be Duggars who are just single issue republican voters, but Joy is absolutely not one of them. 

[Not that josh's mom]

1 hour ago, BernRul said:

They attended the Young Republican Arkansas convention, Austin has very Trumpy conservative friends if I recall correctly, and they both joined Parler, which is not just "Republican" but hardcore QAnon level conspiracies. If she didn't know when she was a kid (doubtful--go google the video of the Duggars endorsing Rick Santorum, where they specifically use the racist dog whistle "strong borders") in the last 3 years she's certainly been exposed.

But whatever, her simply being "willfully ignorant" instead of outright bigoted makes me feel a lot better about her voting to destroy my family (and unborn child, for the pro-life people)'s life.

I dont condone her opinions or her voting. But I do think there are thousands of "willfully ignorant " voters. Those voters will never see anything wrong with supporting Trump no matter what. They will never see things rationally and will vote for him again. Its sad.

[artdecades]

2 hours ago, wendy-sparkles said:

I think we can safely say Joy and Austin are more extreme politically than many (most?) of her siblings (who I already consider fairly extreme), given that they belong to that "freedomist' group. Is she the only one to join Parler as well? I think there might be Duggars who are just single issue republican voters, but Joy is absolutely not one of them. 

I don’t think we can safely say that at all. First of all, Jed! is also involved with them and as we have seen the whole family supported his political aspirations. Second, just because they don’t follow a certain group doesn’t mean they disagree with them. They all follow people with abhorrent beliefs like Allie Stuckey. 

[JordynDarby5]

3 hours ago, xenobia said:

Fun fact: We don't have six-hour workdays in Sweden. And we have very regular socks. 

I knew it was too good to be true.

[ophelia]

I hope it is not a stupid question, but what are freedomists? I get a ton of google results, but I don't really get it? Is it a political movement or a conspiracy narrative or both?

[Idlewild]

@ophelia it’s a bunch of conservative young people - they seem to operate on Instagram mainly and lecture people on politics. They’re pro Trump, pro guns and try to pretend they’re young, bright and well informed. They did an interview with Joy and Austin earlier in the year.

[Glasgowghirl]

I think it is complex when it comes to fundies having a good heart or not because they genuinely believe a lot of the time that what they are doing is right and for people's benefit, that is what makes Joy and others so dangerous because they look like people. 

[SassyPants]

2 hours ago, Idlewild said:

@ophelia it’s a bunch of conservative young people - they seem to operate on Instagram mainly and lecture people on politics. They’re pro Trump, pro guns and try to pretend they’re young, bright and well informed. They did an interview with Joy and Austin earlier in the year.

I absolutely hate when uneducated, dim witted people attempt to lecture others. If Joy is doing this, the JB gene really does run strong.

[Glasgowghirl]

3 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I absolutely hate when uneducated, dim witted people attempt to lecture others. If Joy is doing this, the JB gene really does run strong.

When Jim Bob and Michelle used to talk about stuff on the show that they thought made them sound educated but it really didn't it pissed me off. 

[Expectopatronus]

I would be super interested to talk to any of the Gen 2 female duggars away from their husbands and JB and see what they really think/say on a variety of issues. They have all been so programmed to just support males that we will never know what Jinger, Joy etc truly think about DACA, babies being put in cages etc. In order to have the ability to actively choose to stay/leave the cult you have to have the ability to think critically. This is beaten out of so many fundie kids that I’m not convinced they really are free to choose. 
These families would make fascinating doctoral thesis subjects for a research study in brain development and isolation\ propaganda indoctrination. 

[SassyPants]

15 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

I would be super interested to talk to any of the Gen 2 female duggars away from their husbands and JB and see what they really think/say on a variety of issues. They have all been so programmed to just support males that we will never know what Jinger, Joy etc truly think about DACA, babies being put in cages etc. In order to have the ability to actively choose to stay/leave the cult you have to have the ability to think critically. This is beaten out of so many fundie kids that I’m not convinced they really are free to choose. 
These families would make fascinating doctoral thesis subjects for a research study in brain development and isolation\ propaganda indoctrination. 

This is why I find Jill and Derick so interesting. He has shown Jill that her parents’ approach was likely not very healthy or even Christ based. He has helped her to see that education, friends, brick and mortar church and active family planning, including the use of BC, is not anti-Christian. 

[FluffySnowball]

16 hours ago, JordynDarby5 said:

I knew it was too good to be true.

But one can dream... ?

4 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

This is why I find Jill and Derick so interesting. He has shown Jill that her parents’ approach was likely not very healthy or even Christ based. He has helped her to see that education, friends, brick and mortar church and active family planning, including the use of BC, is not anti-Christian. 

You’re absolutely right and their (ongoing) development is very interesting to watch. Still, Jill’s “homosexuality is a sin”-stance in one of her last Q&A Videos enraged me. Babe steps, I know, and I’m aware I hope for/expect too much, but still... 

[BernRul]

22 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

Sigh...

I don't give a shit about the actual status of Joy's heart nor do I care to discuss Chump.

Just saying that this always, always devolves into the same argument.  "There's so much sadness in their eyes", based on a picture.... wut...You don't know that.  You don't know the status of someone's goodness or evil level.   All the more so because we don't even all agree on the definition of a "good" or "bad" heart.  

 

 

 

You can call it black and white thinking. But I think people who belong to a group that's been marganilized are within their rights to say the people enabling their abuse/discrimination do not have "good hearts."

My husband has DACA, so we are apart of that group that's actively suffered because of Joy's actions. That's only one group of many.

I never called Joy evil, btw, in fact I said she could change and redeem herself. I never said she wasn't nuanced--in fact, I called her a nuanced person. But the people who supported Jim Crow were also nuanced. The people who owned slaves were nuanced. The people who supported the genocides in Nazi Germany, Rwanda, Cambodia etc were nuanced, every day people. They weren't good either. Complicated, and "good" to the people around them, but evil to their victims.

That's what Trump supporters are. Good to some people, yes, complicated individuals, yes, but enablers or great evil.  I'm honestly sick of polite society making excuses for them under the guise of being above "black and white"thinking. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by BernRul

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

On 11/16/2020 at 8:34 PM, Not that josh's mom said:

I dont condone her opinions or her voting. But I do think there are thousands of "willfully ignorant " voters. Those voters will never see anything wrong with supporting Trump no matter what. They will never see things rationally and will vote for him again. Its sad.

There are also plenty of "rational" Trump voters. This article, passed along by a friend, was a very interesting read to me, as I still try to make sense of why the f* there are 70M people who voted for Trump in 2020...

https://thecorrespondent.com/790/not-every-trump-voter-is-racist-or-misled-theres-a-rational-trump-voter-too/846649476420-2ff85060?fbclid=IwAR1vJ5Zc2nO6stxQGsv_4-WrDXb7TNj-hM6qj6qp5XfRb5MPtX17rucUCGI

TL, DR: "Joe Biden won the US elections last week. But Donald Trump still got a record-breaking 71 million votes. These can’t all be explained away by ignorance and racism. There’s a rational Trump voter who we need to understand if we want to keep the forces of populism at bay."

Edited November 18, 2020 by Shouldabeenacowboy

[purple_summer]

3 hours ago, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

TL, DR: "Joe Biden won the US elections last week. But Donald Trump still got a record-breaking 71 million votes. These can’t all be explained away by ignorance and racism. There’s a rational Trump voter who we need to understand if we want to keep the forces of populism at bay."

“I’m not a racist but violent racism isn’t a deal breaker” is not the sign of a rational voter. 

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

3 hours ago, purple_summer said:

“I’m not a racist but violent racism isn’t a deal breaker” is not the sign of a rational voter. 

I re-read the article I linked several times, and I don’t see this statement/quote anywhere, unless I’m blatantly missing it. Did you read the article at all ?

I agree with your statement entirely, but I’m afraid that’s not the point of this article at all.

[Jinder Roles]

I really don’t like the construction of that article. 
 

There are plenty of rational people (at least what we consider rational in our Western society) that are racist. 
 

Racism isn’t always a result of ignorance or conscious/intentional hatred. 
 

The 71 million people who voted for Trump have told us what they value. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jinder Roles

[Sabine]

8 hours ago, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

There are also plenty of "rational" Trump voters. This article, passed along by a friend, was a very interesting read to me, as I still try to make sense of why the f* there are 70M people who voted for Trump in 2020...

https://thecorrespondent.com/790/not-every-trump-voter-is-racist-or-misled-theres-a-rational-trump-voter-too/846649476420-2ff85060?fbclid=IwAR1vJ5Zc2nO6stxQGsv_4-WrDXb7TNj-hM6qj6qp5XfRb5MPtX17rucUCGI

TL, DR: "Joe Biden won the US elections last week. But Donald Trump still got a record-breaking 71 million votes. These can’t all be explained away by ignorance and racism. There’s a rational Trump voter who we need to understand if we want to keep the forces of populism at bay."

If Donald Trump getting 71 million voters  (currently standing a 73 million or 47.2% is record breaking what are Joe Bidens 79,513,515 votes or 51%  (not yet including Georgia) ? Seriously? And anyone who voted for Trump, rational or not, condones racism, voter disenfranchisement, caging babies, deporting parents without their children, rampant misogynism and has no issue with lying, theft, just to name a few. So yeah, nah, no such thing as a rational Trump voter, but at least 73 million who have no issue with the shitheel that Trump is. And that goes for the Duggar crowd. in 2016 these people had the benefit of the doubt, in 2020 they are complicit. And that includes being complicit in the outright murder of 250.000 people due to Covid. 

[Nothing if not critical]

So the gist of the article is that those "rational" voters aren't racist - they're just so incredibly selfish that they don't care at all who suffers as long as they make more money? More than that, they don't care about the future of the planet, they don't care about social injustice, they don't care about the fact that their president supports domestic terrorists... the list goes on and on.

 I'm sorry but I completely fail to see how that's a rational point of view. Greedy and selfish and incredibly short-sighted, yes. But not what I'd call rational.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

I have a friend who's daughter commented about not following politics, but couldn't understand how anyone could vote for Biden, he was so "creepy" and awful. I was STUNNED by this statement, I pointed out that trump would look at her 1/2 black 1/2 Columbian son and think he was less than human. I pointed out with evidence that trump was a horrific racist and that I couldn't believe she supported him, and that maybe she SHOULD pay better attention to politics before she votes solely on hearsay. She too was shocked she had no idea, she'd not heard any of that only listened to her trump loving friends, in Florida. She DM'd me a few days later and said OMG what did I do, I can't believe I voted for him, I'm going to have to explain that to my son someday, how I supported a man to thought he was subhuman. Too bad she didn't say something BEFORE the election, I maybe could have gotten her to change her mind and at the very lest NOT voted for trump, not that it would have mattered in FL, or Iowa where she used to live, but any votes we can take away from that fucker is a good thing. 

 

[SassyPants]

6 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I have a friend who's daughter commented about not following politics, but couldn't understand how anyone could vote for Biden, he was so "creepy" and awful. I was STUNNED by this statement, I pointed out that trump would look at her 1/2 black 1/2 Columbian son and think he was less than human. I pointed out with evidence that trump was a horrific racist and that I couldn't believe she supported him, and that maybe she SHOULD pay better attention to politics before she votes solely on hearsay. She too was shocked she had no idea, she'd not heard any of that only listened to her trump loving friends, in Florida. She DM'd me a few days later and said OMG what did I do, I can't believe I voted for him, I'm going to have to explain that to my son someday, how I supported a man to thought he was subhuman. Too bad she didn't say something BEFORE the election, I maybe could have gotten her to change her mind and at the very lest NOT voted for trump, not that it would have mattered in FL, or Iowa where she used to live, but any votes we can take away from that fucker is a good thing. 

 

Does she not have a TV or computer? Had she never heard him speak? 

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

4 hours ago, Nothing if not critical said:

So the gist of the article is that those "rational" voters aren't racist - they're just so incredibly selfish that they don't care at all who suffers as long as they make more money? More than that, they don't care about the future of the planet, they don't care about social injustice, they don't care about the fact that their president supports domestic terrorists... the list goes on and on.

 I'm sorry but I completely fail to see how that's a rational point of view. Greedy and selfish and incredibly short-sighted, yes. But not what I'd call rational.

I think so (bolded mine). They certainly condone racism, openly or tacitly - which, in my book, puts them squarely in the racist bucket for sure.

I disagree they are not rational. It seems to me that each category of people in the article are making a voting choice - for very different reasons- that promotes their individual or (limited) group interest, with little consideration to the well-being and future of others. We can agree that this behavior is unethical, socially unjust, greedy, selfish, and, quite honestly, morally repugnant. However, in the classic economic sense, preserving one's interests and gains is rational behavior. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Shouldabeenacowboy

[Giraffe]

@allthegoodnamesrgone, I’m sure she’s not alone in her ignorance. I know of a couple people who vote republican and that’s that. Nothing else matters to them because they won’t be caught dead voting democrat and so nothing the individual candidate does matters so what’s the point of paying any attention. It’s infuriating!

[OrchidBlossom]

9 hours ago, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

I think so (bolded mine). They certainly condone racism, openly or tacitly - which, in my book, puts them squarely in the racist bucket for sure.

I disagree they are not rational. It seems to me that each category of people in the article are making a voting choice - for very different reasons- that promotes their individual or (limited) group interest, with little consideration to the well-being and future of others. We can agree that this behavior is unethical, socially unjust, greedy, selfish, and, quite honestly, morally repugnant. However, in the classic economic sense, preserving one's interests and gains is rational behavior. 

I think it depends on how you look at rationality. If someone believes that Trump will be the best option for them voting for him is rational if you think that putting your own needs above community needs is the rational choice. I read this study a long time ago so excuse me for not having it to hand, though I'll see if I can drag it up, but it is a studied fact that conservative voters tend to place a larger emphasis on what is personally good for them, not out of lack of concern for others inherently (although in my personal opinion a lack of concern for others does drive many Trump voters), but often due to a belief that what is good for them will be good for others. Obviously this is a fallacy that ignores the many ways that someone can be disempowered socio-politically or can simply have divergent needs and interests from that particular voter, but it does explain how a Trump voter can be "rational" by their worldview.

To be extremely clear, I don't think there is any rational excuse for condoning racism, and do not consider voting for Trump a rational choice, I just can see how one could label a Trump voter rational and not be lying, but rather using a different perspective on what constitutes rationality.

Edited November 20, 2020 by OrchidBlossom
clarity