Hipster Churches; Still Fundie

[SilverBeach]

I've known folks to donate baked goods, and sometimes there's a charge for the coffee. Costco coffee service can be pretty cheap though. I don't mind refreshments if they are minimal, no gourmet coffee bar with favored syrups, or expensive bakery goods. And helping the needy should definitely be first priority. I wonder how much these hipster churches do to to help the less fortunate.

[fundiefan]

At least two of our local mega churches are going this direction. One, with two "campuses" - west & east - is down the street from work. I pass by it a lot. Both have always been less stiff than traditional church, but they are also both marketing themselves to young adults almost exclusively these days. Young adult "events" - picnics, concerts (Christian bands, of course), coffee house tours (because wine tours are so heathen), sports teams, book club, movie night - there's a plethora of ways to suck in young adults. 

The old bait & switch, because both are evangelical churches in bright wrapping paper. "Look, we have so much fun and love everyone" - but, don't look too close because "gays are an abomination and abortion is sin and women are less than men..." blah, blah, blah. 

I used to have a friend who attends one of them. We are not young adults, but she's been going for years before they began their latest marketing blitz. She is fundie through & through. Sure, she has a job, and wears jeans, and even drinks (even before going to work, which is one of the reasons we are no longer friends). But, she stays with her abusive, asshole husband because god says divorce is wrong. She praises said asshole husband on Facebook almost daily about what a godly, loving, wonderful husband he is. When he got a bit too touchy-feeley with me & and another friend of ours, she said we should be flattered and he didn't really "mean" anything by it and he's just a trouchy-feeley kind of guy - even though she often complained that he rarely touched her unless he wanted sex. (The other main reason we are no longer friends). Anyway, this former friend recently sent me a promotional packet about how great life is at the church and how it has something for everyone and no one is ever turned away and COME JOIN THE FUN!

I almost barfed. 

If you want to get married there, all the evidence that they are not "hip" and are, in fact, all fundie, is in their marriage contract. 9 weeks of "classes", marriage mentoring, NO DANCING AT THE RECEPTION, no alcohol, dress restrictions for bride/bridesmaids, only male/female marriage, no second marriages unless a party is a widow/widower...you know, all that standard fundie BS. 

The other church promotes itself, in part, by saying "We’re all about being authentic and real with each other in order to sincerely pursue God." If that isn't hipster, I don't know what is. Also, their foyer has a coffee shop. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by fundiefan

[Giraffe]

3 minutes ago, clueliss said:

And sometimes the language on church websites is cloaked/coded.  For instance the speaking in tongues thing is sometimes hidden in the phrase "Baptism of the Spirit"  

And yet they act surprised when people call them out on this kind of crap, or act ignorant. It’s intentional deception! 

[SilverBeach]

In the traditional black baptist church I was raised in, it was common to have full Sunday dinners after services. Those services were active and folks needed to refuel! Also, church was an all-day thing and parishoners didn't always have time to go home and cook an elaborate meal. However, there was definitely a charge for those meals, although the church ladies donated their cooking services. They could throw down! They also cooked for the repasts following funeral services, with no charge to the bereaved family, but making a donation to the church was common. This was all a part of the community aspect of the church. Good memories.

49 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

And yet they act surprised when people call them out on this kind of crap, or act ignorant. It’s intentional deception! 

I really think so, they are hoping you get sucked in by love bombing so that when you know the truth, you will stay anyway. 

@Howl, thanks for creating this topic, I'm enjoying the discussion and have though about this a lot. It's almost like the more hipster a church is, the less it is likely to be open and afffirming, or liberal. Some "high" traditional, liturgical churches are more accepting of everyone! 

Edited January 28, 2020 by SilverBeach

[kmachete14]

There's a huge church called Calvary church in my hometown. My cousins stopped attended the local Catholic church due to the priest scandal, differing beliefs on sexuality, general feeling that the Catholic church was sexist, homophobic, stuffy, and boring. 

Their solution? To attend Calvary church, which is an Assemblies of God church that believes in Biblical inerrancy, doesn't believe in evolution, takes a severe complementarian standpoint, and believes in talking in tongues, among other things.  However, they have rock music, you don't have dress up, and everyone "loves on" each other. 

I don't understand it at all. You moved out of the frying pan and into the fire, except the fire was wearing ripped jeans and sang cooler music. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by kmachete14

[nokidsmom]

14 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

WillowCreek* (Started by Bill Hybels, retired from there and accused of years of sexual abuse of numerous women) was among the first “seeker sensitive” churches - it was one big manipulative marketing campaign to get people in the doors. It’s the same kind of thing

I worked with one of the ministers from Willow Creek in the mid-90s.   First time I had heard of the church and to hear him describe it, it seemed all so superficial to me.   

And make no mistake about the beliefs, one of the reasons why I left that job was because I realized with him as my boss, I could not expect to be promoted or get a raise, because I was a woman and ought to be having  babies and staying home.  

There's a church down the street from me that just renamed itself for the third time in as many years.  It went from "Faith" to "Torch" to now "Fierce".  Interesting change of names.

 

[Cleopatra7]

1 minute ago, kmachete14 said:

There's a huge church called Calvary church in my hometown. My cousins stopped attended the local Catholic church due to the priest scandal, differing beliefs on sexuality, general feeling that the Catholic church was sexist, homophobic, stuffy, and boring. 

Their solution? To attend Calvary church, which is an Assemblies of God church that believes in Biblical inerrancy, doesn't believe in evolution, takes a severe contrarianism standpoint, and believes in talking in tongues, among other things.  However, they have rock music, you don't have dress up, and everyone "loves on" each other. 

I don't understand it at all. You moved out of the frying pan and into the fire, except the fire was wearing ripped jeans and sang cooler music. 

The only answer I can think of is that Pentecostalism is at the opposite end of the spectrum from Catholicism in terms of practices (although there are Catholic Charismatics), so it may have seemed like a big difference in many ways. However, if the fundamental problem was official views on gender, sexuality, etc. going Pentecostal isn’t going to be any better, especially since the nature of these mega church Pentecostal groups, with their membership contracts and neo shepherding, makes it much easier to enforce ideological uniformity than in Catholicism. 
 

I think the underlying issue is that these sorts of churches are assuming (rightly) that no one is paying attention to the statement of beliefs, their denominational affiliation, or the draconian rules in the membership contracts. That potential members will be too dazzled by the music, the love bombing, and the activities to pay attention to what they’re signing off on. Even if you don’t believe in what they say on gender, sexuality, Biblical inerrancy, etc at first, if you spend enough time there and make the church your primary social activity, your beliefs will begin to change, if only because you want to fit in and you’re in an environment that reinforces these beliefs.

[nausicaa]

15 hours ago, Denim Jumper said:

The people were generally nice, but vapid; that shallow “we’re the cool kids” vibe. 

Whenever I see one of these hipster megachurches with their wine mom fonts, infinity scarves, and industrial minimalist coffee bars, I think "Oh God, this is everyone and everything I hated about high school..."

I don't understand the need some adults have of belonging to something down to a minute level. I like to socialize (in moderation) but I just have never had this overwhelming sense of needing to belong. I'm not going to cook with a hotpot just because everyone else is doing it, or wear shoes I don't really like because they're the trend. I watch female former classmates maniacally talk about these churches and their MLMs and "mom squads" on FB and realize I'm missing some type of internal programming. 

Also, let's be real--the theology is incredibly shallow. So not only would I have to hang out with the boring followers from high school, I gotta hang out with the dumb ones. Thanks but no thanks. Give me a head covering Catholic to argue about Chesterton with any day.

Edited January 28, 2020 by nausicaa

[SilverBeach]

36 minutes ago, kmachete14 said:

There's a huge church called Calvary church in my hometown. My cousins stopped attended the local Catholic church due to the priest scandal, differing beliefs on sexuality, general feeling that the Catholic church was sexist, homophobic, stuffy, and boring. 

Their solution? To attend Calvary church, which is an Assemblies of God church that believes in Biblical inerrancy, doesn't believe in evolution, takes a severe contrarianism standpoint, and believes in talking in tongues, among other things.  However, they have rock music, you don't have dress up, and everyone "loves on" each other. 

I don't understand it at all. You moved out of the frying pan and into the fire, except the fire was wearing ripped jeans and sang cooler music. 

When my daughter shared with me what she learned during her RCIA process, my respect for Catholicism grew. It has faults, but is not typically anti-intellectual and does not follow sola scriptura, which I don't believe in. It considers much of the bible to be allegorical, as do I.  And the social gospel is not optional in living out the faith.  No religion is perfect, I have problems with all of them except UU. 

[quiversR4hunting]

1 hour ago, clueliss said:

One of my current peeves is churches that hand out coffee and donuts/bagels.  Why are we (as a church) providing free coffee and donuts?  Is that much offering coming in that you can do that, pay salaries etc and if so why aren't we legitimately helping people in need?  (I can bring my own coffee in a cup and buy my own breakfast)

My church has coffee and donuts afterwards for a donation but it is meant to have the congregation to hang out and converse with each other. It is also completely optional and only at the morning masses. 

51 minutes ago, kmachete14 said:

There's a huge church called Calvary church in my hometown. My cousins stopped attended the local Catholic church due to the priest scandal, differing beliefs on sexuality, general feeling that the Catholic church was sexist, homophobic, stuffy, and boring. 

Their solution? To attend Calvary church, which is an Assemblies of God church that believes in Biblical inerrancy, doesn't believe in evolution, takes a severe complementarian standpoint, and believes in talking in tongues, among other things.  However, they have rock music, you don't have dress up, and everyone "loves on" each other. 

I don't understand it at all. You moved out of the frying pan and into the fire, except the fire was wearing ripped jeans and sang cooler music. 

I'm Catholic and I can attest that most Catholics are ignorant to the doctrines of other Christian religions and ignorant on how to read statements of faith. I know I was and have gotten better since reading FJ but there are still some statements of faith I don't understand. 

One time I wrote into Al Kresta because he was saying how awesome the Duggars were (pre-Josh scandal) I explained in my email that they hate Catholics a do not see us as Christians. I got an answer back and he kind of blew me off. Then Joshgate happened...I really wonder what Al thinks of the family now  

6 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

When my daughter shared with me what she learned during her RCIA process, my respect for Catholicism grew. It has faults, but is not typically anti-intellectual and does not follow sola scriptura, which I don't believe in. It considers much of the bible to be allegorical, as do I.  And the social gospel is not optional in living out the faith.  No religion is perfect, I have problems with all of them except UU. 

If any one is interested in reading a mega church pastor turned Catholic description of the difference I highly suggest "Confessions of A Mega Church Pastor:" by Allen Hunt -  https://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Mega-Church-Pastor-Discovered-ebook/dp/B0087HLDGS 

He breaks down the traditions and theology. He was a Methodist pastor. He has a Masters of divinity from Emory and a PhD in New Testament and Ancient Christian Origins from Yale (1994). He converted to Catholicism in 2008. This was the mega church where he was the senior pastor - https://www.mountpisgah.org/ 

[SilverBeach]

18 minutes ago, quiversR4hunting said:

I explained in my email that they hate Catholics a do not see us as Christians.

This is some nonsense I will never understand. It's like hating Jewish people when Jesus was a practicing Jew! Catholics were the first "Christians". These ignorant folks have never been to a Mass, with all the bible reading and praying and Jesus worship. I hate ignorance.

Confession time (no pun intended): I flirted with becoming Catholic. But RCIA ain't no joke, it was a nine month committment. My daughter loves it, but she is more conservative than I am (role reversal)! She is young but cannot stand hipster churches, she tried them and her spiritual needs just were not met. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by SilverBeach

[formergothardite]

22 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

I watch female former classmates maniacally talk about these churches and their MLMs and "mom squads" on FB and realize I'm missing some type of internal programming. 

They all seem to dress the same and make the same generic "spiritual" social media posts. There seems to me to be two types of people into these sorts of churches, there are the true believers who do their best to suck people into believing hateful things, and then there are those sorts of people who maybe don't believe any of the hate and don't really think deeply about what their church stands for, they just think it is fun. 

There is one local hipster church used to do this thing where a big group would bombard a grocery store, asking people if they want a gift of free money. Of course, if you say yes they immediately start trying to convert you. If you say no they get thrown off because that wasn't part of their script and they couldn't have a conversation outside of their script. I'm guessing people complained to the grocery store because they no longer do that and it was something they were super proud of doing. 

 

 

[quiversR4hunting]

7 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

This is some nonsense I will never understand. It's like hating Jewish people when Jesus was a practicing Jew! Catholics were the first "Christians". These ignorant folks have never been to a Mass, with all the bible reading and praying and Jesus worship. I hate ignorance.

Confession time (no pun intended): I flirted with becoming Catholic. But RCIA ain't no joke, it was a nine month commitment. My daughter loves it, but she is more conservative than I am (role reversal)! she is young but cannot stand hipster churches, she tried them and her spiritual needs just were not met. 

Exactly! (first paragraph)

(Re- 2nd- paragraph) yeah, RCIA is not joke. People outside the Catholic church have no idea what means to join the Catholic church. We (Catholics) want to make sure you really understand what you are agreeing too. And believe me, I have never been to a theater production* catholic mass because they don't exist. 

Majority of Catholics don't know what it means to just go and join a non-catholic church, I think several would wonder why there isn't a block of classes to learn about the faith they are exploring. For me, I wouldn't know where to start if I was going to stop being Catholic. (After reading FJ, I have a better idea on where start.) I actually think, if I ever decided not to be Catholic, I would just stop going to church and read on my own. 

*"theater production" is what I think of many hipster/mega churches. Lots of sounds, lights, music and it is a show, like going to the theater. To me, it seems like there is little reverence in the services. 

[AmazonGrace]

7 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

They all seem to dress the same and make the same generic "spiritual" social media posts.

 

 

This reminds me of this hilarious story: https://www.npr.org/2019/03/10/702063209/man-inadvertently-proves-that-hipsters-look-alike-by-mistaking-photo-as-himself?t=1580236630559

[feministxtian]

I don't know what you'd make of my church...yeah, we have a coffee bar, a rock band, kids' stuff, but we also have small groups that meet at breweries, liberal democrats in the congregation (and pastoral staff), a pastor who admits he doesn't like "church", all kinds of stuff like that. Oh, and our pastor also has a MDiv and is working on a PhD. So, make of it what you will. 

[formergothardite]

2 hours ago, feministxtian said:

a pastor who admits he doesn't like "church

This statement always confuses me and if I'm being honest I tend to roll my eyes when someone tells me that.  Especially for pastors(I've heard several pastors say this), why is someone leading a organization that they don't like. 

Now I understand you put church in quotes. But what does it actually mean? What is the church they don't like? If they don't like the entire structure of a church, why even bother? 

While I personally love old hymns and organs for church music, I understand that doesn't appeal to everyone. People should go where they enjoy it and hopefully hate and bigotry isn't being taught. 

 

[Marmion]

A number of the churches mentioned at the very least have cause for concern , if not constitute outright cults .  

11 hours ago, Cat Damon said:

I've written about one that I know of in my city (Indianapolis) called iTown, which apparently means "Indy town" and they are just like all of these. I used to work with someone who still goes there. She and her husband used to live in California when some iTown members came and did a "mission trip" at the LA Dream Center (which also sounds similar). They literally sold all of their possessions and drove from California to Indiana with what they could fit in their car. 

She also quit where we worked so she could do their "leadership academy". To me, it sounded like she was paying hundreds, if not a couple thousand, dollars to basically be an intern at their campus and help with parking and serving coffee. 

https://itownchurch.com/ 

This church is associated with ARC. http://thewartburgwatch.com/permpage-the-arc-association-of-related-churches-is-planting-churches-looking-for-flowers-and-scoping-out-demons/    

 

13 hours ago, Katzchen24 said:

Have you heard of the C3 Global Church? We've got these popping up all over the place in Australia and they are quite aggressively expansionist. There's one about 10 minutes drive from me. From the C3 website "With over 300 churches in 64 countries, we are rapidly moving towards the 2020 Vision of 1,000 churches with an average membership of 500 people planted by the year 2020."

They are not entirely squeaky clean (Multimillion dollar Australian megachurch now courting NYCS hipsters), with other accusations of extorting money from the congregation. According to one congregant 'giving was described as a “seed” that had to be watered continually for a “big blessing” to come' which sounds horribly prosperity gospel to me. 

From what I have gathered from Wikipedia , there is some concerning controversy surrounding them .  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/C3_Church_Global#Criticism_and_controversy   

16 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

That Mosaic Church has a list of by-laws and a constitution that are nothing but a giant red flag to me.

Considering the ways one can leave that "church" it sounds more like the Hotel California than anything else:

These people may be young, serve the designer coffee, have musical praise bands, and wear the flannel shirts, but they're still a bunch of controlling, fundie ass hats.

And finally , I found this blog which expresses such concerns that others have had about this group .  

https://is-mosaic-a-cult.blogspot.com  

[feministxtian]

32 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

This statement always confuses me and if I'm being honest I tend to roll my eyes when someone tells me that.  Especially for pastors(I've heard several pastors say this), why is someone leading a organization that they don't like. 

For our church is more of the ideas of conservative dress, looking down your nose at someone, being 'holier than thou" about things. We're an open and accepting church, nobody gives a damn about your past, who you love, how you dress, what kind of car you drive, what color your hair is or how many tattoos you have. Our pastor has tats, our youth pastor (female) has a full sleeve from shoulder to fingers, and more elsewhere, her current hairstyle is a half mohawk dyed purple. We've had people visit the church and walk out before the service even started. You'll hear some profanity in the large area outside the auditorium, none of us are "pure". Our pastor is a good guy, he and I are actually a lot alike and we've had many conversations over coffee about that. I was beyond shocked when he showed up in a suit and tie for David's funeral. It was literally the first time I'd seen him that dressed up! We don't have many (if any) homeschooling families, lots of single parents, working couples. Nobody literally gives a shit about it. 

[Howl]

8 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

@Howl, thanks for creating this topic, I'm enjoying the discussion and have though about this a lot. It's almost like the more hipster a church is, the less it is likely to be open and afffirming, or liberal. Some "high" traditional, liturgical churches are more accepting of everyone! 

You're welcome!  I'm in awe at the robust and very interesting responses. 

I went for a bike ride today -- there were just two of us because of some confusion about the meeting place for our group ride.  My fellow cyclist had just returned from Central America to witness students from an impoverished community graduate from both high school and university. 

His wife's church, a long established downtown church, had adopted this community to rebuild homes and schools after a hurricane had decimated their favela.  Another aspect was to establish scholarships, which are now getting students through middle school, high school and university.  In this particular country, students must pay tuition to attend school after 6th grade, and most families simply can't pay. This blew me away.  Children of parents who could neither read or write were graduating from university, because a church in another country cared about them and used their resources to make a huge difference. 

And when I say impoverished community -- people were living under trees because their favela had been leveled in the storm and they had zip resources to rebuild. 

Also, for the students attending university, the sponsoring church pays 100% of the costs for a student to attend university:  room, board, tuition, books, other expenses like laptops or other supplies, because these kids literally have nothing  -- no money and no resources.  

Edited January 29, 2020 by Howl

[Cleopatra7]

An interesting article about the C3 churches:

https://www.topic.com/the-brand-is-belief
 

The people associated with C3 use the term “authenticity” a lot, but something about it seems really fake, which I guess is inevitable if you rely so heavily on Instagram to market your organization. I wonder what percentage of the membership is older. Not necessarily senior citizen, but just Gen X or even older millennial. C3 and others like it seem very focused on an appeal to youth and beautiful people that there doesn’t seem to be much room for people who are out of the 18-35 demographic or even young people with average looks.

[Katzchen24]

1 hour ago, Cleopatra7 said:

An interesting article about the C3 churches:

https://www.topic.com/the-brand-is-belief
 

The people associated with C3 use the term “authenticity” a lot, but something about it seems really fake, which I guess is inevitable if you rely so heavily on Instagram to market your organization. I wonder what percentage of the membership is older. Not necessarily senior citizen, but just Gen X or even older millennial. C3 and others like it seem very focused on an appeal to youth and beautiful people that there doesn’t seem to be much room for people who are out of the 18-35 demographic or even young people with average looks.

Wow, that was an interesting read. Sometimes I think (as a Gen X-er and nominally middle-aged person) that I just don't get the happy-clappy style of service. To give context, back in the day when I was a regular churchgoer, I would always get up extra early so I could go to the spoken word service - no hymns, no songs, no music. To my mind, if I couldn't get close to God in the quiet, then I certainly couldn't do it dancing and singing and carrying on.

I guess 'authenticity' can mean many things to many people, and the way a service is conducted is irrelevant as long as the meaning and understanding  of the worship is preserved. Having said that, I find these churches 'wrong', but perhaps that's because I'm not accustomed to them. I'm guessing the less-than-beautiful are marginalised within the church community, and anyone who is non-cis and non-binary is definitely not welcomed. These hipster churches aren't progress, they're more of a side-step. 

It also occurred to me that they are definitely the sort of place I can see Jeremy and Jinger Vuolo heading up in the future. 

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Katzchen24
I write stuff wrong.

[danvillebelle]

17 hours ago, nausicaa said:

I just have never had this overwhelming sense of needing to belong. I'm not going to cook with a hotpot just because everyone else is doing it, or wear shoes I don't really like because they're the trend. I watch female former classmates maniacally talk about these churches and their MLMs and "mom squads" on FB and realize I'm missing some type of internal programming. 

Also, let's be real--the theology is incredibly shallow. So not only would I have to hang out with the boring followers from high school, I gotta hang out with the dumb ones. Thanks but no thanks. Give me a head covering Catholic to argue about Chesterton with any day.

Get outta my head!  Soul sistah.  

[Smee]

Are C3 what was once called “Christian City Church”? They’re Pentecostal, right?

I wonder if my church and the ones I’ve been to in the past would be considered “hipster fundie”. I’ve never attended a church I couldn’t wear jeans or was judged for my brightly coloured hair, and songs have always been done with guitar and electric piano, often drums, rather than an organ. Morning tea after the service (get your own tea/coffee from the urn and we’ll hand around a plate of cookies or cake while everyone chats) has also been the norm. It never struck me as a “cool kid” thing, just the way worship and fellowship adapted to suit the way people comfortably dress and behave and the types of things they enjoy. I don’t believe church is meant to feel like a chore in order to be genuinely reverent, and I do connect with modern church music, even write some.

Then again, I totally side eye Hillsong and the “mega” churches in my area (one called The Grainery, one called Life Church) where the band is singing the same songs with the same instruments but has somehow made performance the focus. I hear things about prosperity gospel and weak theology, whereas at least I know my church runs a food bank,  supports local women’s shelters, connects with established long-term missions rather than short-term missioncations, and doesn’t hide what we believe. 

[Katzchen24]

4 minutes ago, Smee said:

Are C3 what was once called “Christian City Church”? They’re Pentecostal, right?

Yes, they were once called that. The  Wiki page for Phil Pringle says "He is the senior pastor of C3 Church Sydney (formerly known as Christian City Church)"

I don't know what makes a Pentecostal, but article 7 of what they believe is:

"In the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a gift available to believers subsequent to the new birth, with normal evidence of speaking in other tongues"

Isn't speaking in tongues a Pentacostal thing?

[formergothardite]

Elevation Church is a big one in parts of NC. It is shady as hell. They seem to still to have the typical Baptist beliefs but present themselves as being "cooler". They claimed to have spontaneous baptisms that were miracles, but they ended up being not so spontaneous. The pastor, Steven Furtick, created the most over the top video in response to legitimate concerns about the church.