8 Passengers: Youtuber's Take Son's Bed and Refuse to Give Daughter Lunch

[JermajestyDuggar]

53 minutes ago, Pammy said:

I'm having an introspective moment because I watched bits of those videos, and I'm just not sure I would have seen any problem at all with these people -- on my own, at first glance. That's one of the things I appreciate FJ for: it teaches me how to see things that I don't immediately pick up on.

So I don't want to say, "I'm not seeing the dysfunction." -- because it's there. I get it. But I want to ask: "What should I be looking for?" -- how can I become observant of the right sorts of things? How did you guys clue-in that this isn't just a normal family thoughtfully enrolling their beloved kid in a program that's going to meet his needs? What are the covert red flags here?

Excessive punishments are always a huge red flag for me. Like others have said, extremely long punishments like 7 months of having your bed taken away is excessive and pretty pointless. Extreme strictness is also a red flag. It’s not healthy parenting. They are what you call authoritarian parents. Here is an easy explanation: https://www.parentingforbrain.com/4-baumrind-parenting-styles/

[Marmion]

On 6/7/2020 at 2:31 PM, hoipolloi said:

 John Rosemond, a fucking asshole who is also a very popular parenting psychologist, has long recommended removing a child's or adolescent's bedroom door:

 

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Rosemond's radio show on parenting, "Because I Said So!" aired on American Family Radio on Saturdays at 6pm EST until July 2018.[1][2]

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rosemond#Radio   

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AFR was launched by Rev. Donald Wildmon in 1991 as a ministry of the American Family Association, with the flagship station being WAFRin Tupelo, Mississippi.[4][5] It originally aired a contemporary Christian music format.[6] Christian talk and teaching programs were also featured.[7] Eventually, American Family Radio included three networks – Classic Gospel; a Christian AC network; and Inspirational, which included Christian talk and teaching programs.[5][8][9] In 2009, American Family Radio launched AFR Talk, and most of its stations joined the new network.[10] The Christian AC network was discontinued at this time.[10] At its peak, American Family Radio was heard on over 200 stations

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Family_Radio#History  On the topic of this thread , I am reminded of the reference to " Love and Logic " parenting , mentioned in this other thread here .  https://www.freejinger.org/search/?q="love and logic"&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy

[TuringMachine]

Does anyone know anything about the place they sent Chad too?

[FluffySnowball]

2 hours ago, Pammy said:

I'm having an introspective moment because I watched bits of those videos, and I'm just not sure I would have seen any problem at all with these people -- on my own, at first glance. That's one of the things I appreciate FJ for: it teaches me how to see things that I don't immediately pick up on.

So I don't want to say, "I'm not seeing the dysfunction." -- because it's there. I get it. But I want to ask: "What should I be looking for?" -- how can I become observant of the right sorts of things? How did you guys clue-in that this isn't just a normal family thoughtfully enrolling their beloved kid in a program that's going to meet his needs? What are the covert red flags here?

That’s a really tough but excellent question! I guess a couple of things one should look out for are the following aspects:

1. Do the parents (frequently) act in ways that humiliate the children? Do the children ask not to be filmed or not to discuss a particular topic on camera but are ignored, for instance? 

2. If parents discuss discipline, do their methods seem excessive? And do they punish their children for reasonable “misdeeds”, or do they sanction every minuscule thing?

3. Do the parents show a reasonable (I’m aware that’s in the eye of the beholder, but I wanna mention it regardless) amount of love, appreciation, and affection towards (all) their children (equally)? Does their praise outweigh their annoyance with how the kids behave? 

4. Are there any indications (including your gut feeling) that some members of a household are scared of other members (e.g. are the kids scared of the parents and/or scared of a sibling)? 

5. Do the parents film degrading and/or embarrassing moments of their children and publish them online? 

6. Do the parents publicly shame their kids, e.g. as a form of punishment. 

7. Do the parents make sure their children’s privacy is somewhat respected, or do they talk a little everything from grades to crushed and doctors visits? Are there any boundaries apparent and/or explicitly mentioned? 

8. Do the children appear to be developing well? I know that most of us aren’t doctors or psychologists and cannot always accurately tell, but once again, our gut feeling might help and we can ask ourselves: Do children seem lively and well-fed and is there any mention of friends, free time activities and aspirations? Does it seem like the kids are groomed to fit into a seemingly perfect social media family or can they express themselves and their individuality? 

Those are my two cents... Any additional ideas are appreciated, I just briefly brainstormed... 

[Aine]

2 hours ago, Pammy said:

I'm having an introspective moment because I watched bits of those videos, and I'm just not sure I would have seen any problem at all with these people -- on my own, at first glance. That's one of the things I appreciate FJ for: it teaches me how to see things that I don't immediately pick up on.

So I don't want to say, "I'm not seeing the dysfunction." -- because it's there. I get it. But I want to ask: "What should I be looking for?" -- how can I become observant of the right sorts of things? How did you guys clue-in that this isn't just a normal family thoughtfully enrolling their beloved kid in a program that's going to meet his needs? What are the covert red flags here?

@FluffySnowball's response covers just about everything that I would look for. I will also add to it:

• Are the children respected as individuals? Can they express their needs and wants and have those things met in some way? Can they have their individual likes/dislikes? Obviously, not all wants (particularly material wants) should be met by parents, especially immediately, but can their desires be heard and empathized with, can they discuss these things with their parents, and do their parents try to guide and advise them towards fulfilling goals (with the caveat that such goals are realistic and in-line with family values for the most part).
• Are they given a developmentally appropriate amount of personal freedom? In childhood, that might be engaging in appropriate activities that they prefer or having an opinion and feeling comfortable talking openly about it with their parents. In the teenage years, this becomes especially important. It is developmentally appropriate for all children, regardless of age, to push boundaries and effective parents place boundaries in a loving and clear way that they can explain to the child. These boundaries should shift to an extent as the child gets older, so they are able to function as an independent adult that doesn't require supervision eventually. Mistakes, by teenagers, especially will be made as their peer group becomes more salient in their life (developmentally appropriate), they go through puberty, and maybe begin having romantic relationships or a desire to have a romantic relationship. But a teen who is afraid of being caught and who isn't trusted by their parents or who can't discuss a certain amount of their life with a trusted adult and seek guidance is more likely to get themselves in some trouble eventually.
• On developmentally appropriate behavior as well- parents who don't take into account the effect of puberty on a young person and punish them (especially in a punitive way like this family) for quick and extreme mood changes or emotional reactions are not doing a service to their kid. Hormonal changes are literally changing how their brain works! That doesn't mean letting them get away with things but it should be taken into account in dealing with your teen. It's a bit like trying to reason with a toddler who is in the midst of a tantrum- you cannot reason with a toddler in a tantrum! Hell, there are plenty of adults who cannot be reasoned with when they are in a heightened emotional state. I constantly see parents who try to reason with their teen and think for some reason that kid, who is undergoing big physiological and social changes in their life, is refusing to listen or calm down when they are in that state. It's a great time to teach/encourage coping skills- removing themselves from the room or others to calm down, deep breathing, distraction etc- and then discuss when calm and if there needs to be consequences, they should be proportional to the action and as natural of a consequence as possible.

With these parents, I see adults who have not mastered their own emotional regulation and they act in a punitive and vindictive way, even taking glee in their assumed "power" over their kids, because it makes them feel in control. But really, they are stunting their children's emotional, social, and even physiological development (toxic stress, constantly "walking on eggshells" effects brain development and the entire body) and their self-esteem.

[JermajestyDuggar]

They seemingly brag about their harsh punishments and its so strange. That’s the last thing I would brag about on social media. It makes me wonder if they think they are being great parents and showing off. As if they think the stricter they are, the better they are as parents. 

[clueliss]

1 hour ago, TuringMachine said:

Does anyone know anything about the place they sent Chad too?

It’s anasazi Foundation.  I scrolled thru the Instagram account and a post has a link.  
 

Spoiler

[feministxtian]

Introvert and socializing: I'm a serious, homebody introvert. I LOVE being by myself. Now I'm teaching 4 hours a day 4 days a week. I came home today and crashed. While I love teaching and I love what I'm teaching, it's exhausting to have to run my mouth for a couple hours of class every day, interact with students, all that stuff. Oh well...it's mostly fun and it pays well. I like it better than being in an office

 

[clueliss]

And it looks like he was there 10 weeks.  From the sound of the videos I linked earlier, he spent that time in a sleeping bag in the ground (no tent) I the mountains in Arizona.  

[llucie]

I watched a few of their videos a while ago when i read they were sending their kid to a  survival camp for misbehaving. There is lots of mormon vloggers, but they usually completely avoid the religion topic. This family does not. To me they seem very religious. 

The mother usually ask very personal questions to the kids on camera, and then while they reply instead of looking at them, she looks directly at the camera, like she is recording some weird documentary on her kids and is completely detached from them.

She is also super controlling and seems to want to isolate the kids. Chad has said he no longer has friends since he had to give up his old friends because they were a bad influence (there is constant talk about how a bad kid he is, i have no idea if he really is or if he is just not conforming with the mormon perfect image his parents want, in any case it seems awfull to constantly put out there videos puting such a label on one of their children). He is also not allowed to learn how to drive, since he is not "mature" enought acording to his parents. She also took away their phones and ipads. She expresed how happy she is that due to coronavirus they are all stuck at home all day with her. Luckily she seems to be too lazy to homeschool.

Edited June 9, 2020 by llucie
spelling

[clueliss]

FYI this family moved to a new house in December.  So, depending on the timing of the now scrubbed “I have no friends” vid, that may be playing a part here.  
 

timeline (if anyone knows some of the unknowns such as when scrubbed videos that criticism vlogs are showing it would be helpful):

Chad sent to Arizona camp ~August (seemed to be before school started)

Chad returns from this camp ~ mid to late October 

At some point in here Eve forgets her lunch,  “lies” about having packed her lunch and Ruby gets a call from teacher,  tells teacher to not feed her.  Eve is in kindergarten.  

Family moved in mid December.  This move changed the church they went to which not only moved kids away from neighborhood friends but church friends as well,  

I’ve seen a video where Ruby, before schools shut down from covid19 had a parent teacher conference with Eve’s teacher.  Ruby insinuates that the teacher understands what Ruby was doing and agrees with her.  

Ruby and Kevin (the husband) go to St. Maarten with other Mormon blogger couples during pandemic (with an overnight stay in NYC on the way there when NYC was When there was community spread)

While in couples vacay Salt Lake City Earthquake happens and they rush back home.  Shari (oldest) seems to be home with her siblings when this happened.  Shari is a junior in high school.  

Covid19 closes schools and puts the family all at home.  

Crap hits the fan with exposing videos and criticism.  

 

[Gobsmacked]

I've been trying to catch up with this family. Based on my own experiences Ruby is a passive aggressive narccasist bitch. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I bet the children enjoy being left home alone with Shari as their caretaker. Although I doubt Shari likes it. 

[clueliss]

I’ve given Shari sister mom status.

 

i found this one interesting,  She flooded the house. She eventually gets into the entire story of what happens. But this person study to be a life coach can’t remember to pay the water and electric bill.

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In this one, she changes the rules on them, without warning.  And Dad is more or less in on this.  
 

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Youngest two trash older sister’s bedroom.  (Note mattress on the floor). Kids decided to build a blanket fort.  Mom tells Daughter to pick up the blankets.  Daughter complies.  Kids upset so trash bedroom.  Mom’s fault.  And mo. Is studying to be a life coach, 

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[clueliss]

On Instagram there’s this gem (and its why I’m questioning timing).  Eve acted out at their new church.  She was nervous.  She’s in kindergarten.  Ruby posted this as yet unscrubbed.  With the history of deleting I’ve done screen shots.  
 

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[JermajestyDuggar]

I feel so bad for Eve. She can’t seem to do anything right in her mother’s eyes and it’s blasted all over social media.

[llucie]

1 hour ago, clueliss said:

FYI this family moved to a new house in December.  So, depending on the timing of the now scrubbed “I have no friends” vid, that may be playing a part here.  
 

timeline (if anyone knows some of the unknowns such as when scrubbed videos that criticism vlogs are showing it would be helpful):

Chad sent to Arizona camp ~August (seemed to be before school started)

Chad returns from this camp ~ mid to late October 

At some point in here Eve forgets her lunch,  “lies” about having packed her lunch and Ruby gets a call from teacher,  tells teacher to not feed her.  Eve is in kindergarten.  

Family moved in mid December.  This move changed the church they went to which not only moved kids away from neighborhood friends but church friends as well,  

I’ve seen a video where Ruby, before schools shut down from covid19 had a parent teacher conference with Eve’s teacher.  Ruby insinuates that the teacher understands what Ruby was doing and agrees with her.  

Ruby and Kevin (the husband) go to St. Maarten with other Mormon blogger couples during pandemic (with an overnight stay in NYC on the way there when NYC was When there was community spread)

While in couples vacay Salt Lake City Earthquake happens and they rush back home.  Shari (oldest) seems to be home with her siblings when this happened.  Shari is a junior in high school.  

Covid19 closes schools and puts the family all at home.  

Crap hits the fan with exposing videos and criticism.  

 

But they didnt change schools right? At least i think they go to the same private mormon school. Except Chad that was expelled and now goes to public school.

[Pleiades_06]

44 minutes ago, llucie said:

But they didnt change schools right? At least i think they go to the same private mormon school. Except Chad that was expelled and now goes to public school.

What was he expelled for?

I’ve been wondering if the school was a super uptight Mormon school and he rebelled against that. Or did he do that warranted expulsion, like fighting?

[Gobsmacked]

59 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I feel so bad for Eve. She can’t seem to do anything right in her mother’s eyes and it’s blasted all over social media.

Eve is the scapegoat child. I haven't worked out who is the golden child yet. Chad was the scapegoat child. Eve now has his place. Possibly because Ruby wanted another boy. Eve had the cheek to be born a girl. Same situation as Zsu with Chloe. 

[FluffySnowball]

36 minutes ago, Pleiades_06 said:

What was he expelled for?

I’ve been wondering if the school was a super uptight Mormon school and he rebelled against that. Or did he do that warranted expulsion, like fighting?

I’m not entirely sure because I had never watched a single video of them until recently.

But I did watch a clip yesterday in which Ruby tells Chad that his former school’s principle let’s him know he loves him (that’s an inappropriate way of wording his sentiments IMO, but these fundies seem to always talk like that) and once Chad has more humility, his expulsion can be overturned. And Chad is like, noooo, I don’t wanna go back there, I never want to go to this school again. Then, Ruby goes on and on about him learning more humility and he needs to become much more humble. She’s an evil witch...

She and Kevin seem to push the idea that the individual means nothing and the family unit means everything. I saw another clip (different video, IIRC) in which Kevin goes on and on about how unnecessary the word “l” is, that it shouldn’t even be a part of the English language and how much better it would be if people just thought of themselves in their family unit as a collective “we”. That’s emotionally unhealthy and absolutely sucks!!! 

I hope Chad has the spirit and confidence to escape this suffocating family once he turns 18! 

Edited June 9, 2020 by FluffySnowball

[Pleiades_06]

6 minutes ago, FluffySnowball said:

once Chad has more humility, his expulsion can be overturned.

That alone says everything I need to know about the school. I wouldn’t want to go back there either.

Wtf. I agree with you about him escaping this.

[llucie]

1 hour ago, Pleiades_06 said:

What was he expelled for?

I’ve been wondering if the school was a super uptight Mormon school and he rebelled against that. Or did he do that warranted expulsion, like fighting?

I dont think they said why. Just bad behaviour. But the mother did say that he just needed to apologize and he would get re-admited, but Chad refused to apologize. He said he prefers to go to public school.

[Alisamer]

5 minutes ago, llucie said:

I dont think they said why. Just bad behaviour. But the mother did say that he just needed to apologize and he would get re-admited, but Chad refused to apologize. He said he prefers to go to public school.

That makes it sound (to me) like he did or said something totally normal that they didn't like, so he got expelled. Like maybe he asked a question about an aspect of their faith he didn't agree with, or something. Most people (excepting a certain orange reality TV star) will apologize if they've done something wrong, so refusing indicates to me that he believes he did nothing wrong.

[teachergirl]

holy cow, as a teacher, that would warrant a phone call to CPS or at the very least, talking to admin, guidance counselor, school nurse...and I would never let a child go hungry no matter what their parents said.

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, Alisamer said:

That makes it sound (to me) like he did or said something totally normal that they didn't like, so he got expelled. Like maybe he asked a question about an aspect of their faith he didn't agree with, or something. Most people (excepting a certain orange reality TV star) will apologize if they've done something wrong, so refusing indicates to me that he believes he did nothing wrong.

I imagine Chad knew his private school sucked and preferred public school. He likely has way more freedom there. I can see him making a run for it when he graduates. These parents seem like the type that would treat adult children still living at home like they are preschoolers.