Tori and Bobby Smith 6: Now with Kade, Kolter, and Charlotte

[Bluebirdbluebell]

19 minutes ago, ToriAmos said:

I never watched the Bates' show and haven't really followed them up until now—I know the parents left their family size to God's will, but have the kids stated it too? I got the feeling with the Duggars that quiverful was a core part of the family's belief system, and that extended to the kids, but were the Bates like that too?

I must admit, on the surface they seem far less fundamentalist—all the shiny Instagram stuff and high heels and body flaunting isn't something you'd see Joy or Jessa doing. And of course I know they are still hateful, intolerant, uneducated, misogynist, anti-abortion Trumpists, but they seem like quiverful was something their parents were 'called to', and not a prerequisite for their brand of christianity.

Yes, being quiverfull is one of the core values of IBLP and the Bates are hardcore IBLP. Some of them have hinted at wanting fewer kids, but haven't said (or particularly shown) that they are willing to takes steps to try to prevent pregnancy for a while. They have kept going even though most of the girls have had very serious medical issues that would make most couples rethink a decision to leave it up to God. 

[llucie]

6 hours ago, ToriAmos said:

I never watched the Bates' show and haven't really followed them up until now—I know the parents left their family size to God's will, but have the kids stated it too? I got the feeling with the Duggars that quiverful was a core part of the family's belief system, and that extended to the kids, but were the Bates like that too?

I must admit, on the surface they seem far less fundamentalist—all the shiny Instagram stuff and high heels and body flaunting isn't something you'd see Joy or Jessa doing. And of course I know they are still hateful, intolerant, uneducated, misogynist, anti-abortion Trumpists, but they seem like quiverful was something their parents were 'called to', and not a prerequisite for their brand of christianity.

Its dificult to say if they are preventing somehow or not. Carlin and Josie have had bigger spacings between children than their sisters but maybe its just natural spacing and they are not as fertile. Then Alyssa has stated numerous times she doesnt want more kids as of right now. She also didnt become pregnant while she was having heart issues so she must have prevented somehow during that time. Maybe they are ok with not hormonal birth control to space out the kids. It doesnt seem to me that any of them will even reach double digits except for Tori (and maybe Esther, Nathans fiance, she also comes from a really big family and has made comments about how great growing up in a big family is).

[EmiSue]

56 minutes ago, llucie said:

Its dificult to say if they are preventing somehow or not. Carlin and Josie have had bigger spacings between children than their sisters but maybe its just natural spacing and they are not as fertile. Then Alyssa has stated numerous times she doesnt want more kids as of right now. She also didnt become pregnant while she was having heart issues so she must have prevented somehow during that time. Maybe they are ok with not hormonal birth control to space out the kids. It doesnt seem to me that any of them will even reach double digits except for Tori (and maybe Esther, Nathans fiance, she also comes from a really big family and has made comments about how great growing up in a big family is).

Josie had a miscarriage between her two girls. Carlin I'm starting to wonder about, but she's also been breastfeeding and maybe she's the type who takes awhile to get her cycles back even though nursing has slowed way down. Alyssa so far seems to be the one actually doing something to limit the size of her family. 

[Melissa1977]

10 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

They have kept going even though most of the girls have had very serious medical issues that would make most couples rethink a decision to leave it up to God. 

Alyssa got pregnant with Maci after doctors told her she was healed. Josie discovered her health problems during her last pregnancy (as far as we know, she didn't know that the miscarriage would cause blood problems in next pregnancies). If Alyssa had got pregnant when she was ill, or if Josie has more pregnancies in the future, we could say they are mad. 

Erin had a lot of problems before Carson, but the hard delivery was bad luck (not due to her clotting disorder) and the other pregnancies were OK (yes, she was having kids early but none of them was sick). Some freejingers with her same clotting disorder said that pregnancy is no big deal if doctors are involved. I'm sure she would have had continued having children even in dangerous situations, but we will never know.

 

[marmalade]

17 hours ago, EmiSue said:

Josie had a miscarriage between her two girls. Carlin I'm starting to wonder about, but she's also been breastfeeding and maybe she's the type who takes awhile to get her cycles back even though nursing has slowed way down. Alyssa so far seems to be the one actually doing something to limit the size of her family. 

In the Stewarts' latest vlog, Carlin thinks she's pregnant and takes a test. She shows the test to the camera. Not pregnant.

[ToriAmos]

On 7/3/2021 at 2:41 PM, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Yes, being quiverfull is one of the core values of IBLP and the Bates are hardcore IBLP. Some of them have hinted at wanting fewer kids, but haven't said (or particularly shown) that they are willing to takes steps to try to prevent pregnancy for a while. They have kept going even though most of the girls have had very serious medical issues that would make most couples rethink a decision to leave it up to God. 

Huh. Cause the way Alyssa talks, she's definitely not 'leaving it up to God'. Even Carlin has deferred questions about #2 with 'ask me next year' or something, indicating it's up to her and Evan. I guess welcoming children as a blessing is still a bit of spectrum, from actively trying for as many as possible (weaning babies early, tracking fertility etc), to quietly spacing a bit further apart with NFP and ending up with 4-5+

[lumpentheologie]

Gil Bates is on the board of IBLP.  So they are about as quiverfull as you can be.  They are just much better at hiding it than the Duggars. But look how devastated Erin was at having 'only' 4 kids.  

That said I think for many quiverfull fundies taking a pregnancy break for health reasons is acceptable (especially if taking that break will likely increase the number of pregnancies you can have later). I think this is what Alyssa was doing during her heart issues. 

[CarrotCake]

I think a lot of QF families use some form of NFP. It is not fool-proof but you lower the chances of conception and therefore will lower the number of children in total without using actual contraceptives.

 

[MomJeans]

Gil and Kelly are definitely anti-birth control.

I would guess that most of the daughters really believed they would be too, before they were married.*  Though I think it's very doubtful that any are using hormonal birth control*, I'm sure most, other than Tori, could be using natural family planning, though fertility is tricky.  Also, if any of them have irregular cycles, it's harder to target fertile days.

*I had the same heart condition Alyssa had, though mine was caught a bit later in life.  I was on medicine that required me to prevent pregnancy, so I did start taking birth control pills again  - even though I was barren - because there were noted concerns that the medicine could cause birth defects.  Also, if you become pregnant, the surgery would be put-off. which in at least my case, was a serious issue.   Now, of course, Alyssa may have been on other meds.  And not all doctors would possibly require 2 forms of prevention (I was counseled to use BCP and condoms while on this medication, and for 3 months after finishing it). Furthermore, I never asked for a nonhormonal method, because I truly did not want to get pregnant under the circumstances.  But I would assume the Alyssa was told by her medical team to prevent pregnancy, and I could see her and John believing that was acceptable, even under their beliefs.   Maybe it has inspired them to take more control over their family planning. 

Edited July 5, 2021 by MomJeans
typos

[SassyPants]

6 hours ago, MomJeans said:

Gil and Kelly are definitely anti-birth control.

I would guess that most of the daughters really believed they would be too, before they were married.*  Though I think it's very doubtful that any are using hormonal birth control*, I'm sure most, other than Tori, could be using natural family planning, though fertility is tricky.  Also, if any of them have irregular cycles, it's harder to target fertile days.

*I had the same heart condition Alyssa had, though mine was caught a bit later in life.  I was on medicine that required me to prevent pregnancy, so I did start taking birth control pills again  - even though I was barren - because there were noted concerns that the medicine could cause birth defects.  Also, if you become pregnant, the surgery would be put-off. which in at least my case, was a serious issue.   Now, of course, Alyssa may have been on other meds.  And not all doctors would possibly require 2 forms of prevention (I was counseled to use BCP and condoms while on this medication, and for 3 months after finishing it). Furthermore, I never asked for a nonhormonal method, because I truly did not want to get pregnant under the circumstances.  But I would assume the Alyssa was told by her medical team to prevent pregnancy, and I could see her and John believing that was acceptable, even under their beliefs.   Maybe it has inspired them to take more control over their family planning. 

SVT, which Alyssa had, is a stressor on the heart. Pregnancy is also a stressor on the heart d/t added weight, blood volume etc…I am 100% sure that the Websters were told to prevent pregnancies until her condition could be corrected.

For many people with 3, young, healthy children, this condition and treatment (surgeries) would have ended their baby making days-

Edited July 6, 2021 by SassyPants

[Johannah]

I would also imagine that as the babies keep coming and these families are mainly living in small homes with a lot of stressors, plus the novelty of sex starting to wear off, wouldn’t they just be having less sex than usual? Not all of them can be JB level horn dogs (and I guess Gil Bates too). I mean maybe masturbation being taboo increases the amount of sex a little bit, but I would guess most couples aren’t having sex nearly as often or consistently throughout years and years of marriage and babies. That might be just as much a reason for stopping or spacing kids as NFP is. 

[CaptainFunderpants]

5 hours ago, Johannah said:

I would also imagine that as the babies keep coming and these families are mainly living in small homes with a lot of stressors, plus the novelty of sex starting to wear off, wouldn’t they just be having less sex than usual? Not all of them can be JB level horn dogs (and I guess Gil Bates too). I mean maybe masturbation being taboo increases the amount of sex a little bit, but I would guess most couples aren’t having sex nearly as often or consistently throughout years and years of marriage and babies. That might be just as much a reason for stopping or spacing kids as NFP is. 

Eh. Mr. Funderpants and I are still at 3-4 times a week four years in, even while taking care of a parent with late-stage Alzheimer's. I know it's important for him and his mental health, as well as the health of our relationship, and so I've always made it a priority -even on nights when he's 50/50, I usually always encourage it because it admittedly makes me feel better afterward too.

Science suggests that it helps with both mental pain, physical pain, and stress. I deal with chronic illness and there've been days when he's like "No, you're too sick today," and I'm like "That's all the more reason to do it! Natural pain killer." He was getting over food poisoning and literally said "I don't want to do this, but you always swear by it, so let's do this," and afterward he was like "Holy cow. You're not joking. Every part of me feels better."

If you have a good longterm partner, sex is magic for all sorts of issues and ailments of life. If you don't, I assume vibrators also work well ? Joking aside, the mental intimacy and closeness and appreciation of each other's bodies is absolutely invaluable, at least IMHO.

[Johannah]

1 hour ago, CaptainFunderpants said:

Eh. Mr. Funderpants and I are still at 3-4 times a week four years in, even while taking care of a parent with late-stage Alzheimer's. I know it's important for him and his mental health, as well as the health of our relationship, and so I've always made it a priority -even on nights when he's 50/50, I usually always encourage it because it admittedly makes me feel better afterward too.

Science suggests that it helps with both mental pain, physical pain, and stress. I deal with chronic illness and there've been days when he's like "No, you're too sick today," and I'm like "That's all the more reason to do it! Natural pain killer." He was getting over food poisoning and literally said "I don't want to do this, but you always swear by it, so let's do this," and afterward he was like "Holy cow. You're not joking. Every part of me feels better."

If you have a good longterm partner, sex is magic for all sorts of issues and ailments of life. If you don't, I assume vibrators also work well ? Joking aside, the mental intimacy and closeness and appreciation of each other's bodies is absolutely invaluable, at least IMHO.

I completely agree. I just don’t think most long-term couples are having that much sex. Especially with young kids who are frequently needy, cry, end up in your bed at night, and wake up early. And I would imagine for fundies there may be other factors at work, like lingering discomfort around sex, or unaddressed pelvic pain. In the absence of a husband demanding constant joyful availability, I can see how some fundie women might feel relief at less frequent sex and also less frequent conception. 

[Melissa1977]

While I agree that most people have less interest in sex when they get older, all Bates couples are 30 and under, so I doubt sleepless nights and exhausting days are hard enough to keep them "out of fellowshipping". 

 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

On 7/4/2021 at 2:08 AM, ToriAmos said:

Huh. Cause the way Alyssa talks, she's definitely not 'leaving it up to God'. Even Carlin has deferred questions about #2 with 'ask me next year' or something, indicating it's up to her and Evan. I guess welcoming children as a blessing is still a bit of spectrum, from actively trying for as many as possible (weaning babies early, tracking fertility etc), to quietly spacing a bit further apart with NFP and ending up with 4-5+

They can say what they want, but the proof is in their actions. Alyssa has stuff from the beginning about limiting her family size, but then announces another pregnancy. I seem to remember her announcing she got the all clear from her doctor while she was pregnant, but I couldn't find proof of that. CarVAn said they were hoping to be pregnant soon recently, but she took a pregnancy test and got a negative. 

[Melissa1977]

On 7/7/2021 at 10:16 AM, Bluebirdbluebell said:

They can say what they want, but the proof is in their actions. Alyssa has stuff from the beginning about limiting her family size, but then announces another pregnancy. I seem to remember her announcing she got the all clear from her doctor while she was pregnant, but I couldn't find proof of that. CarVAn said they were hoping to be pregnant soon recently, but she took a pregnancy test and got a negative. 

She got healed, thrn she went to a romantic getaway and boom, pregnancy. John and Alyssa are highly fertile. Either they prevented or they abstained, no way they can be 2 years without pregnancies if they would leave it "up to God". 

On the other side, Carlin said they waited until Layla's health was fine.

Why is it so difficult to believe some fundies use birth control? Out of 19 children, some of them are going to make minor or major changes and still share many fundie beliefs.

[browngrl]

3 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Why is it so difficult to believe some fundies use birth control

...because their religion says that fertility should be up to god and the the lord will handle any health issues that will arise. Fundamentalism is by its very nature extreme so when people act in a moderate way it is a surprise - at least to me.

[SassyPants]

3 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

She got healed, thrn she went to a romantic getaway and boom, pregnancy. John and Alyssa are highly fertile. Either they prevented or they abstained, no way they can be 2 years without pregnancies if they would leave it "up to God". 

On the other side, Carlin said they waited until Layla's health was fine.

Why is it so difficult to believe some fundies use birth control? Out of 19 children, some of them are going to make minor or major changes and still share many fundie beliefs.

I think it’s hard for many to believe a Duggar or Bates would use BC because for decades they have been making money solely on the fact that they are prolific procreators. Their entire lifestyles have been funded off having another baby. Using BC would detail the easy money and fame train.

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

She got healed, thrn she went to a romantic getaway and boom, pregnancy. John and Alyssa are highly fertile. Either they prevented or they abstained, no way they can be 2 years without pregnancies if they would leave it "up to God". 

On the other side, Carlin said they waited until Layla's health was fine.

Why is it so difficult to believe some fundies use birth control? Out of 19 children, some of them are going to make minor or major changes and still share many fundie beliefs.

I’m with you. I think there are many ways to try and prevent a pregnancy. These women know their cycles and fertility windows. I know exactly when I’m ovulating. It’s very easy for me to know. They can feign a headache when they are fertile, offer a BJ instead, or pull out. None of that is using hormonal birth control or even condoms. I’m guessing Alyssa and John used one or all of those methods or even condoms when she had heart issues. I know fundies hate on hormonal birth control but there are other ways to keep from having a baby every 15 months. 

[CanadianMamam]

2 hours ago, browngrl said:

...because their religion says that fertility should be up to god and the the lord will handle any health issues that will arise. Fundamentalism is by its very nature extreme so when people act in a moderate way it is a surprise - at least to me.

But look at the Clarks, who seem even more controlling than the Bates and are just as fundie, but only have 3 kids. 

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I’m with you. I think there are many ways to try and prevent a pregnancy. These women know their cycles and fertility windows. I know exactly when I’m ovulating. It’s very easy for me to know. They can feign a headache when they are fertile, offer a BJ instead, or pull out. None of that is using hormonal birth control or even condoms. I’m guessing Alyssa and John used one or all of those methods or even condoms when she had heart issues. I know fundies hate on hormonal birth control but there are other ways to keep from having a baby every 15 months. 

Yep. I am super fertile. I got pregnant first try each time. But also managed to not get pregnant when I didn't want to because I know my body and cycle. I can'5 take hormonal birth control, so I used NFP until we were ? done. 

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I think it’s hard for many to believe a Duggar or Bates would use BC because for decades they have been making money solely on the fact that they are prolific procreators. Their entire lifestyles have been funded off having another baby. Using BC would detail the easy money and fame train.

Maybe, but the kids experienced the downsides of having so many kids. They know what it is lik to go without, to have a house that is constantly crowded and messy, etc. And they have experienced comfort and they already have the fame and the Bates girls seem to be going the influencer route and don't need a dozen children for that. 

[browngrl]

26 minutes ago, CanadianMamam said:

But look at the Clarks, who seem even more controlling than the Bates and are just as fundie, but only have 3 kids.

I think some fundies have fertility issues but I think more fundies have hypocrisy issues.

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, browngrl said:

I think some fundies have fertility issues but I think more fundies have hypocrisy issues.

The Clarks have three kids each two years apart and then no more. That definitely seems intentional family planning. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by JermajestyDuggar

[Bluebirdbluebell]

6 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

She got healed, thrn she went to a romantic getaway and boom, pregnancy. John and Alyssa are highly fertile. Either they prevented or they abstained, no way they can be 2 years without pregnancies if they would leave it "up to God". 

On the other side, Carlin said they waited until Layla's health was fine.

Why is it so difficult to believe some fundies use birth control? Out of 19 children, some of them are going to make minor or major changes and still share many fundie beliefs.

It seemed by the way they announced that she assumed the surgery healed her and then got the all clear from the doctors. Yes they seem to have a waited a year in case when she needed surgery, but that seems like an extreme situation.

In Carlin's case, she's been taking pregnancy tests on youtube for a long time now. She was really hoping to be pregnant. If she was pregnant, her spacing would be close to Anna Duggar's and everyone admits she's fully on the quiverfull baby train. It's possible COVID has made them less fertile.

I have definitely known fundies in real life who have had no problem limiting their family size. I also know that being told birth control is a sin can really cause issues for people raised in groups that teach this. The Bates girls haven't shown signs that they are definitely moving away from this lifestyle unlike Jill Dillard.

[CanadianMamam]

14 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

It seemed by the way they announced that she assumed the surgery healed her and then got the all clear from the doctors. Yes they seem to have a waited a year in case when she needed surgery, but that seems like an extreme situation.

In Carlin's case, she's been taking pregnancy tests on youtube for a long time now. She was really hoping to be pregnant. If she was pregnant, her spacing would be close to Anna Duggar's and everyone admits she's fully on the quiverfull baby train. It's possible COVID has made them less fertile.

I have definitely known fundies in real life who have had no problem limiting their family size. I also know that being told birth control is a sin can really cause issues for people raised in groups that teach this. The Bates girls haven't shown signs that they are definitely moving away from this lifestyle unlike Jill Dillard.

I thought the pregnancy test this week was the first for Carlin? Except the one last year that was a (very bad taste) joke? Is it something she does often on her Blog? I don'5 want her YouTube, just her stuff on Instagram. And until recently when asked about a second, she has deferred the subject. 

I also find baby spacing for the first few children hard to judge. My first two were 20 months apart on purpose. I had 3 under 5. I wanted my kids close and to be done the bay years. My MIL had 3 under 3 because she was.older (for the 70s) and worried she had missed her fertile years and wanted several kids and then she had an oops in her 40s. 

I am sure all the Bates girls will have at least 4 kids. I am sure at least one will have a dozen or close to it. But I can't see all 8 girls having 10+ kids (taking Michael and Erin out of the equation). 

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I think it’s hard for many to believe a Duggar or Bates would use BC because for decades they have been making money solely on the fact that they are prolific procreators. Their entire lifestyles have been funded off having another baby. Using BC would detail the easy money and fame train.

But the second Gen has figured out a way to make money outside of having babies. The girls have the Bates sisters boutique, they are “influencers” who get paid to advertise products, and some have husbands with jobs outside of baby making. So they don’t have to rely on having a baby every year in order to make money.