Ark Encounter Documentary

[crawfishgirl]

PBS recently aired a documentary about the opening of the Ark Encounter called "We Believe in Dinosaurs".  It was interesting because they included interviews with various people, including protesters, a fundamentalist who had changed his belief system over time, and residents in the area who hoped that the Ark would revitalize their region by bringing in tourism money (it didn't).  The dinosaur exhibits and discussion were entertaining, and they also showed some of the Answers in Genesis books about them.  My husband just shook his head and left the room after a while. 

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/we-believe-in-dinosaurs/

You can watch the entire documentary on the site.

 

[Xan]

This was really interesting to watch.  I wasn't aware that the Ark Encounter was only phase one of Ken Ham's crazy plan.  He's going to build an entire creationism park.  It's hard to believe that there's that much money and support for this level of stupidity.

[Giraffe]

10 minutes ago, Xan said:

It's hard to believe that there's that much money and support for this level of stupidity.

When I was still a fervent young earther I was convinced it was essential to support “ministries” such as these in order to fight the devil’s takeover of science and evolution. Some people spend their last dollars on important things like food & housing.  Not me! Even when I was desperately struggling financially I would send money to AiG. 
 

Grifters gonna grift and Ken Ham has no problem manipulating people’s fears in his favor. 
 

Funny this has come up now. I’ve recently gotten into Aron Ra’s YouTube videos where he disproves the flood. 

[Four is Enough]

18 minutes ago, Xan said:

.  It's hard to believe    frightening that there's that much money and support for this level of stupidity.

FTFY

Edited February 29, 2020 by Four is Enough

[marmalade]

It's definitely worth watching. The crazy comes off Ham in waves. And there's the looney professor (geology, IIRC...been a while since I saw this) preaching creationism. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by marmalade

[AmazonGrace]

YEC is the reason I'm not a believer any longer. Well, one of them. But it was huge to me to realize that it was based on lies , distortions,  ignored evidence and claims that had been refuted over and over again and again and again. And I figured that if one part of the religion is so rabidly defended with lies, what are the odds that any of the rest of it stands as the absolute truth? not good.

[Xan]

This is not in any way an attack on religion or on Christianity in particular --

What bothers me is that creationists will go through the entire "7 days of creation" and never question it.

Day 1: Light

Day 2: Atmosphere / Firmament

Day 3: Dry ground & plants

Day 4: Sun, moon & stars

Day 5: Birds & sea animals

Day 6: Land animals & humans

Day 7: The Sabbath of rest   

How can you have light on the first day when you don't have the sun until the fourth day? And you can't have plants before you have the sun.  And you don't really have the "day" as a unit of measurement until you have the sun.  If the Lord on HIgh had asked me to write Genesis, I'd have stuck the sun up there on day one.

I grew up in a family that went to church all the time.  I've read all about Noah and, even when I was young, it bothered me that a deity would believe everyone in the world was sinful except for one family.  How can people just accept that?  If the entire planet had flooded, think of all the innocents that would have been killed.  It just didn't make sense to me that a compassionate deity would do that.  Yet, Ken Ham says that's exactly what happened.

I think it's fine to believe in the Bible but I'm not sure why the creationists believe in it so literally.  

[Palimpsest]

Well, I believe in dinosaurs.  I believe they became extinct about 65 million years ago.  

And I don't believe there was a global flood within the last 10,000 years and a chap called Noah kept dinosaurs on his boat.

41 minutes ago, marmalade said:

And there's the looney professor (geology, IIRC...been a while since I saw this) preaching creationism. 

Georgia Purdom, PhD.  Possibly Ohio State's biggest academic embarrassment.  She says she "buried" her creationist beliefs to get her PhD.

I like this guy's take on her:

Quote

A Person Who Has Never Been Responsible for a Scientific Publication is Called a “Renowned Genetics Expert”

Georgia Purdom got her Ph.D. degree from the Ohio State University in 2000. The topic of her dissertation was “The role of the microphthalmia transcription factor (MITF) in the regulation of gene expression during osteoclast differentiation.” She has coauthored three papers based on her thesis, none as a first or corresponding author. Her scientific output until 2000 or after 2002 is zilch. As the only female scientist at Answers in Genesis, she has recently released a documentary about Adam and Eve. According to Christian Today, an evangelical publication: “Renowned genetics expert proves existence of Adam and Eve through DNA research.”

Nice to know that according to Christian Today, a person who has never been responsible for even a single scientific publication in her life is a “renowned genetics expert.” According to these “Christian” criteria, I can call myself a renowned expert in gynecology, renaissance wood carving, the microbiology of skin diseases, Mandarin semiotics, and the history of Padua.

Georgia Purdom claims to have based her documentary on the “work” of one Nathaniel Jeanson, whose recent thesis is entitled “Metabolic regulation of hematopoietic stem cells.” Unfortunately, there is nothing in the scientific publication record of Jeanson to even hint that he has ever worked on human genes or genomes. Neither Purdom nor Jeanson have ever studied human genetics or genomics, nor are they familiar with the nitty-gritty of computational biology. Yet, they claim that all females trace their ancestry to an individual that had lived as recently as “several thousand years ago.”

How nice to be able to “prove the existence of Adam and Eve through DNA research” without ever dealing with DNA. 

And, don’t even start me on the obscene claim that hypotheses can be proven correct in science. 

https://judgestarling.tumblr.com/post/125701502856/a-person-who-has-never-been-responsible-for-a

[AmazonGrace]

18 minutes ago, Xan said:

This is not in any way an attack on religion or on Christianity in particular --

What bothers me is that creationists will go through the entire "7 days of creation" and never question it.

Day 1: Light

Day 2: Atmosphere / Firmament

Day 3: Dry ground & plants

Day 4: Sun, moon & stars

Day 5: Birds & sea animals

Day 6: Land animals & humans

Day 7: The Sabbath of rest   

How can you have light on the first day when you don't have the sun until the fourth day? And you can't have plants before you have the sun.  And you don't really have the "day" as a unit of measurement until you have the sun.  If the Lord on HIgh had asked me to write Genesis, I'd have stuck the sun up there on day one.

I grew up in a family that went to church all the time.  I've read all about Noah and, even when I was young, it bothered me that a deity would believe everyone in the world was sinful except for one family.  How can people just accept that?  If the entire planet had flooded, think of all the innocents that would have been killed.  It just didn't make sense to me that a compassionate deity would do that.  Yet, Ken Ham says that's exactly what happened.

I think it's fine to believe in the Bible but I'm not sure why the creationists believe in it so literally.  

And in Genesis 2 it all seems to happen in a slightly different order...

[Lgirlrocks]

27 minutes ago, Xan said:

This is not in any way an attack on religion or on Christianity in particular --

What bothers me is that creationists will go through the entire "7 days of creation" and never question it.

Day 1: Light

Day 2: Atmosphere / Firmament

Day 3: Dry ground & plants

Day 4: Sun, moon & stars

Day 5: Birds & sea animals

Day 6: Land animals & humans

Day 7: The Sabbath of rest   

How can you have light on the first day when you don't have the sun until the fourth day? And you can't have plants before you have the sun.  And you don't really have the "day" as a unit of measurement until you have the sun.  If the Lord on HIgh had asked me to write Genesis, I'd have stuck the sun up there on day one.

I grew up in a family that went to church all the time.  I've read all about Noah and, even when I was young, it bothered me that a deity would believe everyone in the world was sinful except for one family.  How can people just accept that?  If the entire planet had flooded, think of all the innocents that would have been killed.  It just didn't make sense to me that a compassionate deity would do that.  Yet, Ken Ham says that's exactly what happened.

I think it's fine to believe in the Bible but I'm not sure why the creationists believe in it so literally.  

I think a day equals a thousand years. The Bible says a day on earth is a thousand years in heaven 2 Peter 3:8.

[Xan]

Just now, Lgirlrocks said:

I think a day equals a thousand years. The Bible says a day on earth is a thousand years in heaven 2 Peter 3:8.

Yes -- The concept of "day" could mean any time period.  It does, however, throw a monkey wrench into the whole "the earth is 6,000 years old" if the very act of creation took 7,000 years.

[AmazonGrace]

6 minutes ago, Lgirlrocks said:

I think a day equals a thousand years. The Bible says a day on earth is a thousand years in heaven 2 Peter 3:8.

but on that count it would still be seven of our earth days, however long it seems in heaven...

[Giraffe]

1 hour ago, AmazonGrace said:

YEC is the reason I'm not a believer any longer. Well, one of them. But it was huge to me to realize that it was based on lies , distortions,  ignored evidence and claims that had been refuted over and over again and again and again. And I figured that if one part of the religion is so rabidly defended with lies, what are the odds that any of the rest of it stands as the absolute truth? not good.

AiG’s lousy answers for tough questions was the beginning for me. It took many years for me to completely deconvert, but their answers were lacking to me even as a staunch young earther. I had so many questions. I was so disappointed when I read a Ken Ham “Answers” book! I don’t recall any specific questions but there were many that I felt even in my naïveté could’ve done a better job answering! Little did I know many years later it would be those who’d deconverted who could give me satisfactory answers. 

[Xan]

I think the Bible has a lot of historical information about earlier times.  I think it's full of allegories and tales with messages.  I think it should be read figuratively rather than literally.  (My own personal preference is the New Testament because I always liked the parables.)

My problem is that it was written by mortal men.  Even if they say they were inspired by God, we can't be sure exactly what message was sent.  And it's been translated from original sources to Greek to English.  I read Genesis in the ancient Greek and it does vary from the English translation.  Also, the translations were affected by societal norms for those times.  Entire passages were sometimes re-written or omitted entirely.  The King James version omitted entire books of the Bible that were in earlier versions.

So - even though I think the Bible is an important book, I just don't think it's the complete and inerrant "word of God" that our fundamentalists believe.

(ETA:  I'm an agnostic but I don't want to offend any fellow FreeJingerites.)

Edited February 29, 2020 by Xan

[AmazonGrace]

Anybody can say they were inspired by God and there is no way to verify that.

[zeebaneighba]

5 hours ago, crawfishgirl said:

PBS recently aired a documentary about the opening of the Ark Encounter called "We Believe in Dinosaurs".  It was interesting because they included interviews with various people, including protesters, a fundamentalist who had changed his belief system over time, and residents in the area who hoped that the Ark would revitalize their region by bringing in tourism money (it didn't).  The dinosaur exhibits and discussion were entertaining, and they also showed some of the Answers in Genesis books about them.  My husband just shook his head and left the room after a while. 

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/we-believe-in-dinosaurs/

You can watch the entire documentary on the site.

 

I saw that!  The degree self-delusion was fascinating. I was surprised to find out that Ken Ham is Australian.  How did I not know that?  

[Caroline]

That documentary was very good.  I made my husband watch it with me because sometimes it's hard for him to understand my Fundie obsession.    I'm glad PBS is making people aware of such a loony group.  

What do they think of Ken Hamm in Australia?  I wonder if they're happy he's here and not there.

[Giraffe]

1 hour ago, Caroline said:

That documentary was very good...I'm glad PBS is making people aware of such a loony group.

Me too. I watched most of it thinking it was taking them seriously. Nope, the anti-science comes through loud and clear. 

[Hane]

@crawfishgirl, I just watched the entire thing and wish I hadn’t. The self-righteous anti-science attitude and mental gymnastics started giving me an anxiety attack. Ham and company genuinely believe that people like the Baptist minister in the documentary (the one who believes that Genesis is allegorical instead of factual) are going to burn in hell and that there’s only one right kind of Christian. 
As I’ve said here before, I grew up Christian (ebil Catholic) in the ‘60s and evolution wasn’t remotely controversial back then—at least here in the Northeast.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Hane

[formergothardite]

16 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

Anybody can say they were inspired by God and there is no way to verify that.

Yep. One thing I realized on my why out of the inspired word of God mindset was that in the NT some of those folks were just writing letters and giving out advice. They never claimed they were writing a divinely inspired message for people 2000 years in the future. It doesn't make any sense to take these words as a literal way to live our lives today because that wasn't the intentions of the original writers. 

[Palimpsest]

7 hours ago, Hane said:

The self-righteous anti-science attitude and mental gymnastics started giving me an anxiety attack.

It is quite distressing to see people turning somersaults and trying to sprain their brains with this stuff.  If the Bible is inerrant and literal truth, then they have to throw out all scientific research (and rational thought) and then try to make up their own "science" to 'prove" the Bible is factual.  

And I have had the world's worst ear worm since yesterday.  I have to share the pain.  Sorry.

"You Scaly Thing" (with apologies to Hot Chocolate)

I believe in dinosaurs
Where you from, you scaly things?
Scaly things, you
I believe in dinosaurs
Since you've been so gone, you scaly things.

Where did you go to, baby?
How did you know Ham needed you?
How did you know he needed you so badly?
How did you to the Ark Encounter so gladly?
Yesterday you were an extinct species
Now you're living on the ark, making love to Kennie

I believe in dinosaurs
Where you from, you scaly things?
Scaly things, you
I believe in dinosaurs
Since you've been so gone, you scaly things.

Where did you come from, angels?
How did you know he'd be the one?
Did you know you're everything he prayed for?
Did you know, every night and day for?
Every day, needing lies to make traction
Now you're living on the ark, giving it to Kennie!

 

[zeebaneighba]

6 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

It is quite distressing to see people turning somersaults and trying to sprain their brains with this stuff.  If the Bible is inerrant and literal truth, then they have to throw out all scientific research (and rational thought) and then try to make up their own "science" to 'prove" the Bible is factual.  

And I have had the world's worst ear worm since yesterday.  I have to share the pain.  Sorry.

"You Scaly Thing" (with apologies to Hot Chocolate)

I believe in dinosaurs
Where you from, you scaly things?
Scaly things, you
I believe in dinosaurs
Since you've been so gone, you scaly things.

Where did you go to, baby?
How did you know Ham needed you?
How did you know he needed you so badly?
How did you to the Ark Encounter so gladly?
Yesterday you were an extinct species
Now you're living on the ark, making love to Kennie

I believe in dinosaurs
Where you from, you scaly things?
Scaly things, you
I believe in dinosaurs
Since you've been so gone, you scaly things.

Where did you come from, angels?
How did you know he'd be the one?
Did you know you're everything he prayed for?
Did you know, every night and day for?
Every day, needing lies to make traction
Now you're living on the ark, giving it to Kennie!

 

Totally off topic, but when I was in Jr HS, one of my friends was convinced the line "I believe in miracles" was "I believe in milk cows!"  It totally made sense to her because the name of the band was Hot Chocolate and you make hot cocoa with milk.  To this day, that is the only thing I can think of when I hear that song!

[CyborgKin]

On 3/1/2020 at 6:55 AM, Lgirlrocks said:

I think a day equals a thousand years. The Bible says a day on earth is a thousand years in heaven 2 Peter 3:8.

I can believe there was light from a source other than the sun for a day or two, but not for a couple thousand years.  Anyhow, that passage then says "and a thousand years is as one day" so it's clearly not giving some kind of scaling factor.

Here's the passage for context:

Quote

2 Peter 3 New King James Version (NKJV)

3 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Or in other words: "Why hasn't God done anything about evil lately?" "He's giving evil time to change."

As for their "renowned genetics expert" why couldn't they have gone with someone like John C. Sanford who at least did some science before retiring and writing his book about "Genetic Entropy"?

 

And as for Australia, even with Ken Ham gone and Carl Wieland retired from active 'ministry' (David Catchpoole too, I think he's raising mangoes or something), there's still Don Batten, Tas Walker, John Hartnett, Ron and Julie Neller... and more but that's just off the top of my head.  Plus there's the Walshes with the Ark Van.

Oh there was Jonathan Sarfati but he moved to the US some years back and he's originally from NZ anyhow.

Yeah I know way too much about Australian creationists.

[WineGlass]

On 3/1/2020 at 7:24 AM, Xan said:

I think the Bible has a lot of historical information about earlier times. 

No, really it doesn’t. Biblical scholars, even quite conservative ones, now admit that pretty much all of the OT characters are mythological, including Abraham, Moses, David. And events written as historical are completely unsupported and often contradicted by the available evidence, eg “the conquest of Canaan” and the “exodus”. Added to that the total immorality of the ancient Bronze Age laws, I don’t know why anyone reads it anymore let alone imagines it to be inspired by a supposedly good deity. 
And the New Testament is hardly any better. Based on a mythological Jesus with a totally made up “history”, at least half the books forgeries, and so much inconsistency and contradiction, the bible is really only useful for a door stop. We should be beyond this nonsense now. So sad that it’s 2020 and people are keeping Ken Ham in business. 
Yes I for one am glad he’s shilling his crap outside of my country. Most of us don’t stand for that.