Gwen Shamblin Lara 13: Shut UP You Paper-Thin Chip Licker!

[Concerned1954]

More good points to rebut Remnant Fellowship (and that is really saying Gwen) propaganda.  It is important to remember that for Gwen to be all good and holy David had to be discredited.  

Another instance where you know Gwen did not suffer abuse is the very fact that Gwen portrays herself as a strong, independent woman, a leader, a prophet.  Would a woman who is "God's chosen leader", who has the financial wherewithal to leave an abusive situation, who always dedicated her books to her loving husband David, .......would such a woman have stayed in an abusive situation?  For 40 years?  

I hope the Michael and Elizabeth will actually consider some of these points.  I had heard that during the divorce mediation Gwen had their children in the room with her during negotiations.  Gwen propagandized their own children against their father.  Deep down they still love both parents, but they clearly picked a side.  The wrong side in my opinion.  So there is concern that Gwen's bullshit has had its intended effect.

The sad thing is that while every non-Remnant person who know both David and Gwen knows that David was a good husband who defended his wacko, megalomaniac wife and suffered quietly Gwen's excesses.   Gwen doesn't seem to have the capacity for empathy and understanding of others.   Textbook narcissist.  She uses people even family members to project her imagined "greatness" to the world.  But even family members can be cast aside.  Gwen's sister, brothers, husband (maybe plural eventually), co-workers, and kids are not safe from Gwen's banishing of them from her kingdom if they serve no purpose in her adoration.  

I welcome discussion.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, Concerned1954 said:

Another instance where you know Gwen did not suffer abuse is the very fact that Gwen portrays herself as a strong, independent woman, a leader, a prophet.  Would a woman who is "God's chosen leader", who has the financial wherewithal to leave an abusive situation, who always dedicated her books to her loving husband David, .......would such a woman have stayed in an abusive situation?  For 40 years?  

I am no apologist for Gwen, but yes.  It absolutely is possible for a strong, independent woman who has their own high level career to stay in an abusive relationship.  Even for decades.

An abusive relationship isn't about how strong or weak the victim is.  It's an insidious dynamic which warps your sense of normal, some people with traumatic childhoods may have never had a baseline for normal healthy relationships to begin with.

Abusive relationships can erode your self esteem to the point where leaving is as scary as staying.  And self-esteem isn't a one size fits all for all parts of your life.  You can be very confident and self-assured in work, with others, very competent and still not even know how to get out of a bad relationship due to the damage of that toxic dynamic.

Again - nothing to do with Gwen but this is a huge misconception about a very serious subject that affects so many.

[Concerned1954]

Ok let me be more accurate.   Would a woman who sees herself as a strong, independent, leader of all mankind, arbiter of who marries who, of such a strong ego, nay a woman who sees herself as the very essence of God's presence on earth, who pontificates on diet, marriage, divorce and actively manages everyone else's lifestyle....would that woman suffer even a slight insult from another?

What you say is true and understood.  But we are  talking about Gwen.  This is not a treatise on  human psychology of all people.  So simple questions Buffy.
 

Is Gwen self-centered?

Does Gwen portray herself as God's leader here on earth?

Is it probable that Gwen spread lies to cover her wrongdoing, her desire to marry another, so that she would still appear to be in God's favor to her minuscule congregation?

Would Gwen (not other wive or husbands), just the Great One herself, put up with abuse?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

23 minutes ago, Concerned1954 said:

What you say is true and understood.  But we are  talking about Gwen.  This is not a treatise on  human psychology of all people.  So simple questions Buffy.

I am not interested in answering your simple questions about a cult leader with bad hair.  I was interested in responding to your extrapolation of "such women" so I did.

You want to perpetuate a myth that strong willed women don't stay in abusive relationships don't expect to do it here without someone offering a counter point.

 

 

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Concerned1954 said:

The sad thing is that while every non-Remnant person who know both David and Gwen knows that David was a good husband who defended his wacko, megalomaniac wife and suffered quietly Gwen's excesses.   Gwen doesn't seem to have the capacity for empathy and understanding of others.   Textbook narcissist.  She uses people even family members to project her imagined "greatness" to the world.  But even family members can be cast aside.  Gwen's sister, brothers, husband (maybe plural eventually), co-workers, and kids are not safe from Gwen's banishing of them from her kingdom if they serve no purpose in her adoration.  

I welcome discussion.

It sounds like David supported her in building an abusive cult. He stood by while she treated their children poorly. He enabled her to hurt people. He defended her awful behavior. He may have been a good husband but anyone who supports their wife doing the things Gwen did to their children isn’t that good of a person. He profited from the pain of other people. He came out of this pretty well off.

[Concerned1954]

Buffy, sorry you disagree and digress from the point of this thread and conversation.  The questions were to focus you on the fact that Gwen's character,  and this thread is about Gwen, is not one to put up with abuse for forty years.  I would add, not meaning to but knowing it will piss you off, that logically a strong person, man or woman, does not put up with abuse.   Gwen has a strong character, strong ego, and strong financial  capacity to have left year ago.  She didn't hence it is just one of many factors that suggests she was not oppressed.  You didn't have to answer the questions because discussions on these threads already have.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, Concerned1954 said:

The questions were to focus you on the fact that Gwen's character,  and this thread is about Gwen, is not one to put up with abuse for forty years. 

Well, as much as I appreciate someone with 25 posts explaining to me what this thread is about might I suggest you take a gander at the FAQ, specifically the section on thread drift, which clearly explains we aren't required to stay on topic here.  

5 minutes ago, Concerned1954 said:

  I would add, not meaning to but knowing it will piss you off, that logically a strong person, man or woman, does not put up with abuse. 

You are absolutely full of shit.  This is a very damaging myth and if you think you're going to perpetuate this stuff here without someone calling you out on how completely wrong this is you are mistaken.

Your lack of understanding that there are factors at play in relationships that go far beyond logic....wow.

[Concerned1954]

7 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

It sounds like David supported her in building an abusive cult. He stood by while she treated their children poorly. He enabled her to hurt people. He defended her awful behavior. He may have been a good husband but anyone who supports their wife doing the things Gwen did to their children isn’t that good of a person. He profited from the pain of other people. He came out of this pretty well off.

Poor David is condemned at the same time as both enabler and oppressor.  Which is it, if any at all?

David did participate in the building of a weight loss business.  The children were never treated poorly.  He did defend his wife, but never her activity with Remnant.  Except to the extent that Gwen has a right under our laws to start her own religion however wacky and messed up it is. 

What exactly, please be specific, do you think Gwen did to her children ?  Gwen may have been overbearing and controlling but every parent can be accused of that.  Michael and Elizabeth were already adults when she started the cult.   What would you have David do?  "Please Gwen don't give our children financial support in the form of over compensated jobs?  Please don't buy our children homes?  What did David do wrong that constitutes enabling that anyone else would have done differently?

Where did he profit from the pain of others?  He lost money from all Gwen has dumped into her self-indulgent social club/church.  Money made from a legitimate weight loss business is not money that caused pain.    You want to know facts, ask me.   You want to gossip about things you believe, hell I'll talk about that too.

[Concerned1954]

3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Well, as much as I appreciate someone with 25 posts explaining to me what this thread is about might I suggest you take a gander at the FAQ, specifically the section on thread drift, which clearly explains we aren't required to stay on topic here.  

You are absolutely full of shit.  This is a very damaging myth and if you think you're going to perpetuate this stuff here without someone calling you out on how completely wrong this is you are mistaken.

Your lack of understanding that there are factors at play in relationships that go far beyond logic....wow.

Well you've emoted quite well, but you haven't explained the consistency of being strong and yet putting up with abuse.  You have successfully sidetracked the issue of Gwen's lies.  Of course can get off point on a thread and I'm sure Gwen is grateful, but you are turning discussion from substantive to  random, emotional rants.  Oh I only post when I feel it is necessary but have been reading this page since the beginning.  

I really don't want to be disagreeable with you (or Mrs. Beasley), but you yourself said that Gwen was an aside to your general theory that sometimes strong women tolerate abuse.  Again I ask you, based on everything said here about Gwen's personality, is she the type of woman to put up with abuse?  Obviously no.  Then throw into the mix that she has to justify getting a divorce and yet still remain leader of the remnants of Christianity, isn't it highly probable that Gwen is a liar who made this up.   

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, Concerned1954 said:

Well you've emoted quite well, but you haven't explained the consistency of being strong and yet putting up with abuse.  You have successfully sidetracked the issue of Gwen's lies.  Of course can get off point on a thread and I'm sure Gwen is grateful, but you are turning discussion from substantive to  random, emotional rants.  Oh I only post when I feel it is necessary but have been reading this page since the beginning.  

I really don't want to be disagreeable with you (or Mrs. Beasley), but you yourself said that Gwen was an aside to your general theory that sometimes strong women tolerate abuse.  Again I ask you, based on everything said here about Gwen's personality, is she the type of woman to put up with abuse?  Obviously no.  Then throw into the mix that she has to justify getting a divorce and yet still remain leader of the remnants of Christianity, isn't it highly probable that Gwen is a liar who made this up.   

To the bolded - I have no freaking idea what she is like in her private relationships.  None.  So I don't comment on her specifically.

I do, however, know far too much about the dynamics of abusive relationships and how damaging it is to spout nonsense like 

27 minutes ago, Concerned1954 said:

that logically a strong person, man or woman, does not put up with abuse.

to not point it out when someone spews that crap here.  

Human emotions are very complex when it comes to close relationships and many people have been so damaged by abusive relationships that within them their actions are counter to what one would expect from otherwise strong and independent people.  

I'm not arguing this with you as you clearly lack the ability to understand that intimate dynamics aren't black and white, nor that humans don't approach love with a purely logical reasoning.  That's fine, you are free to believe what you like.

I am rebutting your flawed premise not for you, but for others who may read here.  Damaging and untrue statements shouldn't stand unrefuted.  

[Destiny]

Strong women don't put up with abuse? Yikes. That's a horrible and damaging myth and I'm glad you called it out B.

There is no type of person who "puts up" with abuse. There's just a person, with complex reasons, who hasn't broken free. Strength has little to do with it. 

The start of an education: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/romance-redux/201303/why-do-people-stay-in-abusive-relationships

Edited August 5, 2020 by Destiny

[formergothardite]

41 minutes ago, Concerned1954 said:

Poor David is condemned at the same time as both enabler and oppressor.  Which is it, if any at all?

One can be both and you are the one who said he defended his wife. 

41 minutes ago, Concerned1954 said:

He did defend his wife, but never her activity with Remnant.  Except to the extent that Gwen has a right under our laws to start her own religion however wacky and messed up it i

So he defended her building a cult. Pretty shitty thing to do even if technically she can legally do it. 

41 minutes ago, Concerned1954 said:

What exactly, please be specific, do you think Gwen did to her children ? 

Gwen has told stories about denying her children food because she had decided they didn't need it. That is pretty damn bad especially since Gwen has showed up time and time again she is obsessed with the idea that children don't eat hardly anything. There are two option. David stood by while his children wanted to eat and his wife denied them food. Or he stood by while Gwen told lies about how she raised the children so she can rope in more cult members and taught that it was ok to deny children food. Either way, pretty shitty thing to do. 

41 minutes ago, Concerned1954 said:

What did David do wrong that constitutes enabling that anyone else would have done differently?

I think a lot of people wouldn't stand by while their spouse starts a cult. I'm not sure what sort of people you are hanging out with if you think most people would quietly sit by while their spouse starts a cult that tells people to go 36 hours without food and to cut off family members who show concern. 

 

41 minutes ago, Concerned1954 said:

Money made from a legitimate weight loss business is not money that caused pain. 

Her weight loss business teaches disordered eating and is AWFUL. So he didn't live in a giant mansion for years bought with money made selling terrible weight loss advice to vulnerable people? Nothing he has right now comes from Gwen's abusive teachings? Not one single dime? And I'm including money made from weigh down because that shit is nothing more than teaching people to have an eating disorder. 

If, from the start, David and stood up and said he wasn't supporting RF, that he didn't support her weight loss program that teaches disordered eating, would Gwen right now be a very wealthy cult leader? Probably not. But he supported her and she was the one who had to dump him. He apparently was down with having a wife that abused and exploited people. 

ETA: The damaged caused by Gwen/Weigh Down/RF has been discussed on the internet for years. And no way David didn't know since Gwen tended to sue people over this. So at best he is the sort of person who just shrugs when hearing his wife has hurt people and doesn't give one shit. 

Edited August 5, 2020 by formergothardite

[FilleMondaine]

Sorry--coming out of lurkdom. I'm a clinical social worker and survivor of abuse from my mum. Basically, I want to say: Porque no los dos? I am reading two different issues: Attempting to articulate the faulty mentality of Gwen, and also Righteous correction of patriarchal myths. I hope that you will let me un-tease them as I see them.

@Concerned1954 you do have a point that people with narcissistic personality disorders do not suffer even the whiff of perceived abuse. An example would be how Donald Trump takes the time to immediately insult perceived indignities from others, and then he stews and holds grudges. I am glad that you clarified from "strong independent women" , into "a sick person with personality disorders." (or something like that)  But I would like to invite you to take some time off commenting in order to read for a bit and come back. This is a pretty forgiving group when it comes to learning better.

I emphatically agree that @formergothardite, @HerNameIsBuffy, and @Destiny were absolutely right to call you out. And to also call out anyone else reading who privately thinks that strong women cannot be victims, and that honorable men cannot be abuse enablers. Even terrible women can be abused, and we can decry abuse while also disliking a person. It is a myth that needs to be corrected, and the truth should be taught in schools, on PBS, Very Special Episodes, any place we can think of. People die because of this. Look at Vanessa Guillen. Thank you, FJ-ers, for seeing a problem and calling it out! 

Back to personality disorders for example of how narcissists perceive things: My own mum pulled up the flowers from our neighbor's garden when their kid accidentally parked on "our part" of the street. She perceived abuse and insult, and so she took appropriate--to her--revenge.

My dad, a thoroughly honest and honorable man, was bent into enabling my mum. Good Christians don't divorce. Good men keep their promises at the alter. Honorable men defend their wives. The Christian family places the adults above the children, and so parents can raise and punish their children as they wish. That's how an "honorable man" gets trapped into an abusive family dynamic. But he was a grown-up, and should have done better. So he also has blame. Maybe it was the same for the Shamblins. Maybe not.

We can reasonably guess that Gwen has some sort of personality disorder, although cannot say for sure. We can say that there has been alleged abuse. We can speculate on anything we want to, and there is SO MUCH shadiness to speculate about this cult and its leader.

I suppose I want to end this like: We can all totally agree that abuse is bad-bad-bad-, and also that this cult is bad-bad-bad, even if we don't know all the details. 

Edited August 5, 2020 by FilleMondaine
That dad could have done something, as maybe Mr Shamblin could have done something earlier.

[PowerMad]

Like FilleMondaine, I had to come out of lurkdom to reply. I am in complete agreement with these posts about the fallacy of a strong independent woman not being a victim of abuse. It is a cruel and untrue statement. 

[throwaway9988]

I think everyone participating in this conversation has done a great job at clarifying and adding some nuance to the direction this thread has gone, and it made me want to share my personal experience with how a nonfundie spouse can slowly adjust to sharing finances/housing/parenting duties with a fundie spouse.  Do adjustments and compromises with the fundie spouse mean that they are complicit, or making the best out of a bad situation, or probably a lot of both?  I also know other people in this thread have had one parent adjust to the other parent joining Remnant, or are dealing with adjusting to a spouse joining the Remnant, so now seemed like a decent time to share my perspective on these sort of situations.

In my case, both of my parents were deeply religious and very concerned that they were following the "right" religion, and always very concerned with achieving eternal life even it that meant disregarding happiness or good relationships during their physical lives.  They knew each other weren't perfect, they had sporadic fights, but they always knew they both loved each other and their children and that any disagreements could be viewed through a charitable lens, e.g. "okay, my partner made a parenting decision I disagree with, but I know their heart was in the right place and that they are coming from a place of love and concern for the kids, so we will be able to work through this and come to an agreement."  They always supported each other when conflicts arose with one of their kids, even if it seemed pretty clear that the other partner had been in the wrong.  They always supported each other when conflicts around with friends/family, even if it seemed pretty clear that their partner had been in the wrong.

So when my mom joined Remnant, it caused a lot of fights between them about which religion was right, how to best parent their kids, etc.  But despite the disagreements, my dad knew my mom had her own freedom of religion, and he knew that ultimately her decision to join Remnant was born out of a desire to do what she felt was best for her own eternal soul and that of her children.  And viewing her through that charitable lens allowed him to make compromises here and there that he otherwise might not have made.  It started out with the compromise to let mom take her kids (we were early teenagers at the time) to Remnant camp and to webcast all the Remnant services instead of going to our regular church.  He didn't like it but he knew she was doing what she thought was best for us.  Next came all the behavioral demands, but surely it's not bad if the kids are taught to be extra respectful and more disciplined, right? Eventually she convinced my dad to join Remnant, but still my mom always remained the crazier of the two of them.

Very slowly over almost ten years, she changed more and more, and her religious beliefs got more and more crazy, and the things that she and my dad considered acceptable changed more and more. I wont go through all the additional small incremental changes that my mother made as she got deeper into Remnant, but she became more and more intensely concerned with saving the immortal souls of her children by any means necessary and with a complete disregard to their health and happiness while alive.  The ends started to justify the means. If I didn't become the perfect, smiling, "yes ma'am"-ing little Remnant borg and get to live forever in heaven with the Remnant while everyone else burned in Hell, then nothing else would ultimately matter. In the end, she started threatening to withdraw me from college and/or make me homeless, these threats were sometimes daily but happened at least once a month.  She told me once via text that she prayed for God to curse me with "whatever it takes" in order to "soften my heart" and turn me towards Remnant (crime, violence, disease, homelessness, etc).  She tried to perform an exorcism on me because I was refuting her Remnant arguments too well and she grew frustrated and therefore apparently it seemed that I must be possessed by a demon who was helping me argue against God's Truth. At other times she hit me with her hands, and when that didn't work a belt, and when that didn't work, a cutting board (She later gave me a sort of non-apology saying that she had misinterpreted what Remnant leaders had said about physical discipline and that she had made mistakes while trying to do what was best in order to parent my immortal soul).

Anyways, all of this is to say that my mother's beliefs and actions after almost a decade in Remnant would have been shocking and unacceptable to my dad when she first joined Remnant, but when I would confront my dad about how crazy my mom had become, he would refuse to contradict her in front of me and he would excuse her behavior because of how she cared about my immortal soul more than her own life. To him, the changes in my mom were a series of very slow changes that had given him time to adjust, and they were all viewed through the charitable lens that she had her own religious freedom, and supposedly she us kids more than her own life, and that all of her actions would always be to do what she felt was best for us. Note that it was never my dad threatening me or hitting me, even after he joined Remnant... but in the end, after so many years of gradual adjustments and compromises and telling himself that my mom's heart was in the right place and doing what she thought was best, he slowly adjusted to the new normal and became complicit.  And he wasn't blameless either, my entire life he had created an unhealthy environment of religious shame/fear/guilt that worsened after he joined Remnant, and he was always very psychologically controlling.  So in the end my dad became entirely complicit and I certainly do not think of him favorably, but I give him a bit of slack and look upon him more slightly favorably than I look upon my mom (but ultimately Remnant turned them both into toxic people and I stopped communicating with them both years ago).  

I apologize for how long-winded this was, but this is my background and today's conversation made me want to share it--sort of a slow decent into the horrors of religious extremism where the nonfundie spouse gradually makes excuses for the fundie.

42 minutes ago, FilleMondaine said:

...And to also call out anyone else reading who privately thinks that strong women cannot be victims, and that honorable men cannot be abuse enablers. Even terrible women can be abused, and we can decry abuse while also disliking a person...

...My dad, a thoroughly honest and honorable man, was bent into enabling my mum. Good Christians don't divorce. Good men keep their promises at the alter. Honorable men defend their wives. The Christian family places the adults above the children, and so parents can raise and punish their children as they wish. That's how an "honorable man" gets trapped into an abusive family dynamic. But he was a grown-up, and should have done better. So he also has blame. Maybe it was the same for the Shamblins. Maybe not...

...I suppose I want to end this like: We can all totally agree that abuse is bad-bad-bad-, and also that this cult is bad-bad-bad, even if we don't know all the details. 

Well said, and thank you for sharing your experiences (which do such a good job of explaining what I was trying to say!) 

Edited August 5, 2020 by throwaway9988

[Concerned1954]

Wow, some of y'all are just irrational haters.  

That's how Gwen thrives.   Her detractors get off message and talk emotions and opinions, but not facts.  

 

 

Wow, some of y'all are just irrational haters.  

That's how Gwen thrives.   Her detractors get off message and talk emotions and opinions, but not facts.  

 

 

[Concerned1954]

Yay I've my point above was proven.  I just got a "fuck you"

[Destiny]

14 minutes ago, Concerned1954 said:

Wow, some of y'all are just irrational haters.  

That's how Gwen thrives.   Her detractors get off message and talk emotions and opinions, but not facts.  

If not letting you shame people in abusive relationships for not being strong makes me a hater, sign me up as a hater. 

We aren't here to take Gwen down or anything of the sort. If that should happen, I'm sure a pretty substantial majority of the population of FJ would cheer, and there might be a party a la Tooloween, but making sure Gwen and Remnant doesn't thrive is literally not the function of FJ. We are here to shine a light on the dangers of fundamentalism in any form it might come in. People are welcome to express any sort of opinion they might have, or any emotions they might have, without asking anyone for opinions or approval. 

 

4 minutes ago, Concerned1954 said:

Yay I've my point above was proven.  I just got a "fuck you"

 

Please look at the finer points of the rules wherein it says that discussion of the reasons you got reactions is not allowed in the threads. 

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Destiny

[nelliebelle1197]

46 minutes ago, Concerned1954 said:

Yay I've my point above was proven.  I just got a "fuck you"

Well, here is another one. Fuck you.

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Concerned1954 said:

Wow, some of y'all are just irrational haters.  

That's how Gwen thrives.   Her detractors get off message and talk emotions and opinions, but not facts.    

 

 

I think you might be a bit close to David to look at this objectively. You seem overly sensitive to any criticism of him. The reality is that he is an adult who stayed and supported a woman while she gave dangerous weight loss advice and started a cult. Even when it was very obvious she was hurting people he didn’t speak out or leave her. He could have done something. That isn’t emotional that is reality. 

[Smalltowngirltn]

I want to address this as a member that was in Remnant during Gwen's divorce, engagement and remarriage.  I attended the glorified circus of her second wedding.

Joe Lara came into the church after an invitation from Rebecca Jackson and within three weeks of beginning to attend Remnant, Joe and his mother, were sitting in seats reserved for "Remnant Royalty" .  A couple of weeks afterwards was when he began serving as Gwen's bodyguard and making the "tour" of Remnant members to visit for  dinner or other reasons to gain the likability factor.

The story told at Gwen's many blessing showers was twofold....one that Micheal had a dream in December that Gwen was free from David and his persecution of her and the church.  It was repeatedly said the Jesus came to Micheal in a dream and revealed Gwen was free.  The second thing was that the mother of Joe's child had many mental issues and was a danger to his child.    This were repeated over and over by the leaders in Gwen's inner circle.

Her engagement was a well keep secret for only the local church members until Gwen deemed it was necessary to tell the out of towners.  The big production done on a Wednesday night was not shown to out of towners for several weeks.  Then the church basically shut down from the engagement in June to the wedding in August.  This was to give Gwen and her team total time to prepare for the wedding (including a new boob job for Gwen).  If you were a member you were expected to be at the wedding and members flew in and drove in from around the world.  Most chairs were removed from the church except for a few for the elderly and certain family to pack more people in. It is well documented that several people passed out form the heat in the church.  (Note here that other than Gwen's children there was no one from her family there)

Members were told that they could give visa gift cards (supposedly for Kingdom work) or monogrammed items for the wedding.  Suggestions of note cards and engraved silver items were given.  

After the wedding the couple and most leadership left for a three week cruise to the Greek Isles.  This was paid for by the church.

Upon the return Remnant's new opinion on divorce was released and we were told that this came after further study and prayer by Gwen.

It became a bad keep secret that Joe and Gwen were seeking a reality show on a network show.  Many church resources went into making videos of Joe and seeking out an agent for him.  After a time they began "Life with Gwen and Joe"

[formergothardite]

I remember reading an old article about Gwen founding RF and David was called a leader shepherd or a leading shepherd. So he was a part of starting this cult even if he hung in the background and eventually stopped attending. When one helps create a monster like RF, they don’t get to claim clean hands if they haven’t even attempted to remedy their bad decision. 
 

@Smalltowngirltn what was the supposed persecution from David? Was he actually feeling guilty and attempting to bring the church down? Or was it him not using Gwen’s weight loss program he had made money selling? She seems to have wanted a husband to go with her diet program so no surprise she dumped him for a guy who matches her brand.
 

We have speculated Joe was trying to use Gwen to get back on television. I wonder if now she is barely letting him speak if he is starting to realize Gwen will never let him do more than stand in her shadow. No reality tv for him. Gwen is just too far out there.

[Concerned1954]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

I think you might be a bit close to David to look at this objectively. You seem overly sensitive to any criticism of him. The reality is that he is an adult who stayed and supported a woman while she gave dangerous weight loss advice and started a cult. Even when it was very obvious she was hurting people he didn’t speak out or leave her. He could have done something. That isn’t emotional that is reality. 

And that response suggests that you are not close to the situation and contrive rather than know the events. 

The reality is that some of if not most of Gwen's weight loss advice works to some degree.  It is not dangerous.  No one has died nor do I know of anyone who suffered illness from it.  FACT.  Therefore I will not spout irrational hatred though I join all of you in condemning RF.  There is nothing wrong with most of the weight loss advice Gwen gives.  "Eat until you're full" hardly originated with Gwen.  She simply packaged known weight loss advice to appeal to those with a religious event.  In the late Nineties during Weigh Down's heyday the program was before and there was not a word about it being dangerous.  Seems to me that when she was on Larry King, the question of its dangerousness would have been addressed.  FACT

David did not know of much of Remnant Fellowship activity.  He wasn't a member and didn't participate.  That Gwen hurts people is not readily obvious.  I agree she does, but I disagree that it is obvious.  In fact Gwen's impact on people who are in my opinion gullible and perhaps desperate for something intangible is partly attributable to that gullibility.  Some people here assume without saying how, they speculate without any facts that David was involved in RF.   Please state who was hurt, how they were hurt, how David or anyone would know about it.    I mean this seriously because you are right about one thing, I do want to see David treated fairly here.  Not on speculation and assumption nor fake stories.  Hell that's the Gwen/RF way.

I know for a FACT that he had nothing to do with RF though Gwen chose to originally portray David as involved.  He chooses and chose not to fight Gwen on the issue because she held his kids hostage to her fantasy world.  Yes, I like David and he may have had his head in the ground over Gwen and RF, but what could he have done.  In some ways he checked out to avoid battle with a narcissistic terrorist who would lie and manipulate to get her way.  Isn't it ironic that David is viewed here as having been both a persecutor of RF and a tacit supporter?  The reality is that David is no less a victim than other people who lost family members to Gwen's bullshit.  

 

Some of the responses on this page are very Gwen-like in that you don't like one of my points because it goes against some strongly held belief that some responders have freaked out on me.  

[FilleMondaine]

4 hours ago, Concerned1954 said:

Yay I've my point above was proven.  I just got a "fuck you"

I started to write a big thing before you responded, then decided against. Too bad, because it was so cool, and the following is both overwritten and not-awesome. Sorry.

Basically, I wanted to thank you for pointing out Gwen's probable personality disorder. There is a big umbrella full of people who need to be doing that, thank you.

And yet, I feel that you were clumsy. To stand up for a friend, David, you must therefore be a decent person. So I believe you mistakenly used patriarchal abuse excuses in order to explain that likely personality disorder. And then you clarified that it was the wrong thing to say, and that you accidentally conflated the "independent women immunity from abuse" trope with the very real "narcissistic personality disorder conflates disapproval with abuse".

Remember, I think that you are a decent person who spoke unthinkingly. 

The problem is that less-decent people turn what you said out of mistake, and they knowingly turn it into an excuse for women to be abused.

Women are upset because awful (or subconsciously biased people) wave away abuse due to the arguments that you initially made. This is why @Destiny, @formergothardite, @HerNameIsBuffy and I got upset. Many, many women are upset that these lies are being told. These lies kill people. I a am a military spouse, and even active duty tough-as-nails female combat personnel get killed due to these lies.

Let's go back to you being a decent person who stood up for a friend. Let's go back to being a medium-woke person who recognises a personality disorder, but is still learning the most appropriate words. You, @Concerned1954 just got a lesson in language. And so being a decent person, I totally expect you to feel some discomfort. What decent person feels good to be called out for misogyny? I think that you believe that you are a feminist, non-racist (anti-racist), not-bigoted person. So you got called out. Unconscious bias is only shameful if you fail to get better. You can get better.

Like @throwaway9988 and I said: it is very possible for a man to be both honorable and complicit. Abuse sucks. It poisons everything. You can like your friend while feeling weird about everything at the same time.

And I promise: This is a forgiving group for those who want to do better. You went out on a limb for your friend, and so I truly believe that you are ready to go out on a limb for rightness. Just read a bit, learn to use the words that match your values. If you value equality and kindness, then find better words. Again, you are a decent person. Uncomfortable, sure. But doable, definitely.

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by FilleMondaine
to separate probable intent of Concerned 1954, with the very righteous calling out of our other FJ Valkyrie! Also, I forgot to add myself in the angry-FJ-er list. Probably others, too. GAH! This is very hard!

[RFsurvivor]

3 minutes ago, Concerned1954 said:

The reality is that some of if not most of Gwen's weight loss advice works to some degree.  It is not dangerous.  No one has died nor do I know of anyone who suffered illness from it.  FACT. 

As a person who was a member for over a decade, I have suffered and still do with the lingering impact of Gwen’s weight loss advice. While I do not have an official diagnosis, I strongly believe I have some form of an eating disorder (probably Anorexia) and struggle to eat in a healthy manner. I have the daily battle of not falling back into anorexic tendencies and patterns. I also struggle with body dysmorphia and being able to look at myself and my body in a healthy way. 
 

On a related note and since weigh down and Remnant are so intertwined, from my experiences in Remnant and the experience of leaving Remnant, I have had to deal with mental trauma that would likely fall under Religious Trauma Syndrome which is similar to PTSD/cPTSD.